Lincoln's Inversion of the American Union

anybody willing to,speculate why Whirlytards threads are getting bumped by the same two idiots?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HA!

not so nearly bizarre. He was not responsible for what happened after 1865, that has more to do with Andrew Johnson and his bad interactions with the Radical Republicans.

However, Lincoln did lay the foundation for a larger govt. Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

If that's the price that had to be paid to eliminate slavery, I'll pay it.

If that's the price that had to be paid to eliminate slavery, I'll pay it. Originally Posted by ExNYer

Nice sentiment, Ex. Except you weren't one of the almost half a million killed. Slavery would have ended in a few years, regardless. Then, think about all the freedom we ALL have lost, regardless of race, as a result of the consolidation of power at the federal level.

Slavery was the excuse. Power was the reason.

Nice sentiment, Ex. Except you weren't one of the almost half a million killed. Slavery would have ended in a few years, regardless. Then, think about all the freedom we ALL have lost, regardless of race, as a result of the consolidation of power at the federal level.

Slavery was the excuse. Power was the reason. Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

yep, the industrial revolution that was to come would have made slavery obsolete. I think owning a slave would be more expensive during the industrial revolution.

The promise of 40 acres and a mule was made by a Union general...Sherman I think but I could be wrong on this one thing. It was never government policy. I object to reparations because in any civil matter the amount of responsibility is allocated by the courts. Since the U.S. didn't exist in 1637, when the first African slaves arrived, you have to start by blaming England, Holland, and Spain for slavery. When the U.S. did exist as a political entity in 1781 each state had different laws so you have to divide the blame further. 80 years later one half of the country went to war against the other half of the country to, among many things, end slavery. This occurred at great cost in blood and treasure which I think pays the debt fully. The Confederacy was the only political entity in the area that actually codified slavery in their constitution. So we can blame the south for five years worth of slavery. At this point a lawyer would jump up and point out to the court that the slaves were not citizens in a legal sense and therefore have no standing in the court. This same argument could be made against native Americans for many of them were not citizens until 1927. This argument would be useful for the Japanese immigrants (but not the native born Americans) and the 137,000 hispanics deported under FDR. Have any American citizens been deprived of their property without due process (excluding slaves)? Yes, right here in Missouri General Ewing issued general order 11 which forced the displacement of American citizens from their property in three Missouri counties. These citizens were never paid for their property and many found their property in either ruins or occupied by their neighbors following the war. This I do think deserves reparations because those were Americans (Lincoln never allowed that the states were in rebellion so never ceased to be Americans).

In response to one comment; the government following the Civil War was larger than it was before the war but much smaller than today. That much is obvious and a given. My contention is that the government grew again in World War I, got larger under progressive policies, and ballooned in World War II.

Nice sentiment, Ex. Except you weren't one of the almost half a million killed. Slavery would have ended in a few years, regardless. Then, think about all the freedom we ALL have lost, regardless of race, as a result of the consolidation of power at the federal level.

Slavery was the excuse. Power was the reason. Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Depends on what you might term as slavery. There were people working in sweat shops 7 days a week for not much money prior to unions. No I am not.

We are never going to assign blame appropriately for slavery, other than the all purpose villain white people. So let's just get it over with and pay descendents of former African-American slaves appropriately and eliminate affirmative action since it and a thousand other perpetual government programs are justified for roughly the reason that the legacy of slavery and discrimination are the cause of black dysfunction.

Nice sentiment, Ex. Except you weren't one of the almost half a million killed. Slavery would have ended in a few years, regardless. Then, think about all the freedom we ALL have lost, regardless of race, as a result of the consolidation of power at the federal level.

Slavery was the excuse. Power was the reason. Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

+1

Right COG............

Nice sentiment, Ex. Except you weren't one of the almost half a million killed. Slavery would have ended in a few years, regardless. Then, think about all the freedom we ALL have lost, regardless of race, as a result of the consolidation of power at the federal level.

Slavery was the excuse. Power was the reason. Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

What is appropriate JL? Should Oprah get a cut? How about Magic Johnson? What about someone who went to school, worked hard, and became a CEO like Herman Cain? Do they get a cut of my money? My family lost land and money after the Civil War (we used to own 17 square miles of Clinton county) and my family was on the winning side. Carpet baggers came in to depressed areas and bought up or forced land owners to sell at cut rate prices. Maybe we should have reparations for them. How about a little more socialism and just divide up the pie equally.


Also, a strong case has been made many times that slavery was on the way out. It cost money to hold slaves, more money than to hire workers and the international community was against slavery. At some point the Confederate states would have had to get out of the business if they wanted to trade with England, France, or Germany. That was the major sticking point for England not coming in with the south during the war. If the CSA had freed the slaves it would have been a difference outcome.

What is appropriate JL? Should Oprah get a cut? How about Magic Johnson? What about someone who went to school, worked hard, and became a CEO like Herman Cain? Do they get a cut of my money? My family lost land and money after the Civil War (we used to own 17 square miles of Clinton county) and my family was on the winning side. Carpet baggers came in to depressed areas and bought up or forced land owners to sell at cut rate prices. Maybe we should have reparations for them. How about a little more socialism and just divide up the pie equally.


