The stable genius will wreck the GOP for a generation.

I disagree. He's been wrong a lot. But when additional data became available he'd get back on the right track. This is far preferable to sticking to a position when you're wrong. And far, far preferable to going with your gut when you have no experience with and little knowledge of what you're dealing with.

There are some parallels between criticism of Fauci and criticism of forecasts, like the ones prepared by IHME/University of Washington, used to estimate cases, deaths, hospital bed and/or ventilator usage. IHME comes up with estimates based on the available data and specific assumptions. When the data changes or the assumptions change, they change their model. And when that happens their predictions can change radically. IHME has been kind of a laughingstock here, as people believed their numbers were far too pessimistic. Well, it turns out it's the other way around. For a given set of assumptions, I'd take their numbers over any of the self professed experts holding political positions. And similarly I'd believe Fauci over any of the politicians in the White House or state houses, even though Fauci has been wrong from time to time.

Fauci has shown himself to be flexible on re-openings, correctly cautioning the nation to proceed with masks and social distancing. Originally Posted by Tiny

A nicely reasoned response.

But, I put the word "wrong" in quotes for a reason. Fauci did take care to hedge his bets and state that the projections could vary a lot depending on how people reacted to them.

Early projections were for 200K or more dead if NOTHING WAS DONE. Then after a month or so of lockdown, that got reduced to 63K deaths. But that was because people changed their behavior and bent the curve. In other words, we had some initial success.

And, as I and many others had predicted, the assholes on this board would use that success to claim that the danger of CV-19 was exaggerated. So the benefits of the lockdown were used as evidence that the lockdown wasn't needed.

But then, we dropped our guard. It wasn't just that we began reopening. It was that people were not wearing masks and not social distancing once the stores, restaurants and bars began to reopen. So, the cases started to take off again.

None of that can be blamed on Fauci. We have known all along - and some people conveniently forget or deny - that the trajectory of the disease changes as people change their behavior.

Fauci cannot control how people react, he can only advise based on how people react. So, he cannot really be wrong in that sense. But, I'm sure he is frustrated and depressed beyond belief that his warnings have not been sufficiently heeded and have been undermined to a large degree by Trump.

I don't remember if Fauci was one of the ones who said early on that masks weren't necessary. If he did, he was wrong. But the question remains whether that was deliberate or a good-faith mistake.

It is widely believed that early on disease experts may have deliberately lied and said that masks were unnecessary to prevent the general population from wiping out the mask supply and preventing the doctors and nurses from getting the supplies they needed. If so, it was a well-intentioned lie, but a lie nonetheless.

Alternatively, it could have been a good faith mistake if experts believed that the disease was not able to spread until you began to show symptoms.

OK

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-wh...he-coronavirus

So when Dr. Fauci told us that there was no need to change our behavior, he was just laying out a broad range of possibilities? Because that sounds like a pretty definitive statement.

But Dr. Fauci, like Trump but with admittedly a lot more authority on the subject, told us what he believed at the time with the information he had at the time but it turns out he was wrong just like Trump has been wrong, just like the CDC and the WHO have been wrong.

It is completely ridiculous and naive to try and make the case that Dr. Fauci was never wrong, he was but so was everybody else.

But with people like yourself, it is so important that you make Trump look wrong that you say things easily proven wrong because you just can't help yourself. It's that TDS that keeps people like you saying things you can't back up.

Dr. Fauci has not been right in everything he has said if you like that better than saying he has been wrong but he did not do it out of malice, try to make us believe things that weren't true. He said what he said at the time he said it based on a long career of dealing with infectious diseases.

I don't hold any of this against Dr. Fauci because people make mistakes even experts but then I don't hate Dr. Fauci like you do Trump and would never have brought up his mistakes if you hadn't asked for proof and I can't wait to hear you explain how assuring us that we would not have to change our behavior was anything other than a mistake, an honest mistake but a mistake none the less and I'd also bet you knew all this but that damn TDS just wouldn't allow you to admit it. Pitiful.
Originally Posted by HedonistForever

Look at what you are citing: White House sources, including anonynmous ones, that are trying to build a case against Fauci to try to make Trump look better.

