OBAMA HEALTH CARE IN ACTION

I'd rather be at the mercy of my government that at the mercy of my insurance company. Originally Posted by TexTushHog

When I read this thread I am reminded of the wise words of one of my most favourite philosophers and an enlightened former American President....



“Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.” Thomas Jefferson

Great quote from a guy who used slaves for his 'labors' and died in debt.

When I read this thread I am reminded of the wise words of one of my most favourite philosophers and an enlightened former American President....



“Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.” Thomas Jefferson

AND MOST IMPORTANT:

Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases.” – Thomas Jefferson
After all these years, his words are set in stone and speak truth even today.
Lest we forget what we have fought and many have died for, we will surely lose what we take for granted and is most valuable to us- our freedom.
KKA

Originally Posted by KlassyKelliAnn

Sa artman,

"If the children are untaught, their ignorance and vices will in future life cost us much dearer in their consequences than it would have done in their correction by a good education." --Thomas Jefferson to Joseph C. Cabell, 1818.

With all due respect, sir, I find your comment to be most ignorant. It may; however, be innocent ignorance, for now, that is. I find most people become too quick to judge the actions of others in history and it is when they fail to see and comprehend the actual science of human disposition- cause and effect -and many other situations they fail to truly understand and learn from our history.

I do not deny you the opinion and fact you reserve according to this man. He was indeed a slave owner. Slavery is wrong and inhumane in all forms. But do NOT miscontrue what you have NO experience with. Do NOT judge a time in which you have never lived. One must admire a man as educated and naturally intelligent as Jefferson and many others- men and women who were NOT at all perfect, people just like you and I. I am celebrating the goodness of this person thereby not focusing on the negative which is what too many people do and they become the downfall of humanity and are those who REJECT the notion of learning from history.
I suggest a person learn all their history before spewing injusitfiable accusations of a legend who did indeed help give us what we have today which is the American Legacy and the freedom it is founded upon. It came with a price and yes it began with injustice but it is what it is and we must learn from it- not be hateful and negative with history because history has already proven that there has been enough of that.

Some quick facts that do not justify Jeffersons behavior but can lead to a better understanding of him:

Jefferson fought hard to free the slaves. ALL of them
He was rejected in his ideas in talks with others.
He shut up because he lived in a time where you just didnt DO that
He needed to be liked and elected to bring forth his ideas
He shut up
He was elected and brought forth the argument again
America being what it was then- Jeffersons ideas were looked down upon and he was not backed by the others so slavery stayed on
He was an inventor, philosopher, architect, teacher and much more than just a politician.
He was good to ALL those in his employ and his slaves ( NO IT DOES NOT MAKE THE INSTITUTION ANY BETTER BUT THIS IS A FACT!)

He punished those (as soon as he found out) in his employ for harming his slaves

His ideas and teaching and even his inventions, art and more have molded our country into a greatness defined by others as "ahead of its time" and exemplary"

Former slaves, some set free and decendents have remarked how kind and unlike any "other white folk" Jefferson was as a human. Many AA today rave about him in academic studies and lectures. They speak of him with the positivity and kindness for all that he truly believed in and worked for, though he was unsuccessful and a product of his time.


Class Dismissed.

KKA

I'd rather be at the mercy of my government that at the mercy of my insurance company. Originally Posted by TexTushHog

+1

When I read this thread I am reminded of the wise words of one of my most favourite philosophers and an enlightened former American President....



“Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.” Thomas Jefferson

AND MOST IMPORTANT:

Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases.” – Thomas Jefferson

After all these years, his words are set in stone and speak truth even today.
Lest we forget what we have fought and many have died for, we will surely lose what we take for granted and is most valuable to us- our freedom.

KKA

Originally Posted by KlassyKelliAnn

Just because a man has good ideas, doesn't mean they are all good. Albet Einstein, creator of the theory of realitivity, was also one of the minds responsible for the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Txn5inThick,

Very true. Never said ALL ideas were good. Never said Jefferson didnt have fault in him. We are only human and we must adhere to the laws in place, but we can (and these two men HAVE) make a difference through enlightening and educating a people. Einstein knew he messed up when he did that, he even proposed or rather insisted his work be used for good and not evil- yet being a genius he knew man in general is too arrogant and greedy to have listened to this. Great point though, but my belief is that we should really become the historian and learn from our history. We will never be able to put ourselves into the shoes of those in the past- but we can learn from them in so many ways- especially the ones who have done harm to others- whether only a few or a great many. My biggest problem with humanity is that they fail to learn or they simply dont want to. And that is what will have the biggest impact on our future....and not for the better.


KKA

Whoa. Way to use the ignorance slander early on. I just fired a shot across the bow. Well, I guess my secondary minor in history may save me a little. I think it's better than wiki or google, which so many think is a quality substitute. I do take the man in context next to his words. Jefferson is often over quoted just because his strong anti strong central government stance, but in reality he despised people of color, Indians and in the most subtle way, Christians. He was quite liberal and if he was a modern day President we would probably not be a super power. I don't deny the man was a genious of rhetoric and eloquence, but his utopian views of a country run by farmers does not fit modern America.

Sa artman,

"If the children are untaught, their ignorance and vices will in future life cost us much dearer in their consequences than it would have done in their correction by a good education." --Thomas Jefferson to Joseph C. Cabell, 1818.

With all due respect, sir, I find your comment to be most ignorant. It may; however, be innocent ignorance, for now, that is. I find most people become too quick to judge the actions of others in history and it is when they fail to see and comprehend the actual science of human disposition- cause and effect -and many other situations they fail to truly understand and learn from our history.

I do not deny you the opinion and fact you reserve according to this man. He was indeed a slave owner. Slavery is wrong and inhumane in all forms. But do NOT miscontrue what you have NO experience with. Do NOT judge a time in which you have never lived. One must admire a man as educated and naturally intelligent as Jefferson and many others- men and women who were NOT at all perfect, people just like you and I. I am celebrating the goodness of this person thereby not focusing on the negative which is what too many people do and they become the downfall of humanity and are those who REJECT the notion of learning from history.
I suggest a person learn all their history before spewing injusitfiable accusations of a legend who did indeed help give us what we have today which is the American Legacy and the freedom it is founded upon. It came with a price and yes it began with injustice but it is what it is and we must learn from it- not be hateful and negative with history because history has already proven that there has been enough of that.

Some quick facts that do not justify Jeffersons behavior but can lead to a better understanding of him:

Jefferson fought hard to free the slaves. ALL of them
He was rejected in his ideas in talks with others.
He shut up because he lived in a time where you just didnt DO that
He needed to be liked and elected to bring forth his ideas
He shut up
He was elected and brought forth the argument again
America being what it was then- Jeffersons ideas were looked down upon and he was not backed by the others so slavery stayed on
He was an inventor, philosopher, architect, teacher and much more than just a politician.
He was good to ALL those in his employ and his slaves ( NO IT DOES NOT MAKE THE INSTITUTION ANY BETTER BUT THIS IS A FACT!)

He punished those (as soon as he found out) in his employ for harming his slaves

His ideas and teaching and even his inventions, art and more have molded our country into a greatness defined by others as "ahead of its time" and exemplary"

Former slaves, some set free and decendents have remarked how kind and unlike any "other white folk" Jefferson was as a human. Many AA today rave about him in academic studies and lectures. They speak of him with the positivity and kindness for all that he truly believed in and worked for, though he was unsuccessful and a product of his time.


Class Dismissed.

