WHAT HAPPENS WHEN CITIZENS ARE DISARMED.......

The police arrested the initial rider who caused the confrontation with Lien; the police think the rider is criminally at fault, not driver Lien. It was not an "accident", the rider intentionally got in front of Lien and tried to force lien to stop - according to police charges. Originally Posted by Whirlaway

If that is the case, then this was indeed a bunch of punks out to do no good.

I am all for a law abiding citizen's right to blow the living shit out of thugs who wish to rob us and do us bodily harm.

By the way, if you are out to cause mayhem and destruction, where is the logic in filming it. Real smart bunch we are dealing with here.

According to statistics the bikers would probably have broken off the assault to protect themselves. So much for your bet. Circumstances? I'm not sure what you're talking about there skippy. He had minutes to get his hands on his weapon and defend himself. How many would he have had to shoot before the others got the message? Now I carry and extra magazine which gives me 20 and a box of spare ammo. I'm pretty certain that after the first four, five, or six went down the rest would have seen a man ready to shoot seven, eight, nine, AND ten to protect my family. Those aren't good odds....for the hoodlums. They are hoodlums by the way. They have acted this way before and will again. Someone did something they didn't like and they got violent. The bikers were the agressors. Similar things have happened recently (without the shooting) in KCMO. Bikers with "pocket rockets" took over a section of the interstate while they did tricks in the highway.

Winter is coming!

You failed to address my unstated question as to what YOU believe would have happened to Lien had he been in possession of a gun. Approximately 30 bikers vs. one guy with a gun who, under the circumstances, may not have even been able to reach it before being dragged out of the vehicle.

Had Lien been able to shoot, for the sake of argument, 5 of the 30, what do you personally think the other 25 would then have done to Lien and his family? Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

This is bad for the biker gangs if they were thinking. After seeing this I would use my car to hit any biker that got close. The only thing that keeps them safe is the normal desire of people not to hurt others if possible. Now people will look at this from a self defense perspective and react accordingly. This also provides them with a defense against any charges. After seeing this could anyone in that situation not claim to be in fear for their lives.

He was fairly well armed with a SUV when he hit the bikers knocking one off his bike and doing damage .Why did you think they ran this thug down and kicked his ass?

Yes if he was armed he could have shot and killed 5 or 6 people instead of everyone still being alive.

I think what would have happened is that Lien would have an option to shoot or not shoot depending on his state of mind.....and Lien would have to decide for himself what course of action was appropriate.

Why are you so bent on taking that option away from Lien ?

Since you want me to speculate; here is a reasonable speculation = if new yorkers had the right to carry, this incident may never happened. Originally Posted by Whirlaway

Your last statement is pure, unadulterated bullshit. It's the old argument stated directly or indirectly by you several times that the only way to stop crime is to arm everyone. NY has enacted much stricter laws than many other states and as I showed in an earlier post has a lower death rate due to firearms than all but I believe 3 states, and less than half the rate of Texas. You can't take a single isolated incident and say "See, I told you NY needs less strict gun control laws".

Laws are made to protect the citizens of that state. The laws regarding gun control in NY seem to be working. If the law works for the many and does not possibly work for the few, then obviously you feel bad for the few when it does not work in their favor but applaud the fact that it works for the many.

Regarding your opening statement, which totally avoided answering my question, you're talking about an individual in the heat of the moment having a split second to react to a situation in which he is totally untrained as to how to react. Absolutely no time to make a thoughtful decision. My opinion -- had he had a gun and gone for it, he'd be dead today. Instead, no gun and he walks away with a few stitches.

It is astonishing that you want me to guess what Lien would have done had he been armed.....are you a fucking moron.......what part of speculation don't you understand ?

And how in the fuck does my speculation prove anything to you ?

BTW, I never said the only way to stop crime is to arm everyone...in fact I don't know anyone who ever said any such thing........but if you have a link please provide it. Otherwise your are just blowing smoke and shut the fuck up.

Question: Why are you so intent on taking Lien's options away from him and putting him at the mercy of these kinds of thugs ? Note; my question doesn't require any speculation on your part......

According to statistics the bikers would probably have broken off the assault to protect themselves. So much for your bet. Circumstances? I'm not sure what you're talking about there skippy. He had minutes to get his hands on his weapon and defend himself. How many would he have had to shoot before the others got the message? Now I carry and extra magazine which gives me 20 and a box of spare ammo. I'm pretty certain that after the first four, five, or six went down the rest would have seen a man ready to shoot seven, eight, nine, AND ten to protect my family. Those aren't good odds....for the hoodlums. They are hoodlums by the way. They have acted this way before and will again. Someone did something they didn't like and they got violent. The bikers were the agressors. Similar things have happened recently (without the shooting) in KCMO. Bikers with "pocket rockets" took over a section of the interstate while they did tricks in the highway.

Winter is coming! Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

WOW!! Where to start to correct your incorrect or speculative statements. Would the bikers have broken off the assault if Lien had shown a gun. Please show us the "statistics" to which you are referring. Pure speculation.

Lien is driving and trying to control his vehicle before he comes to a stop. He never had minutes to go for a weapon. Incorrect statement. A split second is more like it. This is a guy who is untrained in such circumstances, under attack by 30 or so bikers, and you expect him to think rationally? I realize that you have enough firepower and enough overconfidence to think you can take on the world. Believe it or not, most rational people think twice before taking the life of the another human being, even if given the time to do so.

The argument about whether or not Lien could have saved himself from a beating had he had a gun in the car is rather moot to me. It is whether or not Lien should have easily been able to be armed in his car. As Whirlybird has stated, in NY city it is more difficult to own a gun than in most other locations. The important argument is whether or not NY should make it easier to own a gun. I say let them decide for themselves and if you don't like the law and it is that important to you, then your option is to live elsewhere. I certainly don't agree with all the gun laws in Texas but they are not of prime importance to me when deciding in which state to live.

And if he had not run into the guy and broke his leg none of this would have happened

BL; you didn't read the story.............the police arrested the biker who they say instigated the accident. He purposely rode in front of the SUV, trying to get it to stop. The NYPD didn't file charges against the SUV driver, but against the biker.

And the guy with the broken leg was part of the mob that was swarming the SUV after the accident. Again, no charges filed against the SUV driver because the bike mob created the conditions that led to the SUV hitting the rider......NYPD is looking to make more arrests of the bikers who participated in the assault.

Read the story.

WOW!! Where to start to correct your incorrect or speculative statements..... Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

Too fucking funny; you don't like speculative statements, but you want people to speculate on what Lien would have done if he was armed !



You liberal retards are entertaining !

It is astonishing that you want me to guess what Lien would have done had he been armed.....are you a fucking moron.......what part of speculation don't you understand ?

And how in the fuck does my speculation prove anything to you ?

BTW, I never said the only way to stop crime is to arm everyone...in fact I don't know anyone who ever said any such thing........but if you have a link please provide it. Otherwise your are just blowing smoke and shut the fuck up.

Question: Why are you so intent on taking Lien's options away from him and putting him at the mercy of these kinds of thugs ? Note; my question doesn't require any speculation on your part...... Originally Posted by Whirlaway

You are as dumb as they come. I speculated as to what I think would have happened to Lien had he been armed and gone for a gun. He'd be dead. Can't you do the same?
If your outcome is different than mine, no problem. The fact that you refuse to speculate (i.e. give an opinion) shows who the true moron is. Even Barley speculated on what might have happened.

It is not a jump from statements you have made to the assumption that you would believe that everyone should be armed in order to lower the crime rate. You have recently made statements on the shootings at the Washington Naval Shipyard and in this thread that would lead the average person to come to such a conclusion. Had Lien been armed he would have saved himself from a beating.

I've answered your question at least twice so far. I assume I need to do it a 3rd time. Maybe it will take this time.

The state of NY, and the city of NY, have passed gun laws that they believe protect the majority of the citizens. From several sources citing firearm homicides per 100,000 people, NY and NY City have among the lowest homicide rates of any state/city in the U.S. If one person (Lien) suffers for the good of the overwhelming majority, what should be done -- change a law restricting gun ownership that seems to be working very well for most everyone else??? The only speculation that comes into question is what would happen to the homicide rates in NY and NY city if the gun laws in affect were relaxed to allow the average citizen to own a gun. Care to speculate?

Too fucking funny; you don't like speculative statements, but you want people to speculate on what Lien would have done if he was armed !



You liberal retards are entertaining ! Originally Posted by Whirlaway

Again, you are showing off your stupidity. As usual. I never said I didn't like or appreciate speculative statements. It is knowing what is and isn't a speculative statement. Barley made a statement which was 100% speculative and tried to pass it off as fact. The bikers would have broken off their attack if confronted with gunfire???

Try reading and understanding before criticizing.

No you just wanted to correct JD for "speculating" wrongly...................

that's funny.

And No you haven't answered the question; you only regurgitated existing NY state laws....

Again, Why are you so intent on taking away Lien's options to defend himself ?

I will speculate your answer, since you want to dodge:

Answer: Because you don't think Lien should have an option (like a handgun) to defend himself !