Found another nice chart. I, as most, do like a little visual stimulation.
I guess that's the difference between you, me, the Tea Party and corporations who don't pay Federal taxes. You're perfectly fine voting for and supporting the GOP while they are in office racking up this ridiculous debt and picking fights around the globe. But the very minute they're no longer in control you start kicking and screaming about taxes and debt as if you didn't know anything about it before they lost power. I'm not happy about it, but I have fully expected to have my taxes increased the very minute GWB took office and starting spendng Clinton's savings account. If you're truly not happy about paying higher tax rates, then you and the Tea Party should strongly consider writing your congressen about their economic policies and starting next year, stop voting against your own economic interests next election. Entitlements are not going away Coder, not ever. Might as well get that ridiculous idea out of your head now and come join the rest of us in the real world. Originally Posted by F-SharpI hate to burst your bubble, but I haven't voted GOP in decades. I'll admit I love it when the Tea Party sticks to fiscal conservatism (hey, it's a first step in the right direction) but can't stand their religious right calls for violence (yes, I have attended a Tea Party event and was very disappointed).
Uh, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't "Clinton's savings account" actually add to the national debt? It was the strong economic bubble that showed the debt as a percentage of GDP that decreased. Originally Posted by rCoderClinton was in office for eight years. Six of those were deficit years, two were surplus.
Scenario, the economic problems continue to escalate until we get a total collapse. Extremely doubtful the "entitlements" would survive. I'd much rather see slashing "entitlements" now than suffer an economic collapse. Think of it as amputating a gangrene leg or two. Originally Posted by rCoderTotal collapse will only happen if taxes are not raised, I am most certain the Bush tax cuts will be left to expire in 2013. Entitlements are never going away, too many people depend on them, and quite simply they are not the culprit behind our debt. The whole idea of abandoning benefits for 100 million people in this country that depend on them is seriously asinine Coder. Less people than that voted in the general election in 2010! It just ain't gonna happen.
U.S. SPENDING IN IRAQor would you rather we provide benefits to veterans?
About $900 billion of US taxpayers' funds spent or approved for spending through November 2010.
Lost & Unaccounted for in Iraq - $9 billion of US taxpayers' money and $549.7 milion in spare parts shipped in 2004 to US contractors. Also, per ABC News, 190,000 guns, including 110,000 AK-47 rifles.
Lost and Reported Stolen - $6.6 billion of U.S. taxpayers' money earmarked for Iraq reconstruction, reported on June 14, 2011 by Special inspector general for Iraq reconstruction Stuart Bowen who called it "the largest theft of funds in national history." (Source - CBS News) Last known holder of the $6.6 billion lost: the U.S. government.
Missing - $1 billion in tractor trailers, tank recovery vehicles, machine guns, rocket-propelled grenades and other equipment and services provided to the Iraqi security forces. (Per CBS News on Dec 6, 2007.)
Mismanaged & Wasted in Iraq - $10 billion, per Feb 2007 Congressional hearings
Halliburton Overcharges Classified by the Pentagon as Unreasonable and Unsupported - $1.4 billion
Amount paid to KBR, a former Halliburton division, to supply U.S. military in Iraq with food, fuel, housing and other items - $20 billion
Portion of the $20 billion paid to KBR that Pentagon auditors deem "questionable or supportable" - $3.2 billion
U.S. Annual Air-Conditioning Cost in Iraq and Afghanistan - $20.2 billion (Source - NPR, June 25, 2011)
U.S. 2009 Monthly Spending in Iraq - $7.3 billion as of Oct 2009
U.S. 2008 Monthly Spending in Iraq - $12 billion U.S. Spending per Second - $5,000 in 2008 (per Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid on May 5, 2008)
Clinton was in office for eight years. Six of those were deficit years, two were surplus.Surprisingly I agree with most of these proposals. Except for getting rid of the Air Conditioning in Iraq and Afghanistan, lol. It's freaking hot over there!
Total collapse will only happen if taxes are not raised, I am most certain the Bush tax cuts will be left to expire in 2013. Entitlements are never going away, too many people depend on them, and quite simply they are not the culprit behind our debt. The whole idea of abandoning benefits for 100 million people in this country that depend on them is seriously asinine Coder. Less people than that voted in the general election in 2010! It just ain't gonna happen.
Coder, let me ask you some questions...not insinuating that these are even trade-offs but...
Would you rather give $20 billion a year to oil companies in subsidies and tax breaks or have Social Security?
Would you rather give $40 billion a year to countries like Pakistan and Egypt or have Medicare?
Would you rather allow companies such as GE who cut 34,000 jobs from this country and sent 25,000 of them overseas in the last ten years to continue to avoid paying anything in Federal taxes, or would you prefer to have unemployment insurance?
Would you rather spend:U.S. SPENDING IN IRAQor would you rather we provide benefits to veterans? Originally Posted by F-Sharp
About $900 billion of US taxpayers' funds spent or approved for spending through November 2010.
Lost & Unaccounted for in Iraq - $9 billion of US taxpayers' money and $549.7 milion in spare parts shipped in 2004 to US contractors. Also, per ABC News, 190,000 guns, including 110,000 AK-47 rifles.
Lost and Reported Stolen - $6.6 billion of U.S. taxpayers' money earmarked for Iraq reconstruction, reported on June 14, 2011 by Special inspector general for Iraq reconstruction Stuart Bowen who called it "the largest theft of funds in national history." (Source - CBS News) Last known holder of the $6.6 billion lost: the U.S. government.
Missing - $1 billion in tractor trailers, tank recovery vehicles, machine guns, rocket-propelled grenades and other equipment and services provided to the Iraqi security forces. (Per CBS News on Dec 6, 2007.)
Mismanaged & Wasted in Iraq - $10 billion, per Feb 2007 Congressional hearings
Halliburton Overcharges Classified by the Pentagon as Unreasonable and Unsupported - $1.4 billion
Amount paid to KBR, a former Halliburton division, to supply U.S. military in Iraq with food, fuel, housing and other items - $20 billion
Portion of the $20 billion paid to KBR that Pentagon auditors deem "questionable or supportable" - $3.2 billion
U.S. Annual Air-Conditioning Cost in Iraq and Afghanistan - $20.2 billion (Source - NPR, June 25, 2011)
U.S. 2009 Monthly Spending in Iraq - $7.3 billion as of Oct 2009
U.S. 2008 Monthly Spending in Iraq - $12 billion U.S. Spending per Second - $5,000 in 2008 (per Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid on May 5, 2008)
Seriously though, whether you agree or not with our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan, I can tell you from personal experience that the lack of oversight on the money spent was and still is appalling. Originally Posted by DTorrchiaI would argue that both conflicts were completely unecessary and in the long term a complete waste of time. I think in 10-20 years they will be right back where we found them...run by some shitheal pocketing their oil money. I think we could have easily accomplished far more with a lot less, and I think finding and finally killing Bin Laden proved that.
I don't think turning out back on them completely and making them an outright enemy will lead us in a positive direction. If we were to pull ALL of our troops out of the entire region then we could probably afford to go the route of cutting off all foreign aid in the region. I'm not convinced however that we wouldn't be sucked back into that quaqmire sooner or later at an even higher cost. Originally Posted by DTorrchiaI would say they are already "enemies" if that's what you want to call it. Our differences in culture are just far too vast, especially as far as Pakistan is concerned. I'd be curious to know in detail what the amount of money we've given them has gained us as far as intelligence or support is concerned.
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."
"All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills."
Found another nice chart. I, as most, do like a little visual stimulation.Remember when Ross Perot was running for Boss and had big flip charts to make his points? He was widely scorned by political insiders who said that charts and graphs make no impression on American voters who long for "stories" they can understand, preferably short enough to fit on a bumper sticker and suitable for shouting.
Originally Posted by F-Sharp
Unless you are in the top 1 or 2 % in terms of income you do not have a team. Originally Posted by greymouseI think that the more zealous among us have a tendency to disregard and dismiss charts and facts in general because they misunderstand the intention. By taking a side in a discussion politically based, the zealous most often come to some default conclusion that you MUST be on the side of the other team. Go back and read responses to many of my posts and tell me how many times I've been accused of being an Obama lover, a liberal or a socialist. The truth is, I am none of the above. I simply go where the facts lead me. I think this is true for anyone who actually takes the time to read and understand these charts or better yet, goes as far as I do to confirm their accuracy. Until everyone starts taking the time to understand what the real problems are and understand what the possible solutions might be in a realistic way, nothing's ever going to change in this country. Regrettably, we are stuck with the lesser of two evils much of the time.
I'm not insinuating one single damn thing, I am simply sharing facts. Easily obtainable facts at that. If you bothered to read the links I posted or did just a little fact gathering you would know that there is no such thing as a "Social Security Fund". Since 1969 the government has operated on a unified budget. You care to point out one single politician to me who says this isn't true? I'm glad you're glad I find humor in such ridiculous statements as illegals receiving Social Security. It's complete nonsense. No Social Security benefits can legally be paid to illegal immigrants. Not now, not ever! This is simply beyond intelligent dispute and I won't waste any more of my time addressing it.you don't have enough space on a pae to show Hussein's spending increases. Remember, Clinton's surpluses were only projected, and went away when the war started. The surpluses never materialized.
http://www.ssa.gov/ssi/spotlights/spot-non-citizens.htm
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/03/soc...al-immigrants/
http://www.factcheck.org/article447.html
Interesting. You make absolutely no mention of the Iraq or Afghanistan "debacles" that have cost far more in both money and lives. I am not convinced you have your priorities straight Sir.
This statement has no basis in fact and makes absolutely no sense. Ever bothered to look at a historical tax rate chart or compare spending by party in the last 50 years or so? You care to explain to me where Democrats have wanted "never ending tax increases" to justify spending they inacted? I challenge you to do so!
In a nutshell it went something like this:
Reagan lowered the marginal tax rate to 38.5% in 1987 and again down to 28% in 1988. Those tax cuts ultimately increased our debt to the tune of about 20% debt/gdp, or you can call it $2 trillion if you prefer. His economic policies also lead to a steep rise in inflation and ultimately a recession.
GHWB then has to raise that rate to 31% to make up some of that deficit and cost of inflation. (*Note to self, GWHB raised taxes to cover Republican spending, GWHB was not a Democrat!) Unfortunately his Budget Enforcement Act is not enough when you throw the end of the Cold War and a war with Iraq in to the mix. GWHB ultimately raised our debt/gpd by another 13%, or $1.5 trillion. "Read my lips, no new taxes", I heard him state ever so firmly on my television screen back in 1988.
So that brings us to 1993 and along comes Clinton sitting on a National debt of $4.6 trillion created mostly by our two former wealth-trickling-voodoo-economic presidents. Clinton was the only President since Carter (*Note to self, Carter also a Democrat) to reduce our National debt. Yes, Clinton did indeed raise the marginal tax rate to 39.6%, and guess what it worked. Not only did we enjoy record economic gains, but also record job growth.
Let's repeat that for DTorrchia and the other slow kids at the back of the room. Carter and Clinton are the only two Presidents that have actually reduced our National debt since 1977. Both Democrats. I won't even go in to the spending enacted during Bush Jr's terms as you've wasted enough of my time already. We'll reserve the Obama discussion for when his terms are over in 2016, and I will predict for you here that the Bush tax cuts will be left to expire in 2013 and we will have a reduction in our National debt by the time his two terms are finished.
Perhaps you care to revise your ridiculous statement, or at very least make an attempt to provide some factual data to support it?
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=213
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...idential_terms
Originally Posted by F-Sharp
you don't have enough space on a pae to show Hussein's spending increases. Remember, Clinton's surpluses were only projected, and went away when the war started. The surpluses never materialized.
To cut real spending, Congress would have to 100% defund the DOEducation, NEA, DOEnergy, NPR, and ObamaCare, and return the power to the states like it should be.
If you were to double the taxes paid by the wealthiest Americans, you would only get an extra 248 bil dollars. That is nowhere near a drop in the bucket and would not even come close to fixing our national debt. Some increases to the uber wealthy, you and I, and the 51% of Americans who pay 0 taxes plus the above listed cuts would be a real good start.
The above mentioned cuts are real, and not baseline cuts. Then we need Social Security and Medicare reform to boot.
Now, quit arguing based on being Republican and Democrat, because they have both stuck it to all of us where the sun don't shine equally. Most voters base their votes on the letter D or R after a candidate's name. This is a great disservice to yourself and your fellow Americans.
Take this example into consideration. Gov. Scott Walker of Wisconsin went through hell and back for removing the teachers rights to collective bargaining for pension and healthcare, but prevailed in the end. What most people don't know is that the health insurance for the teachers was administered by the union itself, and therefore they increased rates to get more money from government in exchange for campaign money. The insurance rates were also the highest rates for any health insurance in the state of Wisconsin. After the bill was passed, the insurance rates were drastically cut, and so much money was saved (over 1 mil per school district) that all districts in Wisconsin had a budget surplus to begin this school year. Oh, and all those bafooms that were protesting at the capital received raises due to the surpluses. They really look like an ass now, but are paying into their own pension and healthcare instead of expecting tax payers to pay it for them. The teachers salaries in that state were on the average 40% higher than the people they wanted to pay their pension and medical insurance premiums. See, real reform works.
Also as a side note. The Wisconsin Gov. office released figures in 2009 showing how they spent the stimulus money they got from Obama. They received upwards of 700 billion, and over 600 bil went to pay those teacher pension and medical insurance premiums. What a waste. I thought that was for "shovel ready" jobs Originally Posted by iman77