KKA Originally Posted by KlassyKelliAnn

Whoa. Way to use the ignorance slander early on. I just fired a shot across the bow. Well, I guess my secondary minor in history may save me a little. I think it's better than wiki or google, which so many think is a quality substitute. I do take the man in context next to his words. Jefferson is often over quoted just because his strong anti strong central government stance, but in reality he despised people of color, Indians and in the most subtle way, Christians. He was quite liberal and if he was a modern day President we would probably not be a super power. I don't deny the man was a genious of rhetoric and eloquence, but his utopian views of a country run by farmers does not fit modern America. Originally Posted by Sa_artman

I apologize about how I used the word. Ignorance is not what I always consider a bad unforgivable thing if it isnt something used as a crutch or relied on as a substitute for thought. I didnt not at all mean that you, sir, were ignorant but just not experienced, if you will, in the matters of digging deeper as a historian. Many people think everything they see or read or hear is true. In fact, many of the education taught in American schools is lacking. A historian goes beyond all that and only examines primary documents and sources in order to make informed judgements. That is all I was trying to say and it may have come across a way that wasnt intended. I do apologize for that.

As far as WIKI goes: I never use it. It is unreliable and plagarizes too much. It is not a credible source in any way.

I appreciate your insight and I am always glad to debate with another interested in history. It is something I recieved a Masters in. But I do my history in a way most people prefer to either just read or not do at all. I find it very powerful.

As Jefferson grew and aged and his wisdom of experience began to unfold, he changed many of his former (man swayed) judgements and prejudices. IF you check the dates most carefully you will find he wrote most of his hateful and unbalanced comments pertaining to other races in earlier years before he became sympathetic to the human life in general. It is with experience we learn alot about who we are as people and most important and intimately as a person. People can change their views and stop the hatred. I think in many ways Jefferson did try. But like I said, he was not perfect. I think he could have been a better man. I think he should not have been so concerned with wht others thought of him and he should have fought for what was right- but then we mix politics into it all, and greed and power- then well, you know. It gets complicated and all messed up.

I appreciate your thoughts and again I did not mean to come across as rude or mean in any way.


KKA

You are indeed 'Klassy' and your eloquence matches your other great assets. Indeed, maybe next trip around we can discuss the separation of sex and politics.

I apologize about how I used the word. Ignorance is not what I always consider a bad unforgivable thing if it isnt something used as a crutch or relied on as a substitute for thought. I didnt not at all mean that you, sir, were ignorant but just not experienced, if you will, in the matters of digging deeper as a historian. Many people think everything they see or read or hear is true. In fact, many of the education taught in American schools is lacking. A historian goes beyond all that and only examines primary documents and sources in order to make informed judgements. That is all I was trying to say and it may have come across a way that wasnt intended. I do apologize for that.

As far as WIKI goes: I never use it. It is unreliable and plagarizes too much. It is not a credible source in any way.

I appreciate your insight and I am always glad to debate with another interested in history. It is something I recieved a Masters in. But I do my history in a way most people prefer to either just read or not do at all. I find it very powerful.

As Jefferson grew and aged and his wisdom of experience began to unfold, he changed many of his former (man swayed) judgements and prejudices. IF you check the dates most carefully you will find he wrote most of his hateful and unbalanced comments pertaining to other races in earlier years before he became sympathetic to the human life in general. It is with experience we learn alot about who we are as people and most important and intimately as a person. People can change their views and stop the hatred. I think in many ways Jefferson did try. But like I said, he was not perfect. I think he could have been a better man. I think he should not have been so concerned with wht others thought of him and he should have fought for what was right- but then we mix politics into it all, and greed and power- then well, you know. It gets complicated and all messed up.

I appreciate your thoughts and again I did not mean to come across as rude or mean in any way.


KKA Originally Posted by KlassyKelliAnn

I'd rather be at the mercy of my government that at the mercy of my insurance company. Originally Posted by TexTushHog

The trouble is that you can always ditch your ins co and get another. We can't do that with the govt.

The trouble is that you can always ditch your ins co and get another. We can't do that with the govt. Originally Posted by jceeman

I thought that was what elections where for? Obviously the majority spoke up.

