Religious Freedom and Private Property Rights

JD wants a cake with a big dick on it....

JD wants a cake with a big dick on it.... Originally Posted by i'va biggen

.....To laugh at you sucking on it!

What risk are you talking about? Just for sake of this thread lets say you have an ice cream parlor and it just so happens you really don't like Asians, they just irk the fuck out of ya. One day this ono yoko looking scank enters the parlor wanting a cup of cherry vanilla. apart from the fact she is clearly Asian, she's dressed nice and places her order articulately. But you tell her anyway that you don't serve Asians. She tells you she's able to pay for her order and will leave. but you still refuse her business. To me that dilutes you as a person. Now on the flip side of the coin lets say you serve her without protest or regret, and patrons seated eating ice cream later tell you they are disappointed in you for serving the slope and they'll never come back to your shop because you serve Asians, who are nasty sneaky people. Even if you have a business to run you can't be a slave to others and their beliefs and you have to be careful on how far you take your own. I honestly believe that people regardless of their religion and ethnic background are all basically the same. We all want to be liked, respected, seen as interesting unique individuals by our peers .But we all have our differences as well, that's what makes life interesting.

Jim Originally Posted by Mr MojoRisin

Even if I stipulate everything you have said to be true, how does it support the law requiring appropriate behavior? Trust capitalism to get it right and correct the worst excesses.
Now, consider this scenario: Let's say I own a bakery, and I'm known to dislike Muslims, and hate to serve them. I think they want to kill me because I'm Jewish. But the law says I have to serve them. They gleefully come in and order a cake that says Muslims Rule! I clearly don't want to make such a cake, but the law says I have to do so. They get in my face and demand that fucking cake or else they will sue. I have no option but to make the cake or go to jail. I think I'm in a dream and running a bakery in the old Russia.
Whats to stop me from rubbing the flour all over my dick and pissing in the dough, then smearing some filthy bacon on top of it?

What risk are you talking about? Just for sake of this thread lets say you have an ice cream parlor and it just so happens you really don't like Asians, they just irk the fuck out of ya. One day this ono yoko looking scank enters the parlor wanting a cup of cherry vanilla. apart from the fact she is clearly Asian, she's dressed nice and places her order articulately. But you tell her anyway that you don't serve Asians. She tells you she's able to pay for her order and will leave. but you still refuse her business. To me that dilutes you as a person. Now on the flip side of the coin lets say you serve her without protest or regret, and patrons seated eating ice cream later tell you they are disappointed in you for serving the slope and they'll never come back to your shop because you serve Asians, who are nasty sneaky people. Even if you have a business to run you can't be a slave to others and their beliefs and you have to be careful on how far you take your own. I honestly believe that people regardless of their religion and ethnic background are all basically the same. We all want to be liked, respected, seen as interesting unique individuals by our peers .But we all have our differences as well, that's what makes life interesting.

Jim Originally Posted by Mr MojoRisin

I completely agree with you. I just question the role of government in business.

Even if I stipulate everything you have said to be true, how does it support the law requiring appropriate behavior? Trust capitalism to get it right and correct the worst excesses.
Now, consider this scenario: Let's say I own a bakery, and I'm known to dislike Muslims, and hate to serve them. I think they want to kill me because I'm Jewish. But the law says I have to serve them. They gleefully come in and order a cake that says Muslims Rule! I clearly don't want to make such a cake, but the law says I have to do so. They get in my face and demand that fucking cake or else they will sue. I have no option but to make the cake or go to jail. I think I'm in a dream and running a bakery in the old Russia.
Whats to stop me from rubbing the flour all over my dick and pissing in the dough, then smearing some filthy bacon on top of it? Originally Posted by Jewish Lawyer

You're a Baker. You pride yourself in the art of baking beautiful confections. For you to rub flour on your dick and piss in the dough over a stinkin Muslim, you just wouldn't be able to live with yourself. What you do is bake the cake to your usual standards but serve it to the Muslim without any writing and inform him you will not take part in his inflammatory slogan.

