When people are allowed to say idiotic things unchallenged

Brought to you by Science Originally Posted by WTF

Tis true!...as well as so many other pharmaceuticals that send me to my happy place....

Tis true!...as well as so many other pharmaceuticals that send me to my happy place.... Originally Posted by Valerie

Better living through chemistry!!!

. I do not feel that Lauren's ideas on here are going to affect any lives.Now if she decides to apply for a position at Genentech I might get a little worried, but posting her thoughts on a message board seems pretty harmless in my opinion, and so are disagreeing with them for that matter.
Originally Posted by Becky

.

I started this thread not to go after Lauren but to have a discussion on just WTF science is. If Lauren, who is a pretty bright person could have so much trouble grasping just WTF science is , think how much trouble people with less brain power are having?

This thread has made me even more aware of the total lack of understanding as to just what science is.

.It was the personal stabs that bothered me.

Originally Posted by Becky

nina was personally offended by Lauren's blanket personal jab at science.

I am not sure if that is the personal jab of which you speak but I kinda doubt it. Do you see how nina can only scratch her head at how you pick and choose on what is offensive?

She responded in kind.

It appears Lauren pm'd her that her views on science were not where her jab was directed. I can only assume they were directed at me, even though nina and my view on science were almot exactly the same.

Anyway this is not what the thread was about....it was about people having a hard time understanding exactly just what science is or isn't.

I hope any further discussion of a personal nature can be done by pm's.

So this thread is warranted because you believe that science isn't dogmatic? ... Originally Posted by Tiffani Jameson

It does not matter what I believe.

If you understand just what science is, you know that it is not dogmatic. Period.
Just as if you understand the principials of math you know the answer to 2+2.
So yes, I believe the thread is warranted. That does not make it so.

Better living through chemistry!!! Originally Posted by SR Only

http://www.amazon.com/Pihkal-Chemica.../dp/0963009605

You completely missed the point of my post WTF. Then again, I guess I'm the stupid fuck, for trying to explain Relativity on a SHMB...

You completely missed the point of my post WTF. Then again, I guess I'm the stupid fuck, for trying to explain Relativity on a SHMB... Originally Posted by Wakeuр

Well if you look at it like that, that makes two of us

It depends. I let things slide all the time for several reasons. The main one is it may not be a big deal, or more specifically, it may not be a big deal to me. If someone wants to believe in Santa Clause, what do I care? One of the biggest “contests” people have is proving they are more political correct than anyone else. IMHO, PC is a bane on our society so I try to stay out of that mental masturbation. Would I challenge the wisdom of not getting vaccines for deadly or deforming virtues? Yes, I would. In fact, I think the actual behavior to be challenged is Ophra or anyone else to host such dangerous nonsense. Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

A-to-da-men! Speaking of mental masturbation...may I hear more of that "special" Christmas gift???

The stuff I chose to give this past holiday season certainly pales in comparison. Oh well...live & learn!

Two things come to mind. One, sometimes it’s in the delivery. And two, just because it’s the truth, definitely doesn’t mean people want to hear it. Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

I consider the choice between truth & civility a false choice...it's not an either/or proposition. I do think it's possible to disagree without being disagreeable. I do think it's possible to tell someone they are flat-out wrong the same way. If they're not in a place to hear what you're saying, that's their problem...or yours if...God forbid...they are right. I fail to see how simply saying something more stridently or more rudely is going to change that.

I'm not a fan of arguing by analogy but...I do think it's rather like trying to speak to someone who simply doesn't speak your language. Is repeating the sentence more slowly...more loudly...more demeaningly...really going to improve the comprehension?

Ain’t that just the truth. I used to have a friend that would get mad at me when I would disagree with her or state a truism about the world as it stands that didn’t jive with her delicate sensibilities. It’s not my fault that’s the just way it is.
Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

I have a brother that is the same way. The older he gets...the MORE dogmatic he becomes. If you disagree with him, not only are you wrong...you're morally inferior. To steal from Joe Jackson, he's...

"Not talking about right & left. Talkin' about right & wrong..."

The dichotomy that blows my mind is...other than that...he's the nicest guy I've ever met. Would do anything for anyone...give you the shirt off his back. Just a nice, nice...but incredibly weird dude... He simply can't help exercising his license to tell everyone where it's at & telling those he "loves" how they ought to be living there life.

Consequently, no one else in the family will argue with him any more...especially when it comes to any of his "hot button" issues. He BELIEVES no one argues because he's right & we all agree with him. The rest of us KNOW it's simply a waste of time & we all value peace in the family above listening to...or being the subject of...one of his tirades.

