Expression, Information & Dignity in an Open Marketplace

haha! that's actually a good one. i like you eryn you have a good spirit Originally Posted by John Taffer

And since I am pissed right now...which most would be surprised because its very RARE when I actually am pissed and not just typing in that manner....we all know you are a provider and not a guy, so STFU cause we are laughing at you.

as if anyone gives a shit whether or not you have something to add Originally Posted by John Taffer

you seem to...... on the rag at the moment?

you seem to...... on the rag at the moment? Originally Posted by Whispers

Potentially a case of the "other" handle being Banned right now

Toyz, they do serve some great Sauerkraut in Walburg, but sometimes it has certain side effects... it will be all blown out by tomorrow morning...

Wash it down with a few beers

Whoa. Perhaps you are expressing some leftover vehemence from the epistolary duel you had with EJ last night. I don't wish to engage/anger/bore you further with this tedium. But I believe if you reread my post in the light of a clear day, perhaps you will see that I have clearly not condemned you in any way. Far from it. In fact I was addressing points that Centaur made in his OP. Had you not made the initial postings that instigated a parallel discussion in this thread, there would be no reason to have mentioned you at all. You will notice I said that you often post things in humor. My point in that particular paragraph is that it will often degenerate into something entirely different indeed.

Let me be succinct:
1: You have the right to single out providers, their pricing, TCB and even their physicality as an analysis of reasonable rates for this particular market.
2: I posit that while in theory, offering a response to the providers here is not offensive in and of itself, the degeneration from positive feedback to abject ridicule is. You will note I did not make you responsible for that degeneration. Nor did I say that you were an indiscriminate ridiculer
3: Providers are not businesswomen. They mostly have zero acumen in this regard as we all know. If, as Centaur points out this critique could be construed as an opportunity for learning for providers about what their market says in response to their pricing, well it went right over their heads.And it will continue to do so for most.
4: The gratuitously base comments and vituperation made by some people against providers distracts from the legitimacy of this being a real opportunity of open market discussion. An argument I posit to Centaur's post. Not as an attack on you. No attacks at all, just a discussion.
5: The gentleman may stand by their right to critique a woman and her business, I stand by my less than flattering view of those who take it to vulgar hyperbole.


It's really that simple.


I have stayed out of this thread mostly (and quite honestly) because I found it boring beyond belief.

However, with some of Ms V's statements I feel motivated to offer just a couple of tidbits.

#1 I don't apologize for anything I have posted,If you think I was looking for some sort of contrition from you, I'm not. and surprisingly think there is more of a need of that
type of post. I am motivated now to continue... Should commenters take it in different directions, that's the nature of a co-ed open communications board. THIS is what I have a problem with. And they do take it to a whole different level, but I am not obligated to be supportive of, nor have my lady boner stoked about "that's just the way it goes" No cloven hooves here, I'm not a sheep.. As I always offer if some don't want to read what I pen, then put me on ignore and save yourselves!

What Ms V, and a few others are MISSING (actually trying to ignore as if it is insignificant) were the VOTES by the actual purchasers of the product.You really think I "missed" that??? I can assure you, I did not. Let that sink in...the actual customers were provided a very liberal range to show how they would spend their hobby dollars...You must be confusing me for someone without a brain. Believe me, I get, and always got your point. Yes, yes, I "get" they have valuable opinions and voted in accordance to those opinions, that is not in dispute.and almost to a man they voted in a median range. I would propose if I put (random example) Tori Cappellis (an Austin legend) on here with her rates, most would grudgingly say "yah, shes damn sure worth it". Again, no problem with this.

Hardly anyone agreed with the posted prices of the girls I chose to copy. Another thing to note is I merely COPIED what they put in their Ads. There was nothing made up. I let them stand on their merit & let the public ink their thoughts. Again, no problem.

I am fully aware this is some girls livelihood. BUT THAT DOES NOT IN ANY WAY PROVIDE THEM PROTECTION OF THE PURCHASING PUBLIC FROM DEBATING THEIR NET WORTH AS A COMMODITY. If you are going to advertise it, then you are opening yourself up to having it critiqued...We're not out of agreement here.

OF COURSE it is often much more than just an exchange of favors for cash...but at its root and CERTAINLY what Ms V holds out as the primary topic of discourse is the AFFECTING OF THE PAY STRUCTURE moreso than any feelings of hurt pride. I don't really give a fuck about hurt pride, but I really, really give a fuck about reason and fairness. And I know you do too, so you can say you don't give a fuck but I know that's not true.