That is not exactly an unbiased source. I would dispute half of the characterizations in that article, but I'm not going to pick through it.

Suffice it to say, I remember the early press briefings where Fauci and Birx would issue warnings about the seriousness of the situation - only to be undermined minutes later by Trump trying to put a bright spin on everything.

And even then, I think Trump was trying to muzzle Fauci from truly speaking his mind freely. Given free rein, I'm sure Fauci would have been more dire.

I don't remember if Fauci was one of the ones who said early on that masks weren't necessary. If he did, he was wrong. But the question remains whether that was deliberate or a good-faith mistake.

It is widely believed that early on disease experts may have deliberately lied and said that masks were unnecessary to prevent the general population from wiping out the mask supply and preventing the doctors and nurses from getting the supplies they needed. If so, it was a well-intentioned lie, but a lie nonetheless.

Alternatively, it could have been a good faith mistake if experts believed that the disease was not able to spread until you began to show symptoms. Originally Posted by Kinkster90210

I believe Fauci was saying don't wear a mask when the CDC said don't wear a mask. Both were probably handicapped by thinking about this epidemic like influenza. If you've got influenza, you usually know it. You're not likely asymptomatic. Also, unlike Covid-19, with influenza you don't walk around contagious but without symptoms for 5 or 6 days before you start feeling bad. So, the standard advice with influenza is to wear a mask if you've got symptoms, otherwise don't bother.

I don't believe the research clearly shows a benefit for all people wearing masks to prevent spread of influenza.

This was not the case for coronaviruses. There were some studies, from memory a total of 7, that did show benefit from masking up when the MERS and SARS coronaviruses were spreading in Asia. And as we got further into the Covid 19 epidemic there were more studies. People were looking at how likely hospital personnel were to become infected by Covid 19 if they were masked all the time, versus not wearing masks. Also people looked at what happened in the Asian countries, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, which adopted universal masking earlier on, and places like Austria and Germany that started a little later. Finally there were studies where people would cough through masks and then they'd measure how far the virus was transported. It became obvious, IMHO, that universal masking was key to stopping the spread of the virus, without decimating the economy.

And yes,the desire to make sure masks didn't end up like toilet paper, so that health care workers wouldn't be able to get enough, played a big part in the CDC's initial recommendations and probably also in Fauci's.

Look at what you are citing:



Ah! Yes! The "look who you are citing" argument which is what one does when they can't dispute what was said. These were quotes by Fauci that can be found in 100 publications because he is on record as having said them. Don't believe me, ask Tiny



White House sources, including anonynmous ones, that are trying to build a case against Fauci to try to make Trump look better.


These were the words that came out of Fauci's mouth and they wouldn't change if the NYT's or the WaPO wrote the story


That is not exactly an unbiased source. I would dispute half of the characterizations in that article, but I'm not going to pick through it.


No you couldn't because you couldn't find a single article to say that Fauci didn't say that. As a matter of fact, I distinctly remember watching the press conference in which he said it. So unless somebody dubbed his speech, that is exactly what he said but I understand you have no other argument so you use the "I don't have time to dispute it".


Suffice it to say, I remember the early press briefings where Fauci and Birx would issue warnings about the seriousness of the situation - only to be undermined minutes later by Trump trying to put a bright spin on everything.


I can't argue that. Far too often Trump tried to spin it with his now famous "the sun/ heat will kill the virus, just wait for summer". Yes, Trump is his own worst enemy on any subject you choose but that doesn't alter the fact that Dr. Fauci said things that were flat out wrong.


And even then, I think Trump was trying to muzzle Fauci from truly speaking his mind freely. Given free rein, I'm sure Fauci would have been more dire. Originally Posted by Kinkster90210

I don't think Dr. Fauci ever thought he couldn't say what he wanted to say and over time his predictions did become more dire which disputes the conclusion you just drew.



