More evidence...

I still want to understand why you think the Left caters to boozers and partiers. The whole prospect of it is baffling to me. If you have some shred of proof of this I would love to hear it. Originally Posted by F-Sharp

I will answer that question, if you can point out where I said that. I said that the left caters to people like my mom and stepdad... not because they are/were boozers and partiers, but because they are poor. So whatever handouts/concessions are currently available (or you want to make available) for the poor, they are also included in that demographic. I'm sure there are a lot of rich boozers and partiers out there, whom the left doesn't give two shits about.

And, I really don't know what I mean when I say poor - most people who are poor know they are poor without you having to put a dollar amount to it. As for me, I make just a bit over 30k a year after taxes, so I guess I would be considered the middle class, like those that the rich people have declared war on? Yet I am living very comfortably, manage to put some money in savings every month, and even have some spare cash to hobby with from time-to-time Thus, I would not consider myself to be poor.

As for me, I consider myself a social liberal, but a fiscal conservative.

I still want to understand why you think the Left caters to boozers and partiers. The whole prospect of it is baffling to me. If you have some shred of proof of this I would love to hear it. Originally Posted by F-Sharp

Top statement describes my stance.

I seem to recall a study that said the numbers of users were similar but that left favored that thing that called the kettle black by @10% I will post it if I see it again.

I will answer that question, if you can point out where I said that. Originally Posted by WorknMan

Ahem.

Take my mom and stepdad for example... they spent the majority of their adult lives boozing it up and living the party lifestyle. Now they're in their early 60s, with health so bad that they can barely walk, and hardly a penny to their name, sans whatever paltry amount they get from the government. Originally Posted by WorknMan

And, I really don't know what I mean when I say poor - most people who are poor know they are poor without you having to put a dollar amount to it. As for me, I make just a bit over 30k a year after taxes, so I guess I would be considered the middle class, like those that the rich people have declared war on? Yet I am living very comfortably, manage to put some money in savings every month, and even have some spare cash to hobby with from time-to-time Thus, I would not consider myself to be poor. Originally Posted by WorknMan

I have some good news and bad news for you WorknMan. At "a bit over 30k a year" you are poor. Not so poor you don't have a pot to piss in, but poor all the same. The currenty poverty baseline stands at $22,350 per year. If you've managed to put something away and are living comfortably at that income level, you're a better man than I...meaning there's no way in hell I could do it. That's the good news.

Here's the bad, at that level of income there's no way in hell you'll ever make enough money to retire on. Most these days are saying that $1 million + will get you about $40k a year if you manage it wisely and you live long enough to enjoy a few golden years. You might think that sounds like a lot, and of course it's more than you're making now, but you have to remember that as you age, you're going to rack up some serious medical expenses. How do you suppose you're going to be paying for those medical expenses when you're retired? You better plan on moving to a third world country, or you're gonna be drawing on some of those programs you currently consider designed for people who call themselves victims.

Let's do some math. Most people put away an average of 10% of their income if they're lucky. In your case, that's $3000 a year. Do that for 40 years compounded at 5% and you end up with $401,639 and change, not including taxes and investment fees and the like. Do it for 30 years and you can cut that number in half. One major surgery without Medicare and you can kiss that money goodbye.

Social security and Medicare exist for a reason. That reason is to keep you from eating cat food and performing surgery on yourself when you're at the crossroads getting ready to pass over and meet up with all those relatives you argued with at Thanksgiving for all those years. You still think the left "caters" to the victims you call poor, or are they simply trying to look out for people such as yourself who try to make an honest living on an sub-honest wage?

I have some good news and bad news for you WorknMan. At "a bit over 30k a year" you are poor. Not so poor you don't have a pot to piss in, but poor all the same. The currenty poverty baseline stands at $22,350 per year. Originally Posted by F-Sharp

Well, if I am considered poor, then I'd love to see how the middle class are living Right now, I live in a decent apartment, have plenty of food in the fridge, a car that runs reliably, health insurance, a few grand in the bank in case of emergencies, and I can afford to get laid every once in awhile. Would I like to have more? Sure, but what else do I need? My income is more than enough to sustain me.