In no way did I say...or really many at all say...that they didn't think the girls in the threads were not worth anything...Did I EVER say that you said that? Did I even insinuate it? they said they saw them as overpriced if you want to be honest and put it out there. I actually voted on the high side, but I agree their asking price-vs what was offered-was high.

The fact that you post " If anything it buttressed many providers' rancor and damn near caused a universal raising of rates in solidarity" actually brought ME a bit of humor in this boring football watching night. I would actually challenge those thinking this to go ahead, rolllllll those dice..RAISEEEE those rates....see how many times the phone rings. Like it or not, its a competitive market and solidarity is not something that is likely to occur. Nope. It ain't. We can't even get together for tea, I don't see a Hooker Union forming anytime soon. And where is the Hoogar Mantra #1 "I have all the business I can handle"? I know if I personally see price inflammation because of a couple of co-ed chat topics, I will shift my funds to others in a show of WTF??? Sorry, my PERSONAL feelings (not speaking for anyone else but myself) is that the prices are capped...I simply won't pay many of the asking rates anymore. And I have companionship anytime I want with a text or two or a PM or two...hell part of the time its ME that gets the text "want some company"? {or an occasional trip to our neighbor to the north where the prices-and I will boldly state-selection is stellar.

I know most of this is posted in some manner to continue to work the "shame on you" That's where you're wrong. There is no shame on Toyz in my post. angle that EJ launched into last night, but we're all adults here...and there is little shame in the sex trade...so in my very humble opinion its a dangerous card to play...and that's not shaming.

I'm sick of hearing "you should be ashamed" You're not hearing that from me to you personally. I will pull zero punches when I say that I have been disgusted by others posting on the boards. in all of its various guises because some girls are concerned they might not make their top asking rate on occasion because many in the hobby are tapped out by the increasing prices in this market. I'm not entirely convinced the "you should be ashamed" is coming from a cadre ONLY interested in protecting their pricing, but perhaps also in response to some pretty shameful behaviors.

And to your final paragraph...as cold as this may sound...If a provider didn't already suffer from crippling fear, self loathing and self doubt, she may well find these types of examinations most propitious to that end If the hobby is too tough to hear criticism again, it's not criticism I have an issue with, its the abject mockery, scorn, and derision some people seem to find so easy I have an issue with. of your work (and you want to give up this extremely lucrative endeavor), then find another line of business (not at you specifically Ms V but in general). Cause tomorrow there will be 10 newbies willing to face the slings and arrows to cash that $5 a minute paycheck. Its a competitive industry. But no different from what many of us face at work. Its a job. Want a premium salary? Deliver a premium experience & you won't have to worry about your rate...word of mouth and reviews will carry you.

Its a high turnover business, and this probably makes it no easier I understand. But its not my...or any purchaser of services...job or responsibility to "go quietly into the night with benjamins bursting forth from your pocket". I am personally OFFENDED by some holding out that a couple of threads on a Hoogar board, or questioning prices, might be the trigger to some horrific ending. Again, please show me where I said this. EJ said this, I didn't. I that being subjected to gratuitous derision may implode someone's self esteem. Please tell me this is wrong. When the obvious intent is to NOT have any prices, pictures, services questioned by the people that pay for it. Don't insult my meager intelligence with such drivel. I didn't. That was someone else. Keep your bitches straight Toyz!

The comments on the threads...even at their worst....were no different than many personal back and forths that go on here. Here's where we diverge. I think there were much worse comments than yours. The REASON I feel some girls are offended is more about "I don't want that to happen to me". Yes, you're right. And "I don't want to have my rates affected" and also, "I don't want to be publicly humiliated" moreso about any feelings for the two who have participated.

If this puts me in a bad light with certain girls, I really.don't.give.a.fuck. Sorry I'm not coming off politically correct but right now I am pissed. You know I think the world of you, but we are very far off on this topic from agreement. No, we're not. You just got hot under the collar and took my post out of context and personally. (and might I say unnecessarily so on both accounts)

I have ALWAYS operated with a certain financial limit on my personal hobbying. Its more a moral thing than a financial one. I have ALWAYS treated any girl I see with the utmost of respect, becoming close friends with several that have gone way beyond the boundaries of this hobby. That doesn't happen if you are a callous jerk. If I find a girl I like...and I don't think she is worth the rate she asks (most I DON'T find their rates offensive)...I will politely offer a different amount...if she refuses...never any hard feelings & we go on. I'm not doing this for selfish reasons. Honestly the two girls highlighted in the posts that are causing a VERY small but vocal backlash, I have no desire to see & never would. Keep their prices high, lower them, wont matter cause I have no interest myself.