Also, a strong case has been made many times that slavery was on the way out. It cost money to hold slaves, more money than to hire workers and the international community was against slavery. At some point the Confederate states would have had to get out of the business if they wanted to trade with England, France, or Germany. That was the major sticking point for England not coming in with the south during the war. If the CSA had freed the slaves it would have been a difference outcome. Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

Maybe as reparations for these red-neck losses, we could cut the interest rates on student loans for the loser descendants of these red necks. Fucking leaches.

What is appropriate JL? Should Oprah get a cut? How about Magic Johnson? What about someone who went to school, worked hard, and became a CEO like Herman Cain? Do they get a cut of my money? My family lost land and money after the Civil War (we used to own 17 square miles of Clinton county) and my family was on the winning side. Carpet baggers came in to depressed areas and bought up or forced land owners to sell at cut rate prices. Maybe we should have reparations for them. How about a little more socialism and just divide up the pie equally.


Also, a strong case has been made many times that slavery was on the way out. It cost money to hold slaves, more money than to hire workers and the international community was against slavery. At some point the Confederate states would have had to get out of the business if they wanted to trade with England, France, or Germany. That was the major sticking point for England not coming in with the south during the war. If the CSA had freed the slaves it would have been a difference outcome. Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

We could phase out recipients above a certain income level. It could also be construed as reparations for racism, eliminating the need for quotas, affirmative action, etc.
Assuming your family is white, they are outta luck. It isn't a good time to be a white person in America.
Your own government scorns you.

Nice sentiment, Ex. Except you weren't one of the almost half a million killed. Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Are you referring to all of the Africans who died in the process of being captured and transported to the New World?

Slavery would have ended in a few years, regardless. Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

How do you know this? What makes you think Southern whites would EVER give it up? Do you think they would ever allow blacks to be free? They wrote slavery right into their state constitutions and cited support for it in their articles of secession. The wholre reason they seceded in the first place was because they were about to be outvoted EVEN though they were already OVER-represented due to the 3/5ths Compromise.

Even AFTER slavery was ended, Southern whites enforced segregation for another century.

Do you really believe they would go to the trouble of seceding and destroying the US and risking a murderous civil war all for the sake of a slavery institution that "would have ended in a few years" anyway?

Slavery was the excuse. Power was the reason. Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

You must be referring to the power of white Southerners to own another human being.

For a guy who constantly hectors us about our lose of rights and freedoms, you seem to have NO regard for the rights and freedoms of millions of black slaves.

Instead, you whimper about the lack of proper process in slowly winding down slavery.

You're not really a libertarian when it comes to black people are you?

Right COG............ Originally Posted by Whirlaway

Well, surprise, surprise, Sergeant Carter. The board's top Obama-hater thinks that Southerns got a raw deal. You really are a stone racist, aren't you?

The promise of 40 acres and a mule was made by a Union general...Sherman I think but I could be wrong on this one thing. It was never government policy. I object to reparations because in any civil matter the amount of responsibility is allocated by the courts. Since the U.S. didn't exist in 1637, when the first African slaves arrived, you have to start by blaming England, Holland, and Spain for slavery. When the U.S. did exist as a political entity in 1781 each state had different laws so you have to divide the blame further. 80 years later one half of the country went to war against the other half of the country to, among many things, end slavery. This occurred at great cost in blood and treasure which I think pays the debt fully. The Confederacy was the only political entity in the area that actually codified slavery in their constitution. So we can blame the south for five years worth of slavery. At this point a lawyer would jump up and point out to the court that the slaves were not citizens in a legal sense and therefore have no standing in the court. This same argument could be made against native Americans for many of them were not citizens until 1927. This argument would be useful for the Japanese immigrants (but not the native born Americans) and the 137,000 hispanics deported under FDR. Have any American citizens been deprived of their property without due process (excluding slaves)? Yes, right here in Missouri General Ewing issued general order 11 which forced the displacement of American citizens from their property in three Missouri counties. These citizens were never paid for their property and many found their property in either ruins or occupied by their neighbors following the war. This I do think deserves reparations because those were Americans (Lincoln never allowed that the states were in rebellion so never ceased to be Americans).

In response to one comment; the government following the Civil War was larger than it was before the war but much smaller than today. That much is obvious and a given. My contention is that the government grew again in World War I, got larger under progressive policies, and ballooned in World War II. Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

One things for sure, you're not a radical republican!

Are you referring to all of the Africans who died in the process of being captured and transported to the New World?


How do you know this? What makes you think Southern whites would EVER give it up? Do you think they would ever allow blacks to be free? They wrote slavery right into their state constitutions and cited support for it in their articles of secession. The wholre reason they seceded in the first place was because they were about to be outvoted EVEN though they were already OVER-represented due to the 3/5ths Compromise.

Even AFTER slavery was ended, Southern whites enforced segregation for another century.

Do you really believe they would go to the trouble of seceding and destroying the US and risking a murderous civil war all for the sake of a slavery institution that "would have ended in a few years" anyway?


You must be referring to the power of white Southerners to own another human being.

For a guy who constantly hectors us about our lose of rights and freedoms, you seem to have NO regard for the rights and freedoms of millions of black slaves.

Instead, you whimper about the lack of proper process in slowly winding down slavery.

You're not really a libertarian when it comes to black people are you?


Well, surprise, surprise, Sergeant Carter. The board's top Obama-hater thinks that Southerns got a raw deal. You really are a stone racist, aren't you? Originally Posted by ExNYer

LOOK> a "race card" playing Republican...Nice