Jim

.....To laugh at you sucking on it! Originally Posted by Jewish Lawyer

I would have to knock your head off of it first.

Even if I stipulate everything you have said to be true, how does it support the law requiring appropriate behavior? Trust capitalism to get it right and correct the worst excesses.
Now, consider this scenario: Let's say I own a bakery, and I'm known to dislike Muslims, and hate to serve them. I think they want to kill me because I'm Jewish. But the law says I have to serve them. They gleefully come in and order a cake that says Muslims Rule! I clearly don't want to make such a cake, but the law says I have to do so. They get in my face and demand that fucking cake or else they will sue. I have no option but to make the cake or go to jail. I think I'm in a dream and running a bakery in the old Russia.
Whats to stop me from rubbing the flour all over my dick and pissing in the dough, then smearing some filthy bacon on top of it? Originally Posted by Jewish Lawyer

That sounds like a perfectly reasonable response to stress.

Oh yes. Private property rights. Here's a scenario. You and your family for 4 generations have farmed 2000 acres for more than 100 years. Your family is buried on the land in the family cemetery. Now a foreign oil producer wants to pump their oil across your land with a pipeline built by very powerful and wealthy interests. What happens next? Does money trump private property rights?

Oh yes. Private property rights. Here's a scenario. You and your family for 4 generations have farmed 2000 acres for more than 100 years. Your family is buried on the land in the family cemetery. Now a foreign oil producer wants to pump their oil across your land with a pipeline built by very powerful and wealthy interests. What happens next? Does money trump private property rights? Originally Posted by lostincypress

Well since there are graves on that land that alone could pose a legal issue for the oil company. If the pipeline posed any chance of disturbing the sacred character of the graves there possibly would be a Desecration of Graves issue. That could throw a wrench in their plans to run a pipeline.


Jim

You are following along with what has been incorrectly said about this bill and not the real bill (kind of like piling on Sarah Palin for a comment made by a comedian impersonating her)

Here is how it works; Since we've been talking bakeries...you own a bakery. It is yours outright. It is 100% your property and you have some strongly held beliefs. Religious beliefs. People come in your bakery everyday and order cakes, designer bread, brownies, and other assorted pastries. No problem with anyone who comes in.

Now on three separate days you get a lesbian couple, Arayan nationa types, and Fred Phelps and family. The lesbian couple wants a wedding cake with two women on top. You apologize and say that you can't in good conscience participate in any way in something you think is wrong. You give them the number to another bakery who will do just as good a job as you. They leave. You know one of the women, she comes in all the time for some cherry tarts and you have no problem serving her. You're not against gay people, you just don't believe in gay marriage. If they ordered a birthday cake you would have happily made it.

The next day two guys with shaved heads and tats come in the door. They want a swastika shaped cake that says "All Jews Must Die: 80 years of ethnic purity". You tell them that you're sorry (not really) but you can't help them. They want to know why. You tell them that your religion says that all people are equal in the eyes of God and you can't express such sentiments for them even in frosting. They walk out mad and without asking for another address. You shout that they should try some brownies, they are so good that they could change your outlook on life.

The following day a gaggle of idiots shows up outside your door. Phelps and his tribe of lawyers come inside. They say that they heard about what you did with the lesbians and they want cupcakes made. Each cupcake should have a message; "God hates faggots", Faggots must die", "Homos are diseased", etc. You choke your bile down and tell them not just no, but HELL NO! Please leave my store now! My religion teaches me to hate the sin but love the sinner can I sell you some lemon creme puffs.

In each case the store owner can now be sued (it is a private business that is open to the public and not a public business) by any of the three groups. Your defense of religious principals is no longer protected by the Constitution and you become subject to state sponsored oppression. Going back to Germany; a person could attack a Jew, literally murder them in the street, and the state would officially look the other way to your crime which isn't a crime in late 1930s Germany. Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

More shitty examples.