If I had to define 'poor' in my own terms, it would be somebody surviving off ramen noodles and trying to figure out how they're going to pay next month's rent. I started out there, except I was so dumb that I didn't even know what ramen noodles were I was living in a motel that you probably wouldn't even take a hooker to, and I was making a HELL of a lot less than $22,350. In fact, if you were to adjust for inflation, it would've been about $16,500. I'm not even sure if that's above minimum wage these days. To me, living in poverty means that somebody is going hungry and/or doesn't have a roof over their head, and I was never that destitute. Perhaps we should have government programs for these people to help them find jobs, assuming we don't already ...

Here's the bad, at that level of income there's no way in hell you'll ever make enough money to retire on.

Well, I've been in the workforce for about 15 years, and have already doubled my income, even in this economy. Odds are that I'm going to do that again at least twice before I hit retirement age, and that is assuming that I expend the same amount of effort that I have been, which is probably about 20% of my actual potential.

The nice thing about a starting salary is that you're not stuck there. You think people who are making 6-7 figures started out that way? Even if you have a job flipping burgers, hopefully after about 10 years or so, you will have at least worked your way up to store manager.

If you're over 30 years old and still working a McJob (e.g. - minimum wage), and somebody could train an immigrant with no real employment skills and no understanding of the English language to do your job in a week or two, then perhaps we should deport your ass and let the immigrant have a shot at the American dream. He would probably do better at it than you.

As for retirement itself, that is probably a topic for a different thread ...

You still think the left "caters" to the victims you call poor, or are they simply trying to look out for people such as yourself who try to make an honest living on an sub-honest wage?

For starters, you didn't really know anything about me before asking this question, except how much I make. So, why do you automatically assume that I need looking out for? Quite frankly, I find that a bit insulting.

To be honest, my dad was willing to pay my way through college back in the day, so I went for about a year at a community college, and then dropped out, because I was more concerned with playing video games and chasing pussy than getting an education. Even with the handout I was given, I did not take advantage of it. (Which was one of the many mistakes I made back then.) So, my dad sent me out on my ass, as he damn well should have.

A lot of people went further who had it a lot worse than me, including my sister. While I went to live with my dad, my sister unfortunately ended up living with my mom (because my dad was not her dad). My mom would often go out all night drinking and leave her alone, often with nothing in the pantry except maybe some flour or something, so my sister survived on biscuits, literally. She left home with nothing, and still managed to put herself through college, and now makes a lot more money than I do.

So, what does that say about me? It says the fact I started out with nothing is nobody's fault but my own. So do I expect the government to come to my rescue, even if I were still living in that shitty motel? Of course not... why the fuck would I? If I lost my job tomorrow, I could afford to live for several months at my current standard of living, and add a few more to that if I were to max out the one credit card that I have. If I ended up at that point with $0, I'd try to get a loan somewhere. Failing that, if there were some sort of government handout that I was eligible for, then I guess I'd take it. But even then, I'd probably be like Cinderella Man and pay it all back as soon as I got the chance. In other words, when it comes to handouts, I don't want, nor do I deserve a goddamn thing.

For starters, you didn't really know anything about me before asking this question, except how much I make. So, why do you automatically assume that I need looking out for? Quite frankly, I find that a bit insulting. Originally Posted by WorknMan

It wasn't intended as an insult. My comments are based on your income level and what little you shared. Based on the numbers alone it's a reasonable assumption you're going to need to tap some of these programs at some point in your life.

Inicidentally, why do you consider these programs as "handouts"? You do realize that you, me, and every other tax-paying working stiff contributes to these programs right? I think it would be pretty stupid of anyone who's paid in to Social Security and Medicare all their working lives to not take advantage of them if and when needed. I personally have been working and paying in to those programs for close to thirty years now, and that makes for a significant portion of my income dedicated to them. You bet your ass I will be drawing Social Security and Medicare at every opportunity.

Inicidentally, why do you consider these programs as "handouts"? You do realize that you, me, and every other tax-paying working stiff contributes to these programs right? Originally Posted by F-Sharp

Look, I'm not going to debate you on Social Security and Medicare... perhaps another time.

My only reason for posting to this thread is because you asked:

Give us some examples of what you feel are social ills people create for themselves.

And I have given some examples, including my own. And I could probably give a couple dozen more if I were inclined to do so.