Confederate flag was the flag of traitors

Secession does not have to include a war. Parts of Massachusetts seceded to help create Maine, parts of Virginia seceded to create West Virginia, parts of Delaware seceded to join Pennsylvania on the same side of the river, and there are a couple of other examples of peaceful secession. Why do you think the map is finished? It was over 50 years between the last redrawing of state lines to the creation of Alaska and Hawaii. It has been 50 years again. Maybe it's time. Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

Your ideas are quaint and I'm certain they make sense to you at 3:15 am when you are sitting around with nothing to do thinking them up. But....again.....the practical reality is that you are imagining things that are never going to happen. Secessions that occurred in the 19th century in Virginia and Pennsylvania are interesting but have no application to political and economic realities in the United States today.

I'm not sure what you mean about "the creation of Alaska and Hawaii" as both of those states had set boundaries at the time they became the 49th and 50th states and neither were "seceding" from any other sovereign entity.

The point is that the vast majority of the citizens of our respective states don't favor secession. In fact, I suspect that a lot of the citizenry would laugh you out of the room for suggesting that "maybe its time." Others would want to tar and feather you for being unpatriotic. But, most, like me....would just think you're a right-wing whackjob jerking himself off with bizarre notions of secession.

Interesting. What part of "freedom of association" offends so many of you? And to bring up the Constitution . . . do you really want to go there? The Constitution these days is nothing more than a quaint relic. It's irrelevant. The reason for many of the secession movements is that very reason. Many would like to reinstitute Constitutional government. You know those people. They're the ones you routinely ridicule. Freedom lovers.

That's the FUCKING constitution to you Bitchlips!

Interesting. What part of "freedom of association" offends so many of you? Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Freedom of association is a right of the individual, not the state. And it is a restriction on the power of the state. It doesn't confer a right to secede on a state. How can you get it that far wrong?

People have rights. States don't have rights, they have powers. The whole "states rights" issue is a misnomer. Powers not delegated to the federal government are reserved to the states. The problem involved in so-called "states rights" is that the federal government frequently tries to slip its leash and intrudes into powers that are supposed to be state powers.

And to bring up the Constitution . . . do you really want to go there? The Constitution these days is nothing more than a quaint relic. It's irrelevant. The reason for many of the secession movements is that very reason. Many would like to reinstitute Constitutional government. You know those people. They're the ones you routinely ridicule. Freedom lovers. Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Horseshit. The secessionists just don't want to pay income taxes. The rest of the Constitutional powers they don't even understand.

If you repealed the 16th Amendment and got rid of the income tax, 95% of the Tea Party types will lose all interest in politics. The problem is they don't have anywhere near the votes to get rid of the income tax and they know it. Even more unfortunately for them (and you), there is no geographical divide between anti-tax types and income redistributionists like there was between abolitionists and slavery supporters like there was during the Civil War. Lots of both types can live on the same street. Except that the anti-tax types are generally outnumbered everywhere. So you are stuck.

Regarding other freedoms like privacy, forget about it. Technology more than anything else has destroyed that. Even if you did somehow start a new country, in 10 years it will have its own intelligence apparatus in place and it will be conducting the same types of surveillance as the NSA and FBI are conducting now.

You're screwed and you know it. So you pout and call yourself a freedom lover.

Not pouting at all, ExGYer. I've accepted the fact that because of people like you this country is no longer, and will never again be, the "Land of the Free and Home of the Brave". So I enjoy life. If clowns like you annoyed me, I wouldn't be here.

But I will stand for freedom as long as I can. But there are too many opposed to freedom for it to prevail. Doesn't mean I'm wrong, or any less passionate. So I've decided to enjoy myself, just to piss the Statists, like you, off.

You don't know the difference between freedom and anarchy.

You're an insignificant old man, embittered by his inability to contribute. So now all you do is piss on those who want to.

sorry Bitch.

FACT JACK!

Not pouting at all, ExGYer. I've accepted the fact that because of people like you this country is no longer, and will never again be, the "Land of the Free and Home of the Brave". So I enjoy life. If clowns like you annoyed me, I wouldn't be here.

