Unemployment Under Biden

SpeedRacerXXX's Avatar
This is not going to happen overnight. In the interim why cut the head off the American oil and gas industry?

Biden has chosen not to go after production on private lands in the U.S., yet. However he has already shut down development of federal lands and offshore. And that may be a first step. Originally Posted by Tiny
As discussed earlier, there is no evidence that oil and gas
production in this country will slow down in the near future after we recover from the pandemic. If you can find anything contrary to that statement, please cite it.

I see this as a very long and very slow process to move to fossil fuel independence. We will never be 100% independenet of fossil fuels anytime this century.
WTF's Avatar
  • WTF
  • 02-03-2021, 01:52 PM
As discussed earlier, there is no evidence that oil and gas
production in this country will slow down in the near future after we recover from the pandemic. If you can find anything contrary to that statement, please cite it. Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX
People need to understand that production of oil in this country is a product of price/demand.

Biden has little to no control over either.

The Saudi's however do.
  • Tiny
  • 02-03-2021, 02:47 PM
As discussed earlier, there is no evidence that oil and gas
production in this country will slow down in the near future after we recover from the pandemic. If you can find anything contrary to that statement, please cite it.

I see this as a very long and very slow process to move to fossil fuel independence. We will never be 100% independenet of fossil fuels anytime this century. Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX
It's just common sense. If the price of oil and gas go up, then increased production from private lands may more than make up for declines on Federal leases, boosting production. Now given that the average price of oil in 2020 was $39.34/barrel because of the Covid recession, and given that the price is now $56/barrel, and given the short lead times on shale wells, you might think there's no way U.S. production shouldn't go up. But the EIA, an agency of the U.S. government that produces short term forecasts, assumes production will go down again in 2021, before increasing a little in 2022. Still in 2022 they expect we'll be at 11.5 million barrels per day, below the 12.3 million barrel per day level of 2019, despite a huge anticipated increase in price in percentage terms from 2020.

In any event, all else being equal including the oil price, U.S. oil production will go down if federal leases, accounting for 25% of USA oil production, are shut off to development. Now the oil companies have built up a big inventory of drilling permits which are good for two years, so that will help, but only for a while. And Biden so far has just suspended new leases and new drilling permits for 60 days. However, if he follows through on his campaign promise, that ban will become permanent. And a final caveat, the oil and gas companies that have sunk hundreds of billions into offshore platforms, pipelines, processing facilities, field developments, etc. related to Federal leases, will be suing the Federal government to overturn Biden's executive order. They spent tens or hundreds of billions on leases bonuses paid to the federal government, in return for the right to explore and develop federal leases, and now the government has potentially reduced the value of those leases to a fraction of what it was before January 6. Obviously if the lawsuits are successful that could make a big difference.

And don't even get me started on fracking. Harris, Warren and Sanders all favored an immediate ban on fracking. Given that fracked wells account for 50% to 60% of U.S. oil and gas production, and given that the decline rates of the production from fracked wells are very high (a typical new well might go from 1000 barrels per day to 400 barrels per day after 12 months), there's absolutely no way U.S. production would not go down precipitously if there were a fracking ban.
SpeedRacerXXX's Avatar
It's just common sense. If the price of oil and gas go up, then increased production from private lands may more than make up for declines on Federal leases, boosting production. Now given that the average price of oil in 2020 was $39.34/barrel because of the Covid recession, and given that the price is now $56/barrel, and given the short lead times on shale wells, you might think there's no way U.S. production shouldn't go up. But the EIA, an agency of the U.S. government that produces short term forecasts, assumes production will go down again in 2021, before increasing a little in 2022. Still in 2022 they expect we'll be at 11.5 million barrels per day, below the 12.3 million barrel per day level of 2019, despite a huge anticipated increase in price in percentage terms from 2020.

In any event, all else being equal including the oil price, U.S. oil production will go down if federal leases, accounting for 25% of USA oil production, are shut off to development. Now the oil companies have built up a big inventory of drilling permits which are good for two years, so that will help, but only for a while. And Biden so far has just suspended new leases and new drilling permits for 60 days. However, if he follows through on his campaign promise, that ban will become permanent. And a final caveat, the oil and gas companies that have sunk hundreds of billions into offshore platforms, pipelines, processing facilities, field developments, etc. related to Federal leases, will be suing the Federal government to overturn Biden's executive order. They spent tens or hundreds of billions on leases bonuses paid to the federal government, in return for the right to explore and develop federal leases, and now the government has potentially reduced the value of those leases to a fraction of what it was before January 6. Obviously if the lawsuits are successful that could make a big difference.

And don't even get me started on fracking. Harris, Warren and Sanders all favored an immediate ban on fracking. Given that fracked wells account for 50% to 60% of U.S. oil and gas production, and given that the decline rates of the production from fracked wells are very high (a typical new well might go from 1000 barrels per day to 400 barrels per day after 12 months), there's absolutely no way U.S. production would not go down precipitously if there were a fracking ban. Originally Posted by Tiny
Again I ask you to present 3rd party data that states that oil and gas production in this country is forecast to decrease in the next decade or so. We can play "what-if" scenarios forever. If fracking is banned, yes, oil production in this country will fall. The actions taken thus far by Biden will not have a major impact on oil production in this country.
WTF's Avatar
  • WTF
  • 02-04-2021, 08:07 AM
First time I've seen Tiny play the Chicken Little card.

Tiny market forces will dictate oil production in this country.

Will environmental concerns play a part? Of course but not to the extent you are claiming.
  • Tiny
  • 02-04-2021, 08:26 AM
Again I ask you to present 3rd party data that states that oil and gas production in this country is forecast to decrease in the next decade or so. We can play "what-if" scenarios forever. If fracking is banned, yes, oil production in this country will fall. The actions taken thus far by Biden will not have a major impact on oil production in this country. Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX
What can i say that i haven't already. The 10+ year forecasts out there were prepared before Biden's executive order. The one you posted was prepared before the price of oil fell out of bed last year. And you can't have confidence in any long term forecast given uncertainties in regulation and the price of oil. You can say shutting off drilling on leases and lands accounting for 25% of USA oil supply will hurt
WTF's Avatar
  • WTF
  • 02-04-2021, 09:08 AM
Tiny if I were you, I'd get out of the oil forecasting business!



.
  • Tiny
  • 02-04-2021, 09:15 AM
First time I've seen Tiny play the Chicken Little card.

Tiny market forces will dictate oil production in this country.

Will environmental concerns play a part? Of course but not to the extent you are claiming. Originally Posted by WTF
I hope you’re right. EPD, which has lots of assets in southeastern New Mexico dependent on production from federal lands hopes you’re right too. I have to give you credit for putting your money where your mouth is
Here were the unemployment numbers at the end of 2019, before the onset of Covid:

Overall: 3.6%
Black Americans: 5.5%
Hispanic Americans: 4.3%

These were the lowest numbers in 50 years, since 1969!

I don't see Biden coming anywhere close to these numbers during the next four years, or the next eight years, if he's able to implement his platform. Why?

1. He has proposed a $15/hour minimum wage. He wants to apply this to everyone, including restaurant and bar workers who receive tips, many of whom do quite well, much better than $15/hour. Estimates are this will cost 700,000 jobs, just among those who work for tips. I suspect it will cost millions of jobs in total. Don't get me wrong, I've got no problem with a minimum wage. But it should be set at the local or state level. What works in New York City doesn't work in McAllen, Texas. And for that matter it should vary with economic conditions. My community could have easily supported a $15 minimum wage a year ago. Right now, given what's happened as a result of Covid, $15 would put a lot of employees out of work and a lot of business owners out of business.