The important thing to remember now, not "In the beginning", is that Governor's have been making these decisions for months now, not Trump so this second wave if that's what it is being called, would be the fault of the Governors but of course the media will say the ones like Republican Desantis here in Florida, are just doing Trump's bidding as if he had no mind of his own.


I just heard Nancy Pelosi say, on the subject of opening the schools, that the kids going back to school will be the worst thing we could do because it will absolutely spread the virus. This is contrary to ALL the science and contrary to literally every country in the world that has sent it's kids back to school and in some countries never shut the schools down. Think the MSM will correct Ms. Pelosi? Nope, they will not, the narrative they are selling is to important. Doesn't matter if Trump is right, they can not afford to give him a win this close to the election and that's just fucking sad.

I don't think Dr. Fauci ever thought he couldn't say what he wanted to say and over time his predictions did become more dire which disputes the conclusion you just drew.



The important thing to remember now, not "In the beginning", is that Governor's have been making these decisions for months now, not Trump so this second wave if that's what it is being called, would be the fault of the Governors but of course the media will say the ones like Republican Desantis here in Florida, are just doing Trump's bidding as if he had no mind of his own.


I just heard Nancy Pelosi say, on the subject of opening the schools, that the kids going back to school will be the worst thing we could do because it will absolutely spread the virus. This is contrary to ALL the science and contrary to literally every country in the world that has sent it's kids back to school and in some countries never shut the schools down. Think the MSM will correct Ms. Pelosi? Nope, they will not, the narrative they are selling is to important. Doesn't matter if Trump is right, they can not afford to give him a win this close to the election and that's just fucking sad. Originally Posted by HedonistForever

according to these stupid Democrat Politicians this Virus is so rampant, we should be able to see the dam thing. They're just playing with us that's all they are doing. I know of a guy who went to get tested they took his information and he had to wait to be tested.He told the Nurse he couldn't wait any longer so he left. A few days later they called him and said he tested positive for Covid-19, he told them he never took the test. That's how bogus the testing is it's pure shit. The spikes in cases is because people are getting tested with inaccurate tests. This is all done by design. The majority of people are dumb enough to fall for this shit.

Read this article:

https://www.startribune.com/inside-t...rus/571821141/

Trump was basically wishing away the pandemic. A total putz.

He is going to get erased in November. I can't wait to see how he reacts to a landslide loss.

Make your predictions as to how he will react:

1) Try to contest everything and file lawsuits alleging fraud? Eventually getting dragged out of the WH by Secret Service?

2) Crawl into a shell and disappear from public view? Basically leave the WH early and leave Pence to run things in absentia?

3) Actually resign and make Pence the literal POTUS?

4) Do utterly insane things that force the Cabinet to remove him?

Make your predictions? I'm going with 1)

Read this article:

https://www.startribune.com/inside-t...rus/571821141/

Trump was basically wishing away the pandemic. A total putz.

He is going to get erased in November. I can't wait to see how he reacts to a landslide loss.

Make your predictions as to how he will react:

1) Try to contest everything and file lawsuits alleging fraud? Eventually getting dragged out of the WH by Secret Service?

2) Crawl into a shell and disappear from public view? Basically leave the WH early and leave Pence to run things in absentia?

3) Actually resign and make Pence the literal POTUS?

4) Do utterly insane things that force the Cabinet to remove him?

Make your predictions? I'm going with 1) Originally Posted by Kinkster90210

You can't refute what I said about Fauci and the comments he made early on, that we wouldn't have to change our behavior so you "pivot" which was expected and didn't come as a surprise.


So let's look a bit more closely to you "pivot".


Yes, it could be described as Trump was "wishing away" the pandemic with some of the words he used but that would imply, by itself, that this is all he did which would not be the truth. He put together the task force with Dr. Fauci at it's head and held informative news conferences every single day. That is considerably more than doing nothing more than "wishing it away" but then if one is a Trump hater, which you appear to be, that is how you present your narrative, a false narrative.


