No Indictment In New York

My point is for pages of posts ... if Garner had done what was lawful ....

He would be alive and we wouldn't have wasted all this time, ... Originally Posted by LexusLover

I dont agree with that
lawful or not, had he just been nice to cops,they wouldnt have had to use force to get him to comply.
a big black man doing illlegal activity being nice?
I dont see it happening

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/eri.../04/id/611058/
There is no doubt that Garner was resisting an arrest for illegally selling untaxed cigarettes. Former New York City Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik put it succinctly: "You cannot resist arrest. If Eric Garner did not resist arrest, the outcome of this case would have been very different," he told Newsmax. "He wouldn't be dead today.

"Regardless of what the arrest was for, the officers don't have the ability to say, 'Well, this is a minor arrest, so we're just going to ignore you.'"

2. The video of the July 17 incident clearly shows Garner, an African-American, swatting away the arms of a white officer seeking to take him into custody, telling him: "Don't touch me!"

3. Garner, 43, had history of more than 30 arrests dating back to 1980, on charges including assault and grand larceny.

4. At the time of his death, Garner was out on bail after being charged with illegally selling cigarettes, driving without a license, marijuana possession and false impersonation.

5. The chokehold that Patrolman Daniel Pantaleo put on Garner was reported to have contributed to his death. But Garner, who was 6-foot-3 and weighed 350 pounds, suffered from a number of health problems, including heart disease, severe asthma, diabetes, obesity, and sleep apnea. Pantaleo's attorney and police union officials argued that Garner's poor health was the main cause of his death.


6. Garner did not die at the scene of the confrontation. He suffered cardiac arrest in the ambulance taking him to the hospital and was pronounced dead about an hour later.

7. Much has been made of the fact that the use of chokeholds by police is prohibited in New York City. But officers reportedly still use them. Between 2009 and mid-2014, the Civilian Complaint Review Board received 1,128 chokehold allegations.

Patrick Lynch, president of the New York City Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, said: "It was clear that the officer's intention was to do nothing more than take Mr. Garner into custody as instructed, and that he used the takedown technique that he learned in the academy when Mr. Garner refused."

8. The grand jury began hearing the case on Sept. 29 and did not reach a decision until Wednesday, so there is much testimony that was presented that has not been made public.

9. The 23-member grand jury included nine non-white jurors.

10. In order to find Officer Pantaleo criminally negligent, the grand jury would have had to determine that he knew there was a "substantial risk" that Garner would have died due to the takedown.

11. Less than a month after Garner's death, Ramsey Orta, who shot the much-viewed videotape of the encounter, was indicted on weapons charges. Police alleged that Orta had slipped a .25-caliber handgun into a teenage accomplice's waistband outside a New York hotel.

In my opinion a guy selling someone a loose cigarette out of a pack of 20 that has been bought legally is no more harmful to me than that same guy occupying 4 square feet of sidewalk. Originally Posted by boardman

thankfully, your opinion is irrelevant,
but you'd hate me, as my neigbor across the street used to park his car/truck in front of his house, which was directly across from my driveway
AND in front of a fire hydrant

His car there made if hard for me to pull out...so I'd call the cops who'd give him a ticket for inconveniencing me and parking in front of a hydrant.

he doesn't park there anymore.

was the harmful behavior on his part? not really, but it did break the law.

I dont agree with that .... Originally Posted by bigcockpussylicker

With this?

My point is for pages of posts ... if Garner had done what was lawful ....

He would be alive and we wouldn't have wasted all this time, ... Originally Posted by LexusLover

......he doesn't park there anymore.....[/IMG] Originally Posted by bigcockpussylicker

Just another one of those "stupid laws".....