And I am not done with these postings, the only question is...Who will be next? They create interest, and lots of fellow Johns enjoy them....if a MOD thinks I am breaking any rules, I will quit...but to date I have broken no rules nor have I been made aware of any I have broken. I have had very nice off the board convos with a few providers regarding these topics. Very interesting what is said in private vs what is said in public. Certainly this is true, but one also shouldn't underestimate a good sucking up as it were to perhaps save themselves from scrutiny.

Now...off of the soapbox..and am making New Orleans Pralines so have to stir the sugar now....

And so you see you have expended precious energy disputing points on which we never disagreed with in the first place. No need to leave the prah-leens unattended.

Whoa. Perhaps you are expressing some leftover vehemence from the epistolary duel you had with EJ last night. I don't wish to engage/anger/bore you further with this tedium. But I believe if you reread my post in the light of a clear day, perhaps you will see that I have clearly not condemned you in any way. Far from it. In fact I was addressing points that Centaur made in his OP. Had you not made the initial postings that instigated a parallel discussion in this thread, there would be no reason to have mentioned you at all. You will notice I said that you often post things in humor. My point in that particular paragraph is that it will often degenerate into something entirely different indeed.

Let me be succinct:
1: You have the right to single out providers, their pricing, TCB and even their physicality as an analysis of reasonable rates for this particular market.
2: I posit that while in theory, offering a response to the providers here is not offensive in and of itself, the degeneration from positive feedback to abject ridicule is. You will note I did not make you responsible for that degeneration. Nor did I say that you were an indiscriminate ridiculer
3: Providers are not businesswomen. They mostly have zero acumen in this regard as we all know. If, as Centaur points out this critique could be construed as an opportunity for learning for providers about what their market says in response to their pricing, well it went right over their heads.And it will continue to do so for most.
4: The gratuitously base comments and vituperation made by some people against providers distracts from the legitimacy of this being a real opportunity of open market discussion. An argument I posit to Centaur's post. Not as an attack on you. No attacks at all, just a discussion.
5: The gentleman may stand by their right to critique a woman and her business, I stand by my less than flattering view of those who take it to vulgar hyperbole.


It's really that simple.


I have stayed out of this thread mostly (and quite honestly) because I found it boring beyond belief.

However, with some of Ms V's statements I feel motivated to offer just a couple of tidbits.

#1 I don't apologize for anything I have posted,If you think I was looking for some sort of contrition from you, I'm not. and surprisingly think there is more of a need of that
type of post. I am motivated now to continue... Should commenters take it in different directions, that's the nature of a co-ed open communications board. THIS is what I have a problem with. And they do take it to a whole different level, but I am not obligated to be supportive of, nor have my lady boner stoked about "that's just the way it goes" No cloven hooves here, I'm not a sheep.. As I always offer if some don't want to read what I pen, then put me on ignore and save yourselves!

What Ms V, and a few others are MISSING (actually trying to ignore as if it is insignificant) were the VOTES by the actual purchasers of the product.You really think I "missed" that??? I can assure you, I did not. Let that sink in...the actual customers were provided a very liberal range to show how they would spend their hobby dollars...You must be confusing me for someone without a brain. Believe me, I get, and always got your point. Yes, yes, I "get" they have valuable opinions and voted in accordance to those opinions, that is not in dispute.and almost to a man they voted in a median range. I would propose if I put (random example) Tori Cappellis (an Austin legend) on here with her rates, most would grudgingly say "yah, shes damn sure worth it". Again, no problem with this.

Hardly anyone agreed with the posted prices of the girls I chose to copy. Another thing to note is I merely COPIED what they put in their Ads. There was nothing made up. I let them stand on their merit & let the public ink their thoughts. Again, no problem.

I am fully aware this is some girls livelihood. BUT THAT DOES NOT IN ANY WAY PROVIDE THEM PROTECTION OF THE PURCHASING PUBLIC FROM DEBATING THEIR NET WORTH AS A COMMODITY. If you are going to advertise it, then you are opening yourself up to having it critiqued...We're not out of agreement here.