I'm just going to say this: the truth cannot be argued. If there are challenging theories on a truth, it's only a publicly accepted truth, which still doesn't make it the absolute truth. Since engaging in this forum, I have not seen any group of people attack any one as I've seen in the last week or so. YES, I notice it too. You take the total of what a person says and blow it completely out of proportion. Just to be ugly. Any entity in this WORLD has the room to become exploitative. Even science. The police. Religious leaders. Government. Not even as a whole, just a few within it. That's all it takes. We're not all going to renounce our religious beliefs because a few of you are adamant that religion is for idiots. I will RESPECTFULLY let you have your opinion. You can call our differences two different sets of publicly accepted truths...

I love to debate. The point of debate is to allow for different frames of reference, eliminating one-track minded thinking. You ever look at how debates are won? It's not about the truth, it's about who presents their argument the best. And these talks should not be in search of a truth, but to see differing opinions of various topics. And there should be no winners. I'm pretty sure that there were people who read the threads on religion, but to keep from telling some of you to kiss theirs and God's ass, they didn't respond. This is not the place to look for conversions.

What happened to live and let live? Damn... Originally Posted by Tiffani Jameson

I now have the soundtrack from JC Superstar now playing on the radio station in my head. From the trial....

Jesus
Yes you can see I am
I look for truth
And find that I get damned

Pilate
What is truth?
Is truth unchanging law?
We both have truths
Are mine the same as yours?

It was the personal stabs that bothered me....but I know from experience that when you sugar coat it you end up with a much greater influence with them than when you just lose your temper, and yell. Originally Posted by Becky

Agreed

There is no such thing as either of these. Both are subject to interpretation...

I will always be me, and will only regard my own version of the truth and my own version of politeness, if those versions don't match up with yours, too damn bad... Originally Posted by Wakeuр

Well, well, well....look what the cat dragged in! You "slumming"; or, is this part of the audition?

This thread is about science NOT being dogmatic. Period. If you are talking to others fine, forget what I am saying but I am not trying to change anyone's mind about their religion or that one is better than the other.

All I am saying is that science is not dogmatic. I will be happy to discuss this with anyone that has a hard time understanding that fact.

I hope that puts any misunderstanding to rest. Originally Posted by WTF

Just two quick points, WT, I'm not going down your rabbit hole on this one...

1. Capital "S" science is NOT dogmatic. Couldn't agree with you more in that regard. Scientists...are people...just like the rest of us. Some of us are dogmatic...some of us are not. Some of us are normally not dogmatic...but have our "hot button" issues about which we are more susceptible.

That's the bigger concern to me. Rather than expend my bullets defending capital-S "science"...I'd spend them arguing about the fact that scientific research seems more susceptible to...."corruption"...for lack of a better word...than ever before. To use your example, Jenny McCarthy's ridiculous assertions about vaccinations gained traction, in part, because someone was willing to - for a price - produce an study with ginned-up results that supported the assertion. Put those results in front of those that desperately wish to believe what she's saying...bingo! You get,

"I'm not letting some egghead scientist make MY kid autistic..."

The bigger concern to me, and maybe it's just me, is that there are folk that aren't just anti-science...they're anti-intellectual. Knowledge & "book learnin'" be over-rated. But, that's not new... What is new, & more troubling to me, is that the decline in education, overall, makes many more susceptible to the disease...

I started this thread not to go after Lauren but to have a discussion on just WTF science is. Originally Posted by WTF

2. So, you say. I, for one, choose to believe that. If that makes me naive, so be it. But, I would posit for your consideration...and your private reflection...that many here who have interacted with you for quite some period of time...find that hard to believe.

My experience, and it's just that - mine, is that if you can make a point AND take a jab at the view of one you disagree with at the same time...well, so much the better! Sometimes it's funny...sometimes it's annoying. Again, both are in the perception of the beholder. Their perception IS their reality...until enacted upon in some way.

nina was personally offended by Lauren's blanket personal jab at science.

I am not sure if that is the personal jab of which you speak but I kinda doubt it. Do you see how nina can only scratch her head at how you pick and choose on what is offensive?

She responded in kind.

It appears Lauren pm'd her that her views on science were not where her jab was directed. I can only assume they were directed at me, even though nina and my view on science were almot exactly the same.

Anyway this is not what the thread was about....it was about people having a hard time understanding exactly just what science is or isn't.

I hope any further discussion of a personal nature can be done by pm's. Originally Posted by WTF

2 (cont). Unless Nina is a reincarnation of someone know here before...of course she would find ALL of this puzzling...if not downright disturbing! She's a newcomer to battles some of us have been fighting...literally, for years.

If I didn't say so before...shame on me! Where be my manners? Welcome to the madness, Nina!

that is true, that is my opinion as well. i still don`t know why i should be a worse person for bashing one person for an opinion than one person is for bashing a whole area of thought plus the people within, and this without stating facts or bringing valid examples ? at least i have the decency to reflect on myself and why i get a certain reaction while some people are so up on their high horse that they think they stand above everything. And apologies and acknowledging facts is just for jerks like me, who don`t even bother with grammar right? Well at least i get the facts right :-) Originally Posted by ninasastri

Ok now I am totally lost lol. I have no idea what you have to apologize for, nor what the hell is going on around here. I have no issues with you at all...you speak your mind and I respect that.