2. He says he will shut down oil and gas drilling on federal leases, and in the longer term will put policies into effect to achieve "0" net carbon emissions. This would effectively shutter the oil and gas industry in the USA in the long term. Look for hundreds of thousands of lost jobs in the short term, and if future administrations and Congresses continue these policies, millions of jobs lost.

3. Biden will use the bully pulpit and probably get more people to use masks and social distance, which I believe will actually help preserve jobs. However, he'll also be promoting lockdowns more than Trump. I expect the net effect will be lost jobs.

4. Biden wants to increase the federal corporate tax rate to 27% or 28%. While a step backward, this by itself isn't extremely onerous. However, add in an average 5% tax at the state level, and the U.S. again will have one of the higher corporate income tax rates in the world. This will stifle employment as the government takes more money out of the private sector and shifts it to government to be used for who knows what. Higher tax rates on unincorporated businesses will also hurt.

5. According to Larry Summers, economic advisor to Democratic Presidents, when you add Biden's stimulus proposals to what we've already spent, we're covering 3X the output gap, being the GDP we lost from Covid. A lot of this money will end up in programs that will incentivize some people to avoid work. Not most people, but some.

6. Biden will ramp up regulation on business. This will cost jobs.

When unemployment fails to come down like it should, who will Democrats blame? You can look for hints from what happened during the Obama administration, and who they assigned the blame to then. Originally Posted by Tiny
I think you have put together a solid rationale for your position, my thoughts in addition or in compliment

1. how a minimum wage increase will play out remains to be seen. a dramatic increase like that proposed, one in excess of a 100% increase, has a shock value to the economy. employees of small business and those of businesses that can be further automated in some way are likely to face uncertainty in their employment. few employees are at the exact minimum wage of $7.25. those that are, or are near the minimum, are likely to lose their jobs. why? because they aren't worth $15.

there is word for the suppression of wages below the "worth" or contribution a worker makes. its called monopsony. its where a business has the power to make an "excess" profit on some workers. in other words the worth of a minimum wage worker may be more than $7.25. in those cases an incremental rise in the minimum wage might not greatly affect employment. but a shock increase to $15 seemingly would. mom and pop will sweep their own floors for that.

and what is the effect of more continued and increased illegal immigration on employment coupled with a shock increase in minimum wage?

and what of the human cost? the training of kids to the work ethic and to see them rise. they might never get a chance at this rate


2. oil and gas, you have it pegged. and energy, and its attendant cost, has its reach in all areas of life, so its not just the direct employment, for, as costs rise, employment in many areas are affected. certainly the cost of energy will increase, and might increase dramatically

like a shock increase in the minimum wage, shock increases in energy costs take time to absorb and in the interim, jobs are lost

you may recall the oil embargo under carter and the fuel shortages where gasoline was rationed and there were lines for blocks for the few stations that were open- that was a job killer but not so bad for the domestic oil industry

and of course selective blackouts, that may be needed as a transition takes place, like what happens in California, effect businesses and some may well shutter and there goes employment.


ive also read that the energy required to make energy efficient equipment negates a lot of the carbon savings ..don't know myself

you know the blackout in north korea at night , where satellites reveal the stark differences between the two koreas? is that our future under these scoundrels?

4. the tax rate increase- its also the capital of multinationals that wont be retuned to the united states

5. the misallocation of resources occur when government picks winners and losers, and as the dimocrats have shown in many ways, the money gets concentrated in the wrong pockets and the stated intention is not the actual intention and result