OF COURSE it is often much more than just an exchange of favors for cash...but at its root and CERTAINLY what Ms V holds out as the primary topic of discourse is the AFFECTING OF THE PAY STRUCTURE moreso than any feelings of hurt pride. I don't really give a fuck about hurt pride, but I really, really give a fuck about reason and fairness. And I know you do too, so you can say you don't give a fuck but I know that's not true.


In no way did I say...or really many at all say...that they didn't think the girls in the threads were not worth anything...Did I EVER say that you said that? Did I even insinuate it? they said they saw them as overpriced if you want to be honest and put it out there. I actually voted on the high side, but I agree their asking price-vs what was offered-was high.

The fact that you post " If anything it buttressed many providers' rancor and damn near caused a universal raising of rates in solidarity" actually brought ME a bit of humor in this boring football watching night. I would actually challenge those thinking this to go ahead, rolllllll those dice..RAISEEEE those rates....see how many times the phone rings. Like it or not, its a competitive market and solidarity is not something that is likely to occur. Nope. It ain't. We can't even get together for tea, I don't see a Hooker Union forming anytime soon. And where is the Hoogar Mantra #1 "I have all the business I can handle"? I know if I personally see price inflammation because of a couple of co-ed chat topics, I will shift my funds to others in a show of WTF??? Sorry, my PERSONAL feelings (not speaking for anyone else but myself) is that the prices are capped...I simply won't pay many of the asking rates anymore. And I have companionship anytime I want with a text or two or a PM or two...hell part of the time its ME that gets the text "want some company"? {or an occasional trip to our neighbor to the north where the prices-and I will boldly state-selection is stellar.

I know most of this is posted in some manner to continue to work the "shame on you" That's where you're wrong. There is no shame on Toyz in my post. angle that EJ launched into last night, but we're all adults here...and there is little shame in the sex trade...so in my very humble opinion its a dangerous card to play...and that's not shaming.

I'm sick of hearing "you should be ashamed" You're not hearing that from me to you personally. I will pull zero punches when I say that I have been disgusted by others posting on the boards. in all of its various guises because some girls are concerned they might not make their top asking rate on occasion because many in the hobby are tapped out by the increasing prices in this market. I'm not entirely convinced the "you should be ashamed" is coming from a cadre ONLY interested in protecting their pricing, but perhaps also in response to some pretty shameful behaviors.

And to your final paragraph...as cold as this may sound...If a provider didn't already suffer from crippling fear, self loathing and self doubt, she may well find these types of examinations most propitious to that end If the hobby is too tough to hear criticism again, it's not criticism I have an issue with, its the abject mockery, scorn, and derision some people seem to find so easy I have an issue with. of your work (and you want to give up this extremely lucrative endeavor), then find another line of business (not at you specifically Ms V but in general). Cause tomorrow there will be 10 newbies willing to face the slings and arrows to cash that $5 a minute paycheck. Its a competitive industry. But no different from what many of us face at work. Its a job. Want a premium salary? Deliver a premium experience & you won't have to worry about your rate...word of mouth and reviews will carry you.

Its a high turnover business, and this probably makes it no easier I understand. But its not my...or any purchaser of services...job or responsibility to "go quietly into the night with benjamins bursting forth from your pocket". I am personally OFFENDED by some holding out that a couple of threads on a Hoogar board, or questioning prices, might be the trigger to some horrific ending. Again, please show me where I said this. EJ said this, I didn't. I that being subjected to gratuitous derision may implode someone's self esteem. Please tell me this is wrong. When the obvious intent is to NOT have any prices, pictures, services questioned by the people that pay for it. Don't insult my meager intelligence with such drivel. I didn't. That was someone else. Keep your bitches straight Toyz!

The comments on the threads...even at their worst....were no different than many personal back and forths that go on here. Here's where we diverge. I think there were much worse comments than yours. The REASON I feel some girls are offended is more about "I don't want that to happen to me". Yes, you're right. And "I don't want to have my rates affected" and also, "I don't want to be publicly humiliated" moreso about any feelings for the two who have participated.