You are treating people who are born a certain way (gay) the same as people expressing loathsome, hateful opinions.

The law distinguishes between discrimination based on immutable characteristics - race, gender, ethnicity, disability, sexual orientation - and discrimination based on thing that are not immutable.

If a black person wanted to buy a cake for a black college fraternity centennial party and you refused on ANY ground - religious or otherwise - to do do because of your opinions regarding black people, you are violating the law.

No one would believe that your baking of a cake for them is somehow an endorsement of their fraternity. And your free speech right or religious rights would not trump their rights not to be treated as second class citizens.

Why would gays be any different?

The Nazis and the Phelpses are always free to change their opinions and YOU are free not to support their speech. Bigoted opinions are NOT an immutable characteristic - you, IFFY, and BJerk notwithstanding.

Oh yes. Private property rights. Here's a scenario. You and your family for 4 generations have farmed 2000 acres for more than 100 years. Your family is buried on the land in the family cemetery. Now a foreign oil producer wants to pump their oil across your land with a pipeline built by very powerful and wealthy interests. What happens next? Does money trump private property rights? Originally Posted by lostincypress

Do the graves of the dozen or so people cover ALL 2000 acres? I think not. So, they can angle the pipe around them, right? If somehow they can't, then dig em up!

And this isn't an example of money trumping private property rights.

It is an example of a common carrier getting an easement to land to build a public accommodation.

Whether you know it or not, pipelines are treated like railroads, power lines, and highways. And just as railroads get easements, so do oil and gas companies. That is why we have 100s of thousands of miles of pipeline in this country.

Railroads and electrical utilities are powerful and wealthy, too. The fact that powerful and wealthy interests are getting the easements is irrelevant.

They are the only ones who can get the job done. Who ELSE is going to build a 500 mile pipeline? People with NO money?

Do the graves of the dozen or so people cover ALL 2000 acres? I think not. So, they can angle the pipe around them, right? If somehow they can't, then dig em up!

And this isn't an example of money trumping private property rights.

It is an example of a common carrier getting an easement to land to build a public accommodation.

Whether you know it or not, pipelines are treated like railroads, power lines, and highways. And just as railroads get easements, so do oil and gas companies. That is why we have 100s of thousands of miles of pipeline in this country.

Railroads and electrical utilities are powerful and wealthy, too. The fact that powerful and wealthy interests are getting the easements is irrelevant.

They are the only ones who can get the job done. Who ELSE is going to build a 500 mile pipeline? People with NO money? Originally Posted by ExNYer

I think if they were to dig up a grave they might later occupy them compliments of the surviving family, just saying.

Jim

If someone wants your property for a project you are fucked ....

More shitty examples.

You are treating people who are born a certain way (gay) the same as people expressing loathsome, hateful opinions.

The law distinguishes between discrimination based on immutable characteristics - race, gender, ethnicity, disability, sexual orientation - and discrimination based on thing that are not immutable.

If a black person wanted to buy a cake for a black college fraternity centennial party and you refused on ANY ground - religious or otherwise - to do do because of your opinions regarding black people, you are violating the law.

No one would believe that your baking of a cake for them is somehow an endorsement of their fraternity. And your free speech right or religious rights would not trump their rights not to be treated as second class citizens.

Why would gays be any different?

The Nazis and the Phelpses are always free to change their opinions and YOU are free not to support their speech. Bigoted opinions are NOT an immutable characteristic - you, IFFY, and BJerk notwithstanding. Originally Posted by ExNYer

Who's to say racists aren't born that way?
Are they subject to conversion therapy?

Do the graves of the dozen or so people cover ALL 2000 acres? I think not. So, they can angle the pipe around them, right? If somehow they can't, then dig em up! Originally Posted by ExNYer

exactly ....plus if you don't dig em up you run the risk of a possible Poltergeist situation, and nobody wants that.