Then comes the next false narrative, that Trump tried to "push" this all onto the states when the truth is ( I'll bet you hate that word ) that the states "DEMANDED" that they have control and responsibility with Governor Cuomo leading the way.


Yes, Trump incorrectly said he had complete authority and he was quickly and correctly reminded that he did not. This of course came at practically the same time the Governors were saying he wasn't doing enough. So in effect, no matter what Trump was doing, maybe not "enough" in the eyes of some but was doing plenty. Of course as with many things, one can do "plenty" and it still isn't enough as the various Governor's soon found out.


In the article you provided, it said this

But their ultimate goal was to shift responsibility for leading the fight against the pandemic from the White House to the states. They referred to this as “state authority handoff,” and it was at the heart of what would become at once a catastrophic policy blunder and an attempt to escape blame for a crisis that had engulfed the country.

As I explained above, this is a false and misleading narrative done on purpose of course and people like you perpetuate it instead of challenging it but then I don't know whether you are actually intelligent enough to figure this out or you are smart enough to understand it but don't care because it is the narrative you want presented, truthful or not which is about 99% of what the MSM reports because they hate Trump and that is infinitely more important than reporting the truth.


Again, Trump didn't shift responsibility. He stated he had the ultimate decision making responsibility admittedly an incorrect thing to say but then he does that A LOT! But Cuomo said NO Mr. President, you do not have the ultimate say, I and the other Governor's do and he was right.


The one thing a President did have a responsibility to do was be prepared. When Trump took office, the previous Obama administration did not leave the country prepared with enough PPE to counter any pandemic which he saw first hand during his administration. So Obama didn't leave the nation prepared and Trump didn't correct it. That is the truth and that is what should have been reported but it wasn't and we all know why, well, some of us knew it, some of us probably knew it but it didn't matter. Discrediting Trump and there is plenty to discredit, was the goal and remains the goal.


Wouldn't it be helpful if everybody just told the damn truth and we draw our conclusions on who was responsible for what and what kind of a job did they do?


Trump doesn't get an "A" but he certainly doesn't deserve an "F".


If it wasn't so damn serious, it would be amusing how Cuomo comes out of this as a hero according to his brother at CNN and most of the rest of the MSM, while he is under investigation in New York, ( something only Fox reports to my knowledge ) for being culpably negligent in the deaths of thousands of elderly persons in nursing homes by demanding that positive testing COVID patients be returned to the nursing homes were they were living because at the time the hospitals were filling up quickly. Cuomo's latter excuse was that the nursing homes SHOULD have been prepared, after all, they were health care facilities but they were not prepared and according to some news reports, they told the governor so but it didn't matter, he could blame them when non positive patients in the homes were placed in the same rooms with positive patients. The nursing homes should have been better prepared he said. How's that coming from a Governor who wasn't prepared.



That is what happened and yet the MSM will not report this. Instead, they chose to report that Trump tried to shift responsibility to the states when the truth is, he was fighting to keep control but the Governor's said NO, that responsibility is ours.


And that as Paul Harvey use to say, is the rest of the story.

Make your predictions as to how he will react:

1) Try to contest everything and file lawsuits alleging fraud? Eventually getting dragged out of the WH by Secret Service?

Make your predictions? I'm going with 1) Originally Posted by Kinkster90210

That's helpful in determining your "mind set". So you think the Secret Service will have to drag Trump out of the White do you? That's sounds like a reasonable response from a reasonable man..... NOT!



It merely places you smack dab in the middle of the "pack" not of reasonable men but the mob, willing to say even ridiculous things to express your hatred. Congrats, you defined yourself nicely.


Yeah, Trump may wreck the Republican party for 2020 but you can bet your life savings, that "these" Democrats will fuck up so bad, Republicans will again be considered in 2022 in the House and Senate and the White House in 2024 when "Make America Great Again" I predict, will have even more meaning than it did in 2016 because if these Democrats increase corporate taxes, strip away all the deregulation Trump put in place and raise taxes on the middle class which they will absolutely have to do even if it is round about like higher energy costs when they return America to the control of OPEC, taking away the advantage it took us decades to get, just like Obama lost a thousand legislative seats and control over the Hose and Senate albeit short, Republicans will return when Trump is gone and Democrats have shown us what they will try and shove down the throats of a capitalist nation.

If we are able to have free elections in 2022.

Libdem radicals will do everything possible to prevent that ever again.

Wreaker of Status quo , in both parties

You can't refute what I said about Fauci and the comments he made early on, that we wouldn't have to change our behavior so you "pivot" which was expected and didn't come as a surprise.


So let's look a bit more closely to you "pivot".


Yes, it could be described as Trump was "wishing away" the pandemic with some of the words he used but that would imply, by itself, that this is all he did which would not be the truth. He put together the task force with Dr. Fauci at it's head and held informative news conferences every single day. That is considerably more than doing nothing more than "wishing it away" but then if one is a Trump hater, which you appear to be, that is how you present your narrative, a false narrative.


Then comes the next false narrative, that Trump tried to "push" this all onto the states when the truth is ( I'll bet you hate that word ) that the states "DEMANDED" that they have control and responsibility with Governor Cuomo leading the way.


Yes, Trump incorrectly said he had complete authority and he was quickly and correctly reminded that he did not. This of course came at practically the same time the Governors were saying he wasn't doing enough. So in effect, no matter what Trump was doing, maybe not "enough" in the eyes of some but was doing plenty. Of course as with many things, one can do "plenty" and it still isn't enough as the various Governor's soon found out.


In the article you provided, it said this





As I explained above, this is a false and misleading narrative done on purpose of course and people like you perpetuate it instead of challenging it but then I don't know whether you are actually intelligent enough to figure this out or you are smart enough to understand it but don't care because it is the narrative you want presented, truthful or not which is about 99% of what the MSM reports because they hate Trump and that is infinitely more important than reporting the truth.


Again, Trump didn't shift responsibility. He stated he had the ultimate decision making responsibility admittedly an incorrect thing to say but then he does that A LOT! But Cuomo said NO Mr. President, you do not have the ultimate say, I and the other Governor's do and he was right.


The one thing a President did have a responsibility to do was be prepared. When Trump took office, the previous Obama administration did not leave the country prepared with enough PPE to counter any pandemic which he saw first hand during his administration. So Obama didn't leave the nation prepared and Trump didn't correct it. That is the truth and that is what should have been reported but it wasn't and we all know why, well, some of us knew it, some of us probably knew it but it didn't matter. Discrediting Trump and there is plenty to discredit, was the goal and remains the goal.


Wouldn't it be helpful if everybody just told the damn truth and we draw our conclusions on who was responsible for what and what kind of a job did they do?


Trump doesn't get an "A" but he certainly doesn't deserve an "F".


If it wasn't so damn serious, it would be amusing how Cuomo comes out of this as a hero according to his brother at CNN and most of the rest of the MSM, while he is under investigation in New York, ( something only Fox reports to my knowledge ) for being culpably negligent in the deaths of thousands of elderly persons in nursing homes by demanding that positive testing COVID patients be returned to the nursing homes were they were living because at the time the hospitals were filling up quickly. Cuomo's latter excuse was that the nursing homes SHOULD have been prepared, after all, they were health care facilities but they were not prepared and according to some news reports, they told the governor so but it didn't matter, he could blame them when non positive patients in the homes were placed in the same rooms with positive patients. The nursing homes should have been better prepared he said. How's that coming from a Governor who wasn't prepared.



That is what happened and yet the MSM will not report this. Instead, they chose to report that Trump tried to shift responsibility to the states when the truth is, he was fighting to keep control but the Governor's said NO, that responsibility is ours.


And that as Paul Harvey use to say, is the rest of the story.
Originally Posted by HedonistForever

Give it up, dickhead.

I'm not pivoting because I have no intention of responding point-by-point to your 10-15 paragraph screeds that parse every word that Fauci said to try to make him out to be a liar, while conveniently overlooking every lie from Trump. The whole point of this thread (RE-READ the title) was that Trump would wreck the GOP for a generation. YOU, not ME, pivoted this thread into a discussion of Fauci's veracity. So consider:

First, no arguing will convince you. You are desperate to clear Trump in a vain hope of winning in November. Too late. No amount of spin is going to save him. I just hope he doesn't wreck the GOP.

Second, you will resolve any ambiguous wording by Fauci against him and any ambiguous working by Trump or others in favor of them and against Fauci.

Third, of necessity, as more and more information came out about the nature of CV-19, the consensus of the scientific community changed about the mechanism of how the disease spreads. This requires Fauci and other scientists to revise predictions and change their advise. That is the nature of science and it does not mean they lied. But that is nuanced and zealots like you don't understand that.

In sum, Fauci has been a paragon of accuracy and honesty compared to Trump and Fauci's other detractors.

I'm done responding to this diversion.

That's helpful in determining your "mind set". So you think the Secret Service will have to drag Trump out of the White do you? That's sounds like a reasonable response from a reasonable man..... NOT!

It merely places you smack dab in the middle of the "pack" not of reasonable men but the mob, willing to say even ridiculous things to express your hatred. Congrats, you defined yourself nicely.

Yeah, Trump may wreck the Republican party for 2020 but you can bet your life savings, that "these" Democrats will fuck up so bad, Republicans will again be considered in 2022 in the House and Senate and the White House in 2024 when "Make America Great Again" I predict, will have even more meaning than it did in 2016 because if these Democrats increase corporate taxes, strip away all the deregulation Trump put in place and raise taxes on the middle class which they will absolutely have to do even if it is round about like higher energy costs when they return America to the control of OPEC, taking away the advantage it took us decades to get, just like Obama lost a thousand legislative seats and control over the Hose and Senate albeit short, Republicans will return when Trump is gone and Democrats have shown us what they will try and shove down the throats of a capitalist nation. Originally Posted by HedonistForever

Christ, you write the most insane run-on sentences this side of UHB.

Do you really expect anyone to pick apart your semi-literate drivel?

Or am I pivoting again?

Give it up, dickhead.

I'm not pivoting because I have no intention of responding point-by-point to your 10-15 paragraph screeds that parse every word that Fauci said to try to make him out to be a liar, while conveniently overlooking every lie from Trump. The whole point of this thread (RE-READ the title) was that Trump would wreck the GOP for a generation. YOU, not ME, pivoted this thread into a discussion of Fauci's veracity. So consider:

First, no arguing will convince you. You are desperate to clear Trump in a vain hope of winning in November. Too late. No amount of spin is going to save him. I just hope he doesn't wreck the GOP.

Second, you will resolve any ambiguous wording by Fauci against him and any ambiguous working by Trump or others in favor of them and against Fauci.

Third, of necessity, as more and more information came out about the nature of CV-19, the consensus of the scientific community changed about the mechanism of how the disease spreads. This requires Fauci and other scientists to revise predictions and change their advise. That is the nature of science and it does not mean they lied. But that is nuanced and zealots like you don't understand that.

In sum, Fauci has been a paragon of accuracy and honesty compared to Trump and Fauci's other detractors.

I'm done responding to this diversion. Originally Posted by Kinkster90210

Christ, you write the most insane run-on sentences this side of UHB.

Do you really expect anyone to pick apart your semi-literate drivel?

Or am I pivoting again? Originally Posted by Kinkster90210

you are pivoting and you are done.


BAHHAAA

you are pivoting and you are done.
BAHHAAA Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

How so, Wacko?

I said I wasn't going to pick apart his illiterate argument one by one and I didn't.

I never said I wasn't going to respond to any of his posts ever again. The second post just pointed out that he is a terrible writer.

How so, Wacko?

I said I wasn't going to pick apart his illiterate argument one by one and I didn't.

I never said I wasn't going to respond to any of his posts ever again. The second post just pointed out that he is a terrible writer. Originally Posted by Kinkster90210

if yous say so