If this puts me in a bad light with certain girls, I really.don't.give.a.fuck. Sorry I'm not coming off politically correct but right now I am pissed. You know I think the world of you, but we are very far off on this topic from agreement. No, we're not. You just got hot under the collar and took my post out of context and personally. (and might I say unnecessarily so on both accounts)

I have ALWAYS operated with a certain financial limit on my personal hobbying. Its more a moral thing than a financial one. I have ALWAYS treated any girl I see with the utmost of respect, becoming close friends with several that have gone way beyond the boundaries of this hobby. That doesn't happen if you are a callous jerk. If I find a girl I like...and I don't think she is worth the rate she asks (most I DON'T find their rates offensive)...I will politely offer a different amount...if she refuses...never any hard feelings & we go on. I'm not doing this for selfish reasons. Honestly the two girls highlighted in the posts that are causing a VERY small but vocal backlash, I have no desire to see & never would. Keep their prices high, lower them, wont matter cause I have no interest myself.

And I am not done with these postings, the only question is...Who will be next? They create interest, and lots of fellow Johns enjoy them....if a MOD thinks I am breaking any rules, I will quit...but to date I have broken no rules nor have I been made aware of any I have broken. I have had very nice off the board convos with a few providers regarding these topics. Very interesting what is said in private vs what is said in public. Certainly this is true, but one also shouldn't underestimate a good sucking up as it were to perhaps save themselves from scrutiny.

Now...off of the soapbox..and am making New Orleans Pralines so have to stir the sugar now....

And so you see you have expended precious energy disputing points on which we never disagreed with in the first place. No need to leave the prah-leens unattended. Originally Posted by Miss Valentina

Mr. Toyz:

I'm a backseat driver here, but I think you have met a worthy debater her in the singularly equisite Miss V. A step up in weight class from ELJ. Step away from the Pralines and let's see your best stuff.

I wish you the very best in this battle of the verbal titans. No retreat. No surrender. No coffee of the deck breaks!

Haha!!! You naughty instigator!!! Thank you for the flattering words! Luckily there really isn't anything to debate. My response was solely intended for Centaur's post, and had nothing whatsoever to do with Toyz with the exception being his postings were the impetus for this thread's discussion.

I usually don't post on such things, but in this case, in this thread I felt safe to do so amongst my intellectual peers for whom I have a great esteem and very much value their judgement and opinions. I know especially with Bob and Centaur in particular banter and debate has value and that even if we disagree, which is rare, we disagree as friends do. No enmity, just brain stimulation and food for thought.

Come back from Malibu with photos or it didn't happen.

True, but exchanging information about business is this site’s raison d’etre. It effectively serves, incidentally and not as its primary purpose, as a conduit for small independent business women (and a few men) to observe what the market is saying about them both collectively and individually. In reviews yes, but also in co-ed and alerts. I don’t think feedback is why this site exists, but I do believe it’s one of the main places it happens anyway, that this place is therefore implicitly part of the marketplace, and that it’s to everyone’s calculated advantage to encourage feedback’s unencumbered flow within site guidelines. Originally Posted by Centaur

I would have to disagree about the usefulness as a tool for women to "observe what the market is saying" This board I am willing to bet represents a vocal minority. One that is fast to claim knowledge and expertise, but doesn't represent the true market majority. I also don't think most of the women here (save for the few with MBAs) would be able to do much true market analysis with raw data pulled from here.

Interesting. I suppose I’d say I was hiring an athlete. On a home repair board, I’d probably say I have a friend who or I know a guy who such and such. I’m not saying you’re wrong or that the different construction connotes ownership. Just different ways of using grammar. But I maintain that many (not all) buyers and sellers treat information exchange in the sex work industry differently from in other industries for the cultural reasons I outlined above. Even so, you’ve definitely given me something to think about there. Thank you. Originally Posted by Centaur

Huh, never looked as "paying for" as ownership. I am not saying you are incorrect, but the vernacular I am intrenched with I tend to "pay for" services or experiences and "buy" things I own ie: I paid for lunch. I bought a tv. I am very active on a home theater forum. I see the same WKs and other archetypes there I honestly don't see that many differences. (save that the word fuck is used here slightly more often)

In principle, I agree. In practice, I think it would be a double-edged sword. Some providers would see it as useful feedback, but others would want to control the image the reviews present of them. It would be an interesting experiment. Originally Posted by Centaur

That's no different than the way things are now. From what I have seen on other forums direct response from the reviewee range from Thanks, call me soon! to "That isn't how I remember things going" keeping things civil is the job of the mods.