6. regulation drives out, or keeps out, the start up and small business and is great for bidens corporate cronies, which in turn limits employment

all in all, biden and those behind him are not employment friendly

I'm reasonably confident that their goal is universal income and control not employment

the only governor on them is how to not lose elections while they work toward their ultimate goal, that is until they can fully eliminate honest elections
WTF's Avatar
  • WTF
  • 02-04-2021, 12:40 PM
Chicken Little is strong in this thread...
  • Tiny
  • 02-04-2021, 01:14 PM
2. oil and gas, you have it pegged. and energy, and its attendant cost, has its reach in all areas of life, so its not just the direct employment, for, as costs rise, employment in many areas are affected. certainly the cost of energy will increase, and might increase dramatically

like a shock increase in the minimum wage, shock increases in energy costs take time to absorb and in the interim, jobs are lost

you may recall the oil embargo under carter and the fuel shortages where gasoline was rationed and there were lines for blocks for the few stations that were open- that was a job killer but not so bad for the domestic oil industry

and of course selective blackouts, that may be needed as a transition takes place, like what happens in California, effect businesses and some may well shutter and there goes employment. Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought
Excellent points. If the more progressive Democrats take control of government and immediately ban fracking, as they say they will, this is what's in store when the price of natural gas shoots to the moon. The Californication of America. Oil is a global market, so we'll just have to import from the Saudis and others what we used to produce here in the USA. With the supply from the shale producers gone, world oil prices, all things being equal, will go up.

5. the misallocation of resources occur when government picks winners and losers, and as the dimocrats have shown in many ways, the money gets concentrated in the wrong pockets and the stated intention is not the actual intention and result Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought
Yes, the Democratic politicians are geared towards quotas and mandates, instead of free markets. The major oil companies, which think they see the writing on the wall, would much rather see something like a reasonable tax on carbon. I might be able to go for that, but only if it would be offset by a reduction in the income tax.
  • oeb11
  • 02-04-2021, 02:40 PM
you need to compare the start of the Obama administration and of the administration numbers. Trump just kept a downward trend going, the percent change under Obama is greater than Trumos. in fact, that's the case under every Dem administration vs Reopub administration since Nixon. Originally Posted by 1blackman1



Already making excuses to blame Trump.
SpeedRacerXXX's Avatar
What can i say that i haven't already. The 10+ year forecasts out there were prepared before Biden's executive order. The one you posted was prepared before the price of oil fell out of bed last year. And you can't have confidence in any long term forecast given uncertainties in regulation and the price of oil. You can say shutting off drilling on leases and lands accounting for 25% of USA oil supply will hurt Originally Posted by Tiny
You are correct on relying too heavily on forecasts, no matter when they were made. Everyone knew the day after the election what Biden would do regarding the pipeline and halting new drilling permits on U.S.land. Drilling on federal land accounts for 9% of U.S. onshore oil production. So nothing Biden has done has impacted current oil production in this country.

Certainly if Biden does something to shut off 25% of the U.S. oil supply that would have a serious impact on the industry but I have not read anything that would imply that he is planning to do that.
WTF's Avatar
  • WTF
  • 02-05-2021, 08:05 AM
I hope you’re right. EPD, which has lots of assets in southeastern New Mexico dependent on production from federal lands hopes you’re right too. I have to give you credit for putting your money where your mouth is Originally Posted by Tiny
I'm so worried , I'm buying more. It pays a great dividend at it's current price and I expect it stock price to increase in the next two years.

Plus is Biden shuts down pipelines...that enhances EPD assets!
  • oeb11
  • 02-05-2021, 08:12 AM
You are correct on relying too heavily on forecasts, no matter when they were made. Everyone knew the day after the election what Biden would do regarding the pipeline and halting new drilling permits on U.S.land. Drilling on federal land accounts for 9% of U.S. onshore oil production. So nothing Biden has done has impacted current oil production in this country.

Certainly if Biden does something to shut off 25% of the U.S. oil supply that would have a serious impact on the industry but I have not read anything that would imply that he is planning to do that. Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

The leaders of the marxist DPST/ccp party are not about to release their plans to destroy America with such info, SR.

They much rather deflect the attention of the masses with 'bread and circuses' , while they destroy transportation and food service to the people.
They much rather have people focus on the 'poor AOC and her victimhood traumas "

- as much more important than 'Serving the People of teh Nation.

Yes - AOC is a 'circus act" - of denial and deflection to the masses deluded by the marxist DPST/ccp party!