What is the definition of "POOR" in America?

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You "called me out" how? By proposing a silly bet? Please. Why would i take your bet? If i lose, i leave the board....and if i win, it would only prove your willingness to use more than one screen name, so you'd just take a third screen name and continue posting. Heads you win, tails i lose. Besides, what makes you think i want you and Marshall to leave? Just for shits and giggles though, exactly how would you propose proving that you're not Marshall? ... Originally Posted by Doove

What? Do you lack an imagination to find out for yourself? On an SHMB? I'm telling you if you are right, I'm gone for good. Are you saying that if you signed off, you might take another screen name to continue posting? Or is it that you don't believe people actually have integrity? I still think you are just an instigator. I have a relative just like you.

You know you want us to leave, because you don't have anything of substance to add, all you do is antagonize to incite. It's always been the left that trys to stifle opposition, otherwise known as free speech. I'm ammused by your lack of courage. Although, I want you to take the bet, it would not be beneficial having you gone, since you are proof that your ideology is emotional and not factual.

I wonder where you got your role data from? You declair what makes up the "majority" based upon what data/evidence?

Let me ask you:

A child grows up a simgle parent family with the (ususally) mother woring a job and a half to two jobs at min wage to feed them and live someplace safe.

The school system "graduates" people from HS who read at the third grade level and can't do long division, fractions, or word problems (i.e. can't apply math to real world).

The only financially successful role model in their neighborhood is the drug dealer, and they experiment with some weed and get caught.

They are now 18, have only seen dysfuctional examples of what a family is like, and illiterate, but those in authority (and it's in both political parties) said they have all the skills they need because they got a piece of paper saying so. They have a criminal record for smoking pot and the uber-righteous think that should be a permanent qualifyer from many good jobs.

So tell me, do they really have opportunity? Originally Posted by Old-T

YES! * Opportunity was present the entire time!

Lack of goals , lack of focus , lack of drive & ambition are qualities which I used to define "poor".

Thank You for providing an excellent example!

We quite obviously, have different expectations from our fellow citizens.

People who work, even at low wage jobs, learn job skills which allow them to move up to higher paying jobs......you don't get to start out at CEO, you have to work your way up from the bottom.....most people do...... Originally Posted by Marshall

Starting at the bottom hardly ever leads to climbing above the middle of the pack, and usually not even that high. Just as the stupid BCS system, if you don't get brought in near the top you will have very, very long odds to reach the upper strata.

Study after study says the biggest predictor to reach the top in their career: be the son of someone who made it to the top.

While I believe our system is the best that has been found to date, it is far from equal. Be born into a poor economic situation and you have far greater chance of dieing poor. That land of equal opportunity is a myth. Hard work does help, hard work can improve one's lot in life. and then there is Paris Hilton.

YES! * Opportunity was present the entire time!

Lack of goals , lack of focus , lack of drive & ambition are qualities which I used to define "poor".

Thank You for providing an excellent example!

We quite obviously, have different expectations from our fellow citizens. Originally Posted by MrGiz

Truly amazing. And sad.

Tell me, how many successful people do you know from those starting points?

How many do you know from two parent families and good educational systems?

Real numbers, real people, not the exception or the rumor. Yes, the Abe Lincolns do exist, but those are the far fringe of the statistical distributions. Get born into a successful family and the odds are heavily stacked that you will be successful. Get born into a poor family and the odds are heavyly stacked that you will remain lower middle class at best.

Or do you believe that being born poor was due to your inherent lack of drive, focus, etc.?

Darwinism does live, and better education, better diet, better opportunities to grow up in a broad set of positive experiences, and a starting nest egg to invest or graduate from college without $60K of debt will statistically out perform the harder working person born without those advantages.

Truly amazing. And sad. Agreed

Tell me, how many successful people do you know from those starting points? several

How many do you know from two parent families and good educational systems? several

Real numbers, real people, not the exception or the rumor. Yes, the Abe Lincolns do exist, but those are the far fringe of the statistical distributions. Get born into a successful family and the odds are heavily stacked that you will be successful. Get born into a poor family and the odds are heavyly stacked that you will remain lower middle class at best.

Or do you believe that being born poor was due to your inherent lack of drive, focus, etc.? * Does the simple bad luck of being born poor absolutely "prevent" success? * What are the usual qualities of those who overcome... luck?

Darwinism does live, and better education, better diet, better opportunities to grow up in a broad set of positive experiences, and a starting nest egg to invest or graduate from college without $60K of debt will statistically out perform the harder working person born without those advantages. Originally Posted by Old-T

You are deliberately dismissing my opinions to satisfy the needs of your defeatist ideology. * That's fine... it is to be expected... the preaching of your ideology helps to ensure it's success. * If you want to play odds... fine, that's easy... I can agree.

If you go back and actually read my words, you will see that I said "too often", the lack of those qualities will define and insure that the poor will remain poor.

Opportunity is the enemy of defeatism.... Truly Amazing... and Sad!

Starting at the bottom hardly ever leads to climbing above the middle of the pack, if you don't get brought in near the top you will have very, very long odds to reach the upper strata.

Study after study says the biggest predictor to reach the top in their career: be the son of someone who made it to the top. Originally Posted by Old-T

If you happen to be born at the bottom , its usually better to not be brought up with the idea that you are doomed to not make it so dont try and by the way ,its all the fault of "rich people"!!LOL!!. It isnt a matter of shooting right to the top on day one, you need to build experience and climbing through the ranks of the MIDDLE CLASS was the way up for along time in this country and that was the beauty of it all.Ideologists know this, thus the onslaught on the middle class at this point in time. Anytime you set the standard that $250,000 is considered "RICH", you have just destroyed initiative, and that is by design.You donot have to be Harvard educated to understand that if you run a small business of limited success, Youll hit the gross $250,000 mark and it sure as hell will not mean you have some large measure of success of a company. Contrary, you now have a company that will be regulated to death and will have more burdens that impede your actuall chances of long term sustainability.You have to kill off ambition in order to really institute fundamental "change".I dont need a "STUDY"...if you want to read them, fine..then what? take their word for them?throw up your hands and say..Oh well??!! guess that means ill never make iT,I mean , LOOK< ITS WRITTEN DOWN RIGHT HERE!!!! IT MUST BE TRUE!!!!! A "SMART " PERSON WROTE IT!!!!LMFAO!! mi es well just not try??!OOhh , WOES ME!LOL!! Nothing pisses an elitist off more than some "dumb HICK" like me with limited education that found a way to emass some success while driving a beat up pickup truck.and worst of all had a BALL doing it!!.LOL!!Lets face it ..well never reach a socialist utopia if theres a bunch of IDIOTS like me running amuck!!!People put farr to much emphasis on money, and use that allusion to divide and a means to keep others down by chipping away at the spirit..I contend that having the ability to start at the bottom regardless of your economic status and possibly rise to wealth is the threat to lefts ideology..I know how Ive been treated...even at the mere hint that I was starting to get a leg up, alot of peoples attitudes and what they percieved is astonishing.

Are you saying that if you signed off, you might take another screen name to continue posting? Originally Posted by DFW5Traveler

You really just make shit up, don't you?

Or is it that you don't believe people actually have integrity?

People, yes. You and Marshall? Ask me again.

I still think you are just an instigator. I have a relative just like you.

What about Marshall? Is he just an instigator in your eyes? Because he is to everyone else.

You know you want us to leave, because you don't have anything of substance to add, all you do is antagonize to incite.

Not sure how that flows, but ok, whatever.

It's always been the left that trys to stifle opposition, otherwise known as free speech.

Yeah, it's the left that was running around for about 80% of the last decade claiming you can't criticize a President in times of war. It's the left that was putting people on their own special "watch lists" for criticizing Bush. You really are absolutely clueless.

I'm ammused by your lack of courage.

Good, because i'm here to amuse.

Although, I want you to take the bet, it would not be beneficial having you gone, since you are proof that your ideology is emotional and not factual.

Says the guy who makes shit up.

You are deliberately dismissing my opinions to satisfy the needs of your defeatist ideology. Originally Posted by MrGiz

Because his dismissing your opinions is based on his facts.

What about Marshall? Is he just an instigator in your eyes? Because he is to everyone else. Originally Posted by Doove

only the angry hate-filled anti-Americans think that of me.....they read my arguements and hate me, because deep down, they know I'm right......

you are an anarchist who just wants to watch the world burn.....

only the angry hate-filled anti-Americans think that of me. Originally Posted by Marshall

PJ? Are you gonna take that from this guy?

Because his dismissing your opinions is based on his facts. Originally Posted by Doove

Keyword , "his"... nevermind mine... thanks for clarifying!

Starting at the bottom hardly ever leads to climbing above the middle of the pack, and usually not even that high. Just as the stupid BCS system, if you don't get brought in near the top you will have very, very long odds to reach the upper strata.

Study after study says the biggest predictor to reach the top in their career: be the son of someone who made it to the top.

While I believe our system is the best that has been found to date, it is far from equal. Be born into a poor economic situation and you have far greater chance of dieing poor. That land of equal opportunity is a myth. Hard work does help, hard work can improve one's lot in life. and then there is Paris Hilton. Originally Posted by Old-T

You don't go stand in a long line at a great restaurant and expect to get in for the next seating. But when your time comes, you will. If admission to the restaurant was purely random or dictated by an external force (e.g., government), you would have little motivation to stand in line.

Equality occurs over time -- not necessarily in one generation. That's the American story -- make a better life for your kids. Most of us were the children or grandchildren of immigrants. Each generation works to better their life and give their children the opportunity to move further up the ladder. That is a powerful motivator.

PJ? Are you gonna take that from this guy? Originally Posted by Doove

Did somebody say something?

Keyword , "his"... nevermind mine... thanks for clarifying! Originally Posted by MrGiz

No, keyword "facts". You simply come across as the little 8 year old sticking his fingers in his ears, yelling "NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA I CAN'T HEAR YOU NA NA NA NA"

Equality occurs over time -- not necessarily in one generation. . Originally Posted by pjorourke

Not that I even agree with you but that is not what Old-T point .


What he basically said and what scientific studies (as opposed to you Ann Rynd believers and your mystical beliefs) have shown is that it is who you are born to. Who your parents are is the greatest determinate of financial success. So work hard to be born to successful parents would be my advice. That is what the facts bare out. If hard work was the over-riding factor as you suggest, ditch diggers would be much wealthier than bankers.

No, keyword "facts". You simply come across as the little 8 year old sticking his fingers in his ears, yelling "NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA I CAN'T HEAR YOU NA NA NA NA" Originally Posted by Doove

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