A step up in weight class from ELJ Originally Posted by readysetgo12

It depends on what kind of weight you are speaking of. (yes that was a big girl joke)

I don't know what you mean exactly; but I'll say, there is a reason most of the newspapers are usually written at a 6th grade reading level:

So everyone can understand. (please don't take this as a jab at the eloquent/more even keel, and not-so-much emotionally empathetic/passionate posters of the board). "Heeeey, this must be deep..... if communication is what it's all about"

If you think my arguments are inane, then I simply disagree; along with all the pms I got from people who pm'd me and agreed while not wanting to waste their time posting in these convoluted threads.

"epistolary duel you had with EJ last night" Originally Posted by Miss Valentina

I thought it wasn't "war". Was it a duel? WTF was it? Was it sexual tension (I think pontificating with the opposite sex is Toyz's secret perversion. I can relate)? Was it a hint to lower my rates? LOL! Besides, I thought we squashed that. Geez!

""shame on you" angle that EJ launched into last night." Originally Posted by Toyz

OMG, here we go. If that isn't butt hurt....


I tried. *Le Sigh*

newspapers... at a high school reading level*

Whoa. Perhaps you are expressing some leftover vehemence from the epistolary duel you had with EJ last night. I don't wish to engage/anger/bore you further with this tedium. But I believe if you reread my post in the light of a clear day, perhaps you will see that I have clearly not condemned you in any way. Far from it. In fact I was addressing points that Centaur made in his OP. Had you not made the initial postings that instigated a parallel discussion in this thread, there would be no reason to have mentioned you at all. You will notice I said that you often post things in humor. My point in that particular paragraph is that it will often degenerate into something entirely different indeed.

Let me be succinct:
1: You have the right to single out providers, their pricing, TCB and even their physicality as an analysis of reasonable rates for this particular market.
2: I posit that while in theory, offering a response to the providers here is not offensive in and of itself, the degeneration from positive feedback to abject ridicule is. You will note I did not make you responsible for that degeneration. Nor did I say that you were an indiscriminate ridiculer
3: Providers are not businesswomen. They mostly have zero acumen in this regard as we all know. If, as Centaur points out this critique could be construed as an opportunity for learning for providers about what their market says in response to their pricing, well it went right over their heads.And it will continue to do so for most.
4: The gratuitously base comments and vituperation made by some people against providers distracts from the legitimacy of this being a real opportunity of open market discussion. An argument I posit to Centaur's post. Not as an attack on you. No attacks at all, just a discussion.
5: The gentleman may stand by their right to critique a woman and her business, I stand by my less than flattering view of those who take it to vulgar hyperbole.


It's really that simple.


I have stayed out of this thread mostly (and quite honestly) because I found it boring beyond belief.

However, with some of Ms V's statements I feel motivated to offer just a couple of tidbits.

#1 I don't apologize for anything I have posted,If you think I was looking for some sort of contrition from you, I'm not. and surprisingly think there is more of a need of that
type of post. I am motivated now to continue... Should commenters take it in different directions, that's the nature of a co-ed open communications board. THIS is what I have a problem with. And they do take it to a whole different level, but I am not obligated to be supportive of, nor have my lady boner stoked about "that's just the way it goes" No cloven hooves here, I'm not a sheep.. As I always offer if some don't want to read what I pen, then put me on ignore and save yourselves!

What Ms V, and a few others are MISSING (actually trying to ignore as if it is insignificant) were the VOTES by the actual purchasers of the product.You really think I "missed" that??? I can assure you, I did not. Let that sink in...the actual customers were provided a very liberal range to show how they would spend their hobby dollars...You must be confusing me for someone without a brain. Believe me, I get, and always got your point. Yes, yes, I "get" they have valuable opinions and voted in accordance to those opinions, that is not in dispute.and almost to a man they voted in a median range. I would propose if I put (random example) Tori Cappellis (an Austin legend) on here with her rates, most would grudgingly say "yah, shes damn sure worth it". Again, no problem with this.

Hardly anyone agreed with the posted prices of the girls I chose to copy. Another thing to note is I merely COPIED what they put in their Ads. There was nothing made up. I let them stand on their merit & let the public ink their thoughts. Again, no problem.

I am fully aware this is some girls livelihood. BUT THAT DOES NOT IN ANY WAY PROVIDE THEM PROTECTION OF THE PURCHASