‘Cancel Order!’ Donald Trump Attacks Plans for Upgraded Air Force One

False choice, Old-T. If I answer "yes" it doesn't mean Boeing gets a fucking blank check. I have enough experience in federal contracting to know how it works and so does Trump. First, they get the contract, then they load it up with "change orders" which are paid on a cost-plus basis and generate the massive cost overruns that you and I as taxpayers get stuck with the bill for.

And don't give me your condescending bullshit about my not believing in the free economy. Someone said it was a no-bid contract - how is that reflective of free market competition? It's not.

I'll take any wager you care to make that Trump won't be flying his own plane after he gets sworn in.

Are you suggesting that the current Air Force One is totally inadequate and leaves the POTUS unsafe and insecure and unable to be in communication with our strategic forces?

Did Odumbo know about that when he flew everywhere on it for the past 8 years? Originally Posted by lustylad

You love to hear yourself talk whether you know what you are talking about or not.

"Cancel" doesn't mean "reduce the price". I am not the one who said he would fly on his plane. Check the posts in front of mine.

Change orders? Why would there be change orders? They aren't driven by Boeing, they are driven by the gov't changing their mind on the requirement after it is on contract. Or agreeing to a bad contract because the gov't is only willing to send in a few young lawyers paid a fraction of what the army of Boeing's lawyers are paid. Happens over and over.

Am I saying the current AF-1 is unsafe today? I won't answer that one. But we aren't talking about a plane that would be flying today. We are talking 8+ years out, and yes, it would not be safe THEN. Of course that should have been reasonably self evident.

Give it to someone else? Really? Who? More federal $$$ to a foreign company and foreign jobs? Why do you think that has been a political non-starter for decades? To say nothing of the opportunity for who knows what kinds of "added surprises" another country might build in. Or have you all of a sudden become far more trusting than you should be?

BTW, Obama cancelled a contract with Sikorsky for new POTUS helicopters on the advice of John McCain. The contract was renegotiated and Sikorsky still built them.

https://www.google.com/amp/political...s-on-hold/amp/

True, and with significantly less capability than the first contract called for. The capability given up was not primarily military capability, but things that State and the White House had originally wanted (not Obama's WH, Bush-2's WH).

Some of the same can be done with AF-1. The biggest thing would be to scale back the number of press who can fit on board. That would allow some significant savings by going to a smaller A/C. It does have other drawbacks however.

You love to hear yourself talk whether you know what you are talking about or not.

"Cancel" doesn't mean "reduce the price".

A threat to cancel is the opening salvo in getting Boeing to stop gouging the taxpayers! Or don't you understand how to negotiate?


I am not the one who said he would fly on his plane. Check the posts in front of mine.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't this part of your last post:

And maybe because Trump wants to use his own plane. Well isn't that smart! No, actually it is quite dumb. Originally Posted by Old-T

Change orders? Why would there be change orders? They aren't driven by Boeing, they are driven by the gov't changing their mind on the requirement after it is on contract. Or agreeing to a bad contract because the gov't is only willing to send in a few young lawyers paid a fraction of what the army of Boeing's lawyers are paid. Happens over and over.

Change orders can be driven by either party. Boeing knows how to find ways to twist the contract specs as the work progresses and unforeseen contingencies arise. And I don't care if you consider yourself underpaid or not, if you represent the taxpayer and let Boeing walk all over you in contract negotiations then you should be fired!


Am I saying the current AF-1 is unsafe today? I won't answer that one. But we aren't talking about a plane that would be flying today. We are talking 8+ years out, and yes, it would not be safe THEN. Of course that should have been reasonably self evident.

Are those reasons to hand Boeing a blank check? You don't have to give the guy across the table the impression that there are NO LIMITS and no budgetary constraints when it comes to the safety of the POTUS. Boeing senses where you're coming from and takes full advantage to gouge, gouge, gouge.


Give it to someone else? Really? Who? More federal $$$ to a foreign company and foreign jobs? Why do you think that has been a political non-starter for decades? To say nothing of the opportunity for who knows what kinds of "added surprises" another country might build in. Or have you all of a sudden become far more trusting than you should be?

What the fuck are you talking about? I never said anything about letting foreign companies bid for a job like this. Surely there are other U.S. defense contractors with similar capabilities who are qualified to bid, either on the entire contract or parts of it. Originally Posted by Old-T

.

Unfortunately, there's not much room in the competitor field of building aircraft such as this. Lockheed builds strictly military now and absorbed Martin aircraft sometime back.
Boeing has absorbed McDonald Douglas, so it doesn't leave a lot to go on unless you want to outsource it to Airbus.
Also some of the other parts of the aircraft are usually outsourced to companies in different parts of the world. Usually it's Japan who gets the contract for some systems.

Some of the same can be done with AF-1. The biggest thing would be to scale back the number of press who can fit on board. That would allow some significant savings by going to a smaller A/C. It does have other drawbacks however. Originally Posted by Old-T

Now you're getting it! Trump could care less about accommodating the press on Air Force One. Let those SOBs fly behind him in a commercial jet in coach class and send him questions via twitter. No more silver spoons for the Fifth Estate!

Lusty,

Ugotme addressed some of your points so I will skip over those.

As to who first mentioned Trump wanting to ride on his own plane, see post #4. No mine. In fact if you read my first long post in this thread, I made it clear that OF CORSE he should not ride in his own plane.

And a blank check? Where have I advocated that? The point was "cancel".

Yes, either side can put forth a change order, but unless:
--(1) the world has changed, making the contracted requirements obsolete (not typical)
--(2) the government changes their mind (much more common, often with the help of pork-selling congressmen)
--(3) the gov't agreed to sloppy/bad contract (see my point in previous post)

the gov't can always reject the proposal coming from the contractor.

So in the end, Trump's "Cancel it" has little real substance to it. Let us see if he is really willing to roll back the WH driven requirements on this one. I will applaud him if he does so intelligently, but so far this is just a PR rant.

Now you're getting it! Trump could care less about accommodating the press on Air Force One. Let those SOBs fly behind him in a commercial jet in coach class and send him questions via twitter. No more silver spoons for the Fifth Estate! Originally Posted by lustylad

We shall see. I would be quite happy if he did that.

I know the Secret Service would be ecstatic!

Unfortunately, there's not much room in the competitor field of building aircraft such as this. Lockheed builds strictly military now and absorbed Martin aircraft sometime back.
Boeing has absorbed McDonald Douglas, so it doesn't leave a lot to go on unless you want to outsource it to Airbus.
Also some of the other parts of the aircraft are usually outsourced to companies in different parts of the world. Usually it's Japan who gets the contract for some systems. Originally Posted by ugotme10

I am aware of the increased concentration in the defense industry. It's been occurring over several decades. Companies like Boeing and McD-D managed to overcome anti-trust objections at the time they merged, and now we're paying for it. Nevertheless, the DOD should have ways to inject more competition into its contracting procedures. A no-bid contract is a license to steal.

So in the end, Trump's "Cancel it" has little real substance to it. Let us see if he is really willing to roll back the WH driven requirements on this one. I will applaud him if he does so intelligently, but so far this is just a PR rant. Originally Posted by Old-T

Everyone should applaud the effort, even if it doesn't yield YUGE savings. The taxpayer needs an advocate in the White House. Trump is putting companies on notice that they should start "doing the right thing when nobody is watching" - if they don't, he will call them out on it.

You're one of those guys who still make the mistake of taking everything he says too literally. "Cancel it" was intended to rattle Boeing. He has already backed off and said he is ok with Boeing making some money, but not gouging the taxpayer.

Everyone should applaud the effort, even if it doesn't yield YUGE savings. The taxpayer needs an advocate in the White House. Trump is putting companies on notice that they should start "doing the right thing when nobody is watching" - if they don't, he will call them out on it.

You're one of those guys who still make the mistake of taking everything he says too literally. "Cancel it" was intended to rattle Boeing. He has already backed off and said he is ok with Boeing making some money, but not gouging the taxpayer. Originally Posted by lustylad

You would think by now, people should take Trump seriously, but not literally.

Everyone should applaud the effort, even if it doesn't yield YUGE savings. The taxpayer needs an advocate in the White House. Trump is putting companies on notice that they should start "doing the right thing when nobody is watching" - if they don't, he will call them out on it.

You're one of those guys who still make the mistake of taking everything he says too literally. "Cancel it" was intended to rattle Boeing. He has already backed off and said he is ok with Boeing making some money, but not gouging the taxpayer. Originally Posted by lustylad

I do tend to take lawmakers and executives literally. Life gets very, very difficult when words lose their meaning.

I hope he succeeds with things like this. We shall see.

A basic plane would of course not cost anywhere near what Air Force does. Of course a basic plane does not have all the specialized electronics that a plane carrying the POTUS does. For example the electronics on the plane have special insulation that protects it from electronic magnetic pulses. That shit ain't cheap. A lot of what is being put into the plane is at the request of the Air Force and the Secret Service. Trump needs to shut up on stuff like this, he has no understanding of what goes into building Air Force One and it appears he does not care to leanr.

The 2 existing 747's came into service in 1990 are very serviceable for many many years to come. He can use those, no need for new pair. Those 2 planes are the most scrutinized, inspected and serviced aircraft on the planet. And with the reduced flight hours compared to an average commercial 747, they have a very extended service life because of it.

Or he can use his own plane, who cares? But spending 100's of millions on development and assembly of unnecessary aircraft is a smart fiscal move.

B-52's have been in service since 1955 and continue to this day. They are expected to be in service into the 2040's. Age of an airframe is virtually unlimited with the proper care and maintenance.

The thing is they can totally replace every part of the aircraft and still keep the original certificate of airworthiness. That means you still have a totally new airplane but the original date of manufacture. A friend used to rebuild cars and sometimes the only original parts were the body with tons of bodywork, and a rebuilt engine. New glass, new upholstery, new wiring, new paint, etc...
Same date of manufacture.
Trump knows how much a custom aircraft will cost, and probably has an idea of how much an AF-1 type aircraft will cost and how much is overblown budget.
What's wrong with keeping costs at a sane price?