Truth? What is "the" truth? If you believe something in your mind and state that belief you think you are saying the "truth". But if someone else does not believe as you do they think you are lying. Truth is supposed to based on facts, but facts can be manipulated to slant toward almost any direction. "Truth" may be in reality only someone's opinion. What is true depends on your own knowledge and life experiences and whether or not you watch CNN or FOX news. Both present the "news" but in almost opposite spins. Perhaps there is no such thing as truth. Truth can be many different things to different people. Once the world was flat and most believed that to be true. The Earth was the center of the universe and our solar system. No life exists in the Universe other than on Earth. Animals do not have soles and can not go to heaven. There is no God (or is there?) Truth is tied to ones own beliefs, to ones culture and to your lifes time line in the time line of universal/earths life history. Beliefs and therefore "truth" changes all the time. If what is "true" changes from moment to moment, decade to decade, centry to centry, how can there really be such a thing called truth? Truth is very subjective. Its not like math where 2 + 2 is 4. (or does it really = 4?) Depends on the base. The truth is there is no truth. The truth is simply what we as individuals believe from moment to moment. But lying is entirely different. When we state "facts" that even in our own mind we know are incorrect we have betrayed our own personal truth.

.

nina was personally offended by Lauren's blanket personal jab at science.

I am not sure if that is the personal jab of which you speak but I kinda doubt it. Do you see how nina can only scratch her head at how you pick and choose on what is offensive?
Originally Posted by WTF

Aren't we all offended by blanket comments made by others that we know, or feel to be untrue. I am sure at times it can become very frustrating when it is a subject you feel passionate about, but sorry I do not consider that to be the same thing as a personal attack. Of course I do pick, and choose on what I consider to be offensive. We all do that. I like to believe that is called having an opinion. I am sorry you are not very fond of mine

PS: talking about AUSCHWITZ? I suggest your post has a little shortcomings on the influence of catholicism and new age on gassing the Jews? The holocaust is the most tragic example of the perfect interlude and intertwined activity of the most desastrous examples of religious ignorant fundamentalism with scientific cruelty (non ethicality).

PPS: i completely agree that atheism is a religious belief as well..;-.) Originally Posted by ninasastri

Jews were not gassed in the name of Catholicism or to advance Catholicism. The Nazis engineered the Holocaust. Nazis justified their actions with modern sciences, e.g., phrenology and eugenics, not religion. Simply shooting those the Nazis deemed “untermensch” was insufficient. The Nazis enlisted science and technology. IBM provided the means to document the “untermensch,” and their status, while IG Farben manufactured the gas - Zyklon B - to murder them. These, and other combinations of science and technology, enabled Nazis to murder on an industrial scale that was quite unimaginable with rifles and machineguns. This is what I meant when I suggest Auschwitz should stand as a historical reminder of what man’s science can accomplish. Did the Vatican take a noble position? No, but that’s another story.

Aren't we all offended by blanket comments made by others that we know, or feel to be untrue. I am sure at times it can become very frustrating when it is a subject you feel passionate about, but sorry I do not consider that to be the same thing as a personal attack. Originally Posted by Becky

I also went back and reread the original thread. I saw nothing personal. If you say 2+2=5 and I say, ''Becky that is an ignorant statement, I'm not sure you are understanding math. Here is a great article explaining the concept.'' And others join you in saying that 2+2=5 and I start a thread on how silly that concept is, That to me is not personal. I have only taken your concept of reality and opened it up to debate. The concept, not your intelligence. If you or others then take that as personal, whose fault is that?

I have gained knowledge. I never knew so damn many people would defend/believe such a silly/ignorant statement. I would hope we then could have a debate on it's merits. Not on some personality dispute.

I have said repeatedly that bright people can say ignorant things, that is a far cry from an personal attack. IMHO Are you offended that I think that anyone who believes 2+2=5 ignorant on that particular subject matter?

. Of course I do pick, and choose on what I consider to be offensive. We all do that. I like to believe that is called having an opinion. Originally Posted by Becky

Yes we all do and yes an opinion it is. I respect yours and respectfully disagree in this particular case.

I still luv ya though!

. . I am sorry you are not very fond of mine
Originally Posted by Becky

I'm just not fond of this one, as you are not fond of mine in this regard. What fun would it be if we agreed all the time.

This is what I meant when I suggest Auschwitz should stand as a historical reminder of what man’s science can accomplish. Did the Vatican take a noble position? No, but that’s another story. Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Do not forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki if you want a historical reminder of what science can do.

Do not forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki if you want a historical reminder of what science can do. Originally Posted by WTF

Already included in a previous post.