I thought that was what elections where for? Obviously the majority spoke up. Originally Posted by Sa_artman

You're always stuck with only one government. If 50% plus one votes to eat McDonalds then that's what *everyone* has to eat. Thank goodness we don't do things that way. (and if we did then what was "right" and "healthy" to eat would become political footballs just like abortion and birth control)

I normally try not to get involved in stuff like this but my main man Tom is spinning in his Monticello grave so I gotta say something . . . .

Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases.” – Thomas Jefferson Originally Posted by KlassyKelliAnn

Uh . . . no.

The first part of this is a completely misattributed to Jefferson. It was actually said by Gerald Ford but is often assigned to Jefferson by conservatives trying to claim Jefferson as their own. AFAIK there is nothing in any of Jefferson's writings that even comes close to this. (You can find the text of Ford's speech with the original quotation here: http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=4694)

The second part is also not Jefferson. It's probably lifted from an actual Jefferson letter where he wrote: "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield, & government to gain ground." What Jefferson actually wrote has, quite obviously, an entirely different meaning than what you're quoting. In fact, he wasn't even writing about the size of government in that letter. He was actually commenting on the lack of term limits for the President and the Senate in the original Constitution and his desire to see an amendment that would change that. (You can find the original text of the letter - along with nearly all of the original text of Jefferson's writings - published on the web here: http://oll.libertyfund.org/index.php...1734&Itemid=27)

Unfortunately, conservatives and liberals alike love to claim Jefferson as their own and love to put words in his mouth like this. If you take the time to read his original writings you'll see that his political and moral philosophy was far more complex than what you're claiming. His actions as President were certainly no where near the philosophy your quotation suggests. He expanded the size and power of central government to new heights while he had the office. Not exactly the vision to claim for him.

Most of the other things you've written about him are also just a little naive. You're putting out what is known as the "apologist's view" of Jefferson which honestly doesn't do the man justice. This is the way America wants to remember Jefferson but he was far more interesting than that. Your vision of Jefferson was made popular by Dumas Malone's brilliant 6-volume biography. But while Malone deserved the Pulitzer he won for his writing, we now know that his scholarship was just plain wrong. Jefferson's own writings just don't mesh with what Malone wrote and Malone conveniently ignored nasty little bits of Jefferson's life like his relationships with Sally Hemmings and Maria Cosway while painting Jefferson as a pure moralist with few, if any, flaws.

Malone also put forth the view of Jefferson as a repressed anti-slaver that you posted. In fact, while you have Jefferson "shutting up" about slavery because of public pressure many, many others - most notable John Adams - were speaking up loud and strong against it. Jefferson was neither silent about it nor open in public about what he really thought. The actual words in his letters tell the real story - which is somewhere between your and Sa_artman's view.

If you're really interested in Jefferson then go to the link I posted above and read his original texts for yourself. You'll soon discover that 90% of what you think about him is wrong. He wasn't anything like the clear-cut philosophical visionary today's political factions make of him. He's just a convenient icon for modern politicians because he changed his mind so often over the years that you can make it seem like he supported anything.

Sorry to drone on like a librarian about this. It's just that Tom is my personal hero. The self-serving characterizations of him being put out by both sides of the political spectrum just make me sick. He deserves better than to have his legacy twisted to the whim of political bullshit.

Class Dismissed.

Excellent idea.

Cheers,
Mazo.

Just because a man has good ideas, doesn't mean they are all good. Albet Einstein, creator of the theory of realitivity, was also one of the minds responsible for the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Originally Posted by Txn5inThick

and what is wrong with this, it is estimated that it would have cost the US 1 million troops to invade Japan

and I believe Jefferson fathered and a few mixed races?

The first part of this is a completely misattributed to Jefferson. It was actually said by Gerald Ford but is often assigned to Jefferson by conservatives trying to claim Jefferson as their own. AFAIK there is nothing in any of Jefferson's writings that even comes close to this. (You can find the text of Ford's speech with the original quotation here: http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=4694) Originally Posted by Mazomaniac

Gerald Ford was a conservative. Wow that is news. I was thinking he was a Republican.