But I will stand for freedom as long as I can. But there are too many opposed to freedom for it to prevail. Doesn't mean I'm wrong, or any less passionate. So I've decided to enjoy myself, just to piss the Statists, like you, off. Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Fuck off, old man.

Yssup was right. You DON"T know the difference between freedom and anarchy.

If all of the ideas you have espoused over the years were ever implemented, our cities would look like Stalingrad in February 1943 and we would all be hiding in rundown shacks with triple deadbolts on every door, bars on every window, and a gun in every room in order to avoid the rampant crime outside.

That is what "voluntary" everything gets you. That's the end of the road for purist libertarianism.

My, you guys get quite angry when confronted by the lie you're living. Really? Constitutional liberty, limited government equates to Stalinism? If it makes you feel better . . .

Your ideas are quaint and I'm certain they make sense to you at 3:15 am when you are sitting around with nothing to do thinking them up. The truth be known I am up working on some papers. You may think it is easy coming up with some good, informative questions but it isn't really. Especially when you're talking about gender politics. But....again.....the practical reality is that you are imagining things that are never going to happen. The first step towards anything is to imagine it or didn't you know that? Secessions that occurred in the 19th century in Virginia and Pennsylvania are interesting but have no application to political and economic realities in the United States today. Please tell us why they have no application...what about the 14th amendment? Does that still apply?

I'm not sure what you mean about "the creation of Alaska and Hawaii" as both of those states had set boundaries at the time they became the 49th and 50th states and neither were "seceding" from any other sovereign entity. I was not talking about secession at this point, I was talking about the changing map. The creation of the two states is referring to their constitutions and elections for US representatives. I kind of thought that was obvious...

The point is that the vast majority of the citizens of our respective states don't favor secession. It does not take a majority of anything to affect secession and particularly everyone in the country. What you need is a vocal, active near majority in a centralized location. In fact, I suspect that a lot of the citizenry would laugh you out of the room for suggesting that "maybe its time." Others would want to tar and feather you for being unpatriotic. But, most, like me....would just think you're a right-wing whackjob jerking himself off with bizarre notions of secession. Originally Posted by timpage

I guess this proves you didn't read the link. Left leaning Silicone Valley people are thinking about a form of secession. They're yours.

I guess Thomas Jefferson was wrong when he wrote the Declaration of Independence and Madison was wrong when he wrote the Constitution.

It is Occupy that is not paying taxes. There is nothing in the Constitution that allows or disallows secession. The document is silent on that. This may surprise someone who is so uninformed but the Southern states did everything by the book at the time. They called for Constitutional conventions in their respective states, discussed the issues, and voted to secede. They sent their decision to Washington DC and recalled their representatives. What they did was just as legal as what their grandfathers did in 1776.
You are wrong again, the 10th amendment saves all rights that are not enumerated in the Constitution to the states. Get that? TO THE STATES! States do have rights.
So now you are comparing people who want smaller, responsible government to slave owners! I don't know what you're taking but it must be pretty powerful. Your pathetic insult shows how little understanding that you possess. The Tea Party is not about race it is about a government that is too large and taking too much for things that the Constitution does not allow. If the government followed the constitutional mandate probably half the budget would just zero out. You must like self abuse NYRKR.

Interesting thread......so, I've been around the block a few times and it always puzzles me as to what decade(s) those who bemoan our loss of freedom refer to as they long to return to our glorious past where "freedom and liberty for all" was a reality. Maybe it was when Coal Mine Owners paid miners in company script? Maybe it was during the period from 1929 to post WWII when the nation suffered a great depression? .....or the high taxation rate of the 50's to pay off our WWII debt? Or coal plant pollution in the 50's that rivaled the scenes from present day China? ...or rivers so polluted they caught on fire? Maybe it was during the Cold War when as school children we crawled under our desks to "duck and cover" or built bomb shelters in our basements? Maybe it was the 60's with riots in the streets over race and war?....or the 70's with a Presidential resignation and Oil Embargos? Maybe it was during the 80's with unemployment climbing to over 10% and remaining over 7% for more than 6 years? Just when was it things were so great for all the citizens of this nation? When signs banning Irish, Italians, Jews, and numerous minorities were posted? The good old days never existed.

You talk like society was homogenous. You focus on the bad things but forget that a man could set out into the wilderness and create his own world. Later, a man and a truck could start a business. Ray Kroc started with a single hamburger stand that he bought from someone else. Harlon Saunders had a reciept and a desire but not a million dollars. Dave Thomas, the same. Today it takes a lot of financial backing and support to navigate the paperwork needed to start a business.

if you want to rebut that presumption, then the burden is on YOU to find some official state document that proves that some Confederate state was leaving for some OTHER reason and NOT to preserve slavery. Originally Posted by ExNYer

The burden of proof remains on you, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass! Your racist, dumb fuck Yankee ass initially demanded a "Declaration of Secession of ANY of the Confederate states that is NOT consumed with the issue of slavery."

So, I will ask it again: "Can you point to ANY of the Declarations of Secession of ANY of the Confederate states that is NOT consumed with the issue of slavery?"

Take your time. We'll wait. Originally Posted by ExNYer

Your racist, dumb fuck Yankee ass was given TWO actual declarations of secession (Louisiana and Tennessee) that did not mention slavery! Now your racist, dumb fuck Yankee ass equivocates and deflects and makes additional demands.

Dear Shit-for-Brains:

The only one playing semantic games here is you. "Formal" document titles? Really? The Ordinances don't have the formal titles "Ordinances of Secession", either. Yet you have no trouble locating those.When one Googles the Internet for "Declarations of Secession", you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass, "Ordinances of Secession" is one of the choices.

The argument is WHY the Confederacy seceded. I said it was to preserve slavery. You're lying again, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass. Quite literally this argument is about what was and what was not said in the documents employed by the Confederate states to break ties with the Federal government, you lying, racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass.

You say it wasn't, but then, like an idiot, you try to use the Ordinance of Secession as proof. But the Ordinances don't state REASONS for leaving. That's a lie, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass; see below. What kind of proof is that? Except to an idiot like you.

The Declarations of Secession are the only documents that give full explanations. That's a lie, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jacakss; see below. And they are overwhelmingly focused on preserving slavery.What you cite was for only four states, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass. The only documents that exist for the other nine states represented by stars on the "Stars and Bars" are the "Ordinances" that you try to dismiss as irrelevant, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass.

The fact that not all eleven states of the Confederacy have a Declaration isn't my fault. The "Ordinances" that you try to dismiss as irrelevant, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass, EXIST! But the presumption is that the other states left for the same reason as Texas, Georgia, Mississippi and South Carolina.

if you want to rebut that presumption, then the burden is on YOU to find some official state document that proves that some Confederate state was leaving for some OTHER reason and NOT to preserve slavery. The ordinances don't help because they don't state any reason. Originally Posted by ExNYer

Well, you racist, dumb fuck Yankee jackass, here are TWO more that make no mention of slavery and they DO indict Lincoln for overstepping his constitutional authority and which serves as the 'cause' for those declarations stating those states were withdrawing from the Union:

Arkansas

AN ORDINANCE to dissolve the union now existing between the State of Arkansas and the other States united with her under the compact entitled "The Constitution of the United States of America."

Whereas, in addition to the well-founded causes of complaint set forth by this convention, in resolutions adopted on the 11th of March, A.D. 1861, against the sectional party now in power in Washington City, headed by Abraham Lincoln, he has, in the face of resolutions passed by this convention pledging the State of Arkansas to resist to the last extremity any attempt on the part of such power to coerce any State that had seceded from the old Union, proclaimed to the world that war should be waged against such States until they should be compelled to submit to their rule, and large forces to accomplish this have by this same power been called out, and are now being marshaled to carry out this inhuman design; and to longer submit to such rule, or remain in the old Union of the United States, would be disgraceful and ruinous to the State of Arkansas:

Therefore we, the people of the State of Arkansas, in convention assembled, do hereby declare and ordain, and it is hereby declared and ordained, That the "ordinance and acceptance of compact" passed and approved by the General Assembly of the State of Arkansas on the 18th day of October, A.D. 1836, whereby it was by said General Assembly ordained that by virtue of the authority vested in said General Assembly by the provisions of the ordinance adopted by the convention of delegates assembled at Little Rock for the purpose of forming a constitution and system of government for said State, the propositions set forth in "An act supplementary to an act entitled `An act for the admission of the State of Arkansas into the Union, and to provide for the due execution of the laws of the United States within the same, and for other purposes,'" were freely accepted, ratified, and irrevocably confirmed, articles of compact and union between the State of Arkansas and the United States, and all other laws and every other law and ordinance, whereby the State of Arkansas became a member of the Federal Union, be, and the same are hereby, in all respects and for every purpose herewith consistent, repealed, abrogated, and fully set aside; and the union now subsisting between the State of Arkansas and the other States, under the name of the United States of America, is hereby forever dissolved.