..... forced on innocent citizens by "Big Government."

that's irrelevant though,
When the cops talk to you, you gotta treat them nice,
just like when I'm driving and you think you have the right of way to walk in front of my car....maybe you do have the right of way, but I run you over cause I don't see you.
Im fine, your dead/cant walk.
oh but you are right?.... oh, you werent right,, my light was green....
Guess you better yield to the car or the cops, because they have the power.

in all the publicized cases, garner/brown/rice....the guys who died didnt show respect for the police.....show some respect or shit happens and no one is going to punish the cops. Originally Posted by bigcockpussylicker

Again,
I'm not disagreeing with that point. Hell yes, respect the cops or expect to take a ride. In the majority of stops the cop has no idea what to expect. Did the guy just get fired for some bullshit? Maybe he just had a fight with his GF or wife. Maybe he's had one too many to drink. Or maybe he just robbed a liquor store. So yeah be polite, present yourself in a non threatening manner and maybe most importantly let the cop know, in a non-confrontational way that you understand and respect his responsibility as well as your own rights. In other words be professional.

thankfully, your opinion is irrelevant,
but you'd hate me, as my neigbor across the street used to park his car/truck in front of his house, which was directly across from my driveway
AND in front of a fire hydrant

His car there made if hard for me to pull out...so I'd call the cops who'd give him a ticket for inconveniencing me and parking in front of a hydrant.

he doesn't park there anymore.

was the harmful behavior on his part? not really, but it did break the law.
Originally Posted by bigcockpussylicker

I wouldn't consider parking in front of a fire hydrant harmless so I probably would have done the same.

As a side note, I've got a neighbor with a house full of grown kids who's vehicles are always encroaching just on the edge of my driveway making it hard for me to back out sometimes. Damn I wish I had a hydrant in my yard!

Public sidewalk is what you said. My mistake.

Simple presence on a public sidewalk does not allow the cops to have me explain my presence. Originally Posted by boardman

If there was a "reasonable suspicion" that he was involved in criminal activity, the police had the authority to stop and inquire as to what he was doing, identify him, and if they suspected he had contraband he was selling or he had anything on his person they considered a threat to their physical safety, then they had a right to pat him down and secure any contraband they find. Also, if he is a threat to them or is failing to allow them to pat him down then they have a right to secure him to compete the pat down for "officer safety"!

It is my understanding that a business owner had reported his activity and was familiar with Garner. It is my understanding the the LE knew him also. Those factors combined give them a "reasonable suspicion" of criminal activity .. particularly if the business owner has a "reliable" history with LE.

Terry vs. Ohio, ..... et seq.

.. more from the "frustrated law school drop out" ...

What you are doing is varying your scenarios from the facts as they are known/reported.

You can do that in an attempt to be right on the law, but when you do that and attempt to apply it to Garner (or Brown) you get an F. That is what is "simple."

And I think I didn't even post "public sidewalk" .... you were saying public vs. private property and that was my point ... Garner was in a "public place" .... and that changes your scenarios and the laws are applied to "public places"!

So, BigPussyCockLicker, it's ok for a cop to kill you for not being nice to them? Well if you say so . . .

If there was a "reasonable suspicion" that he was involved in criminal activity, the police had the authority to stop and inquire as to what he was doing, identify him, and if they suspected he had contraband he was selling or he had anything on his person they considered a threat to their physical safety, then they had a right to pat him down and secure any contraband they find. Also, if he is a threat to them or is failing to allow them to pat him down then they have a right to secure him to compete the pat down for "officer safety"! Not unreasonable.

It is my understanding that a business owner had reported his activity and was familiar with Garner. It is my understanding the the LE knew him also. Those factors combined give them a "reasonable suspicion" of criminal activity .. particularly if the business owner has a "reliable" history with LE. Sounds about right to me.

Terry vs. Ohio, ..... et seq.

.. more from the "frustrated law school drop out" ...Looks like I hit a nerve with that one. Boo yah! LOL

What you are doing is varying your scenarios from the facts as they are known/reported. No, I'm using hypotheticals to show that a stupid redundant law serves no purpose but to benefit the ones making the law... The Fucking Lawyers!
Apply it to Garner, Brown or Mickey Mouse, It's still a stupid law. The fact that you keep defending it is well...Stupid.

You can do that in an attempt to be right on the law, but when you do that and attempt to apply it to Garner (or Brown) you get an F. That is what is "simple."

And I think I didn't even post "public sidewalk" ....

4. And he was doing 1, 2, and 3, while on a PUBLIC SIDEWALK. Originally Posted by LexusLover

Originally Posted by LexusLover

Heh!

So, BigPussyCockLicker, it's ok for a cop to kill you for not being nice to them? Well if you say so . . . Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

The cop didn't kill Garner...For not being nice or anything else.
He was attempting to arrest Garner for violating a stupid law that was already covered by other existing laws which he could have chosen to enforce instead.
The arrest attempt resulted in Garner resisting and a subsequent approved take down maneuver by the cop which because of Garners weight and health issues contributed to him having a heart attack and dying.

So, BigPussyCockLicker, it's ok for a cop to kill you for not being nice to them? Well if you say so . . . Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

define being nice as doing what they tell you?
yes
I'd rather have people scared to not do what cops say then to fight cops/resist arrest

seems that I am correct by seeing the recent,.publized cases where people were not nice to cops, as I defined it.
you lose again, old women

How did I lose, BigPussyCockLicker? You're the one who set the death penalty for being impolite.

Public sidewalk is what you said. My mistake.

Simple presence on a public sidewalk does not allow the cops to have me explain my presence. This isn't the Third Reich. Garners presence on the public sidewalk doesn't make him guilty of something and the police should not be allowed to assume he is doing something wrong simply by his presence. That's what it seemed you were implying.

NO Jane, once again! The facts state that the POPO were called because a neighboring shop keeper had complained of Garner's business activity and the fact that he was soliciting the sale of cigarettes, which competed with his business, without license. SO THEY HAD THE RIGHT!!!!!!!
The New York Daily News reported that then-Chief of Department Philip Banks — the city's highest-ranking unformed officer and an African-American — ordered his staff to investigate complaints of untaxed cigarettes sold in the Tompkinsville neighborhood on Staten Island.


Now if he is a known felon then, yes, some of his rights are relinquished and he can be questioned without some probable cause. But they had probable cause.

The answer is YES, THEY DO. "Police may stop and briefly detain you only if there is reasonable suspicion that you committed, are committing or are about to commit a crime." Source ACLU ans NYCLU. Someone complained, they saw him selling cigarettes, and so yes he is now under suspicion of commuting a crime. You get this, finally?

Here is another reason for an arrest vs a summons:
On Aug. 2013, Garner was arrested, not given a summons, charged with aggravated unlicensed vehicle operation, false impersonation, possession or sale of untaxed cigarettes and marijuana possession.

On March 28, 2014, Garner was charged with a misdemeanor count of violating the cigarette and tobacco products tax and posted $1K bail. He had 24 packs of untaxed smokes in his possession.

May 7, 2014,Cops arrested him, possessing six packs of untaxed cigarettes, another $1K bond.

24 packs of cigarettes cost $130.(27ea) in VA, NYC $324(.67), "loosie".worth $480 ($1ea.) .73 profit. It is said that sales of 60 to 100 an hour is not unreasonable. So selling 24($350)-40($584) packs a day could NET between $100-$150K profit a year tax free. Some of the numbers are staggering as wholesale cigarettes from low taxed states are trucked in by the simi load.
I bet Tony Soprano would be in on this action, Wait, actually in in season 4 he put Paulie in charge of the of bootlegging cigarettes


I know it's a stretch for your sensibilities but let's say the loosie law is not in play and the cops see him selling loose cigarettes. Do they have the authority to ask to see a tax stamp or receipt to make sure he paid the taxes?

YES THEY DO First to be able to sell any product you must have a NY state tax ID and to sell cigarettes you must pay a $300 fee. You must adhere to the NY state cigarette use tax laws. make all purchases from registered dealers, and have a NYC sales tax and business license.

Enforcement Provisions Regarding the Sale, Shipment, and Possession of Cigarettes and Tobacco Products in New York State

The Public Health Law provides that it is unlawful for any person engaged in the business of selling cigarettes in New York State or any other state to ship, or cause to be shipped, any cigarettes to a person in New York, unless that person is:
• a licensed or registered cigarette agent, wholesale dealer, or retail dealer;
The first violation of the above provisions is punishable as a class A misdemeanor, and a second or subsequent violation is punishable as a class E felony. In addition to the criminal penalty, the New York State Commissioner of Health may impose a civil fine, not to exceed $5,000, for each violation.

NY tax form MT 201
The tobacco products use tax must be paid by any person who uses
(that is, possesses, imports, etc.) tobacco products in the state, not
including possession for sale, on which the New York State tobacco
products tax has not been paid and where the use of the tobacco
products is not exempt from the Article 20 tax (see Exemptions from
the tobacco products use tax below).
Note: Form CG-15, Cigarette Use Tax Return, must be completed
if you use cigarettes on which the New York State cigarette tax has
not been paid and where the use of the cigarettes in this state is not
exempt from the Article 20 tax. If the cigarette packs are unstamped
or are stamped with another taxing jurisdiction’s stamps, then the
cigarettes are considered unstamped for New York State tax purposes
and the state cigarette use tax is due. Additionally, there is a city
excise tax on cigarettes used in New York City.

YES THE NYC COPS ARE ALLOWED TO ENFORCE THE CITY USE TAX LAW,the city's business license/permit laws, and the signage laws pertaining to cigarettes.

Evading the state and city use tax are separate crimes.

NYC tax penalties.
Hiding or concealing cigarettes that are in unstamped or unlawfully stamped
packages, loose cigarettes not contained in a pack or tax stamps that are
unattached, altered or counterfeit.
What are the penalties for violations?
• Up to $2,000 for a first violation.
• Up to $5,000 for a second (different day) violation and each subsequent violation within three years.

I think that's reasonable. If he doesn't have that proof then write him a ticket and let him explain himself to the judge. Unless, he is out on bond and one of the conditions of the bond are, you guessed it; Not to engage in like behavior. Need I go further with this. If he continues to do it then it's reasonable to assume he either hasn't gone to see the judge or the judge didn't do enough the previous time to make him stop so maybe he needs to see the judge again. The cop can either continue to write tickets or take him for a ride to make sure he sees the judge. Unless he doesn't want to go? Again, those are reasonable options and they are based on observation of him doing something wrong. See above #complaint.
In my opinion a guy selling someone a loose cigarette out of a pack of 20 that has been bought legally. (But they were not as there is no money in that! Difference of .40ea) He was arrested multiple times with untaxed cigarettes Untaxed by both NY and NYC and the POPO knew that. He had been arrested in the same 4sf. of sidewalk before is no more harmful to me than that same guy occupying 4 square feet of sidewalk. Originally Posted by boardman

He was not an innocent man standing on a piece of sidewalk, he was a man who was damaging the legal businesses in the area, depriving the state and city governments out of licensing fees, and tax revenues, and quite possibly endangering the health and well being of minors.

Moral of the story: Do what you are told do to by someone who has been granted a level of authority that outranks yours. Garner failed to obey and sadly he died as a byproduct of being taken into custody. His rights were not violated, he broke the law, he knew he would not see the street, his wife, his children, his mistress, or their child for a long time and he didn't. Desperate people do desperate things.
Attachment 375096

WHAT TO DO IF YOU’RE STOPPED BY THE POLICE

· Stay calm and in control of your words, body language and emotions.
· Don’t get into an argument with the police.
· Never bad-mouth a police officer.
· Remember, anything you say or do can be used against you.
· Keep your hands where the police can see them.
· Don’t run.
· Don’t touch any police officer.
· Don’t resist even if you believe you are innocent.
· If you complain at the scene, or tell the police they’re wrong, do so in a non-confrontational way that will not intensify the scene.
· Do not make any statements regarding the incident.
· If you are arrested, ask for a lawyer immediately.
· Remember officers’ badge numbers, patrol car numbers and physical descriptions.
· Write down everything you remember ASAP.
· Try to find witnesses and their names and phone numbers.
· If you are injured, take photos of the injuries as soon as possible, but make sure you get medical attention first. Ask for copies of your medical treatment files.

Information provided by the NYCLU and the ACLU.

Heh! Originally Posted by boardman

I did post "public sidewalk" ... that's what the picture shows. A "public place"!

I can live with that ... and the law against selling loose cigarettes in NYC.

So much for Garner's ...."Simple presence on a public sidewalk" .....



Are his pockets full of twinkies, cash, or ...... untaxed cigarettes? Or worse?