And we do further hereby declare and ordain, That the State of Arkansas hereby resumes to herself all rights and powers heretofore delegated to the Government of the United States of America; that her citizens are absolved from all allegiance to said Government of the United States, and that she is in full possession and exercise of all the rights and sovereignty which appertain to a free and independent State.

We do further ordain and declare, That all rights acquired and vested under the Constitution of the United States of America, or of any act or acts of Congress, or treaty, or under any law of this State, and not incompatible with this ordinance, shall remain in full force and effect, in nowise altered or impaired, and have the same effect as if this ordinance had not been passed.

Adopted and passed in open convention on the 6th day of May, A.D. 1861.

Source: Official Records, Ser. IV, vol. 1, pp. 287-88.


Missouri

An act declaring the political ties heretofore existing between the State of Missouri and the United States of America dissolved.

Whereas the Government of the United States, in the possession and under the control of a sectional party, has wantonly violated the compact originally made between said Government and the State of Missouri, by invading with hostile armies the soil of the State, attacking and making prisoners the militia while legally assembled under the State laws, forcibly occupying the State capitol, and attempting through the instrumentality of domestic traitors to usurp the State government, seizing and destroying private property, and murdering with fiendish malignity peaceable citizens, men, women, and children, together with other acts of atrocity, indicating a deep-settled hostility toward the people of Missouri and their institutions; and

Whereas the present Administration of the Government of the United States has utterly ignored the Constitution, subverted the Government as constructed and intended by its makers, and established a despotic and arbitrary power instead thereof: Now, therefore,

Be it enacted by the general assembly of the State of Missouri, That all political ties of every character new existing between the Government of the United States of America and the people and government of the State of Missouri are hereby dissolved, and the State of Missouri, resuming the sovereignty granted by compact to the said United States upon admission of said State into the Federal Union, does again take its place as a free and independent republic amongst the nations of the earth.

This act to take effect and be in force from and after its passage.

Approved, October 31, 1861.

Source: Official Records, Ser. IV, vol. 1, pp. 752-53.

[This act was passed by a rump legislature called into session in Neosho]

The South shall rise again, eh Corpy?

so do we get racism from you today, or what?

it's Halloween? Why not smear yourself in mayonnaise and go out as a cream pie!

You talk like society was homogenous. You focus on the bad things but forget that a man could set out into the wilderness and create his own world. Later, a man and a truck could start a business. Ray Kroc started with a single hamburger stand that he bought from someone else. Harlon Saunders had a reciept and a desire but not a million dollars. Dave Thomas, the same. Today it takes a lot of financial backing and support to navigate the paperwork needed to start a business. Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

And after all the hamburger and fried chicken startups we got Google, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and untold application winners whose beginnings were more than humble. Somehow, someway, they were able to navigate all the contentious paperwork on the bumpy road to billionairehood. As I gaze out the windows of my automobile I see countless "new" and "small" businesses sprouting up from the wilderness......that only a few short years ago harbored deer and other wildlife.....refusing to allow their entrepreneurial spirit to be diminished by the crushing bureaucracy laboring to prevent their birth. Starting a business in Texas requires a Texas Tax ID......now, if you want to dump pollutants into the waterways, pump noxious and harmful particles into the air I breathe, build a pipeline across my property, sell counterfeit merchandise, or toxic products.......well, you might have a problem. If you want to use child labor, subject your employees to unsafe working conditions, defraud your customers, withhold wages, prepare food in unsanitary conditions......you might have a point.

The top tax rate in 1948 when McDonald's began was over 80% but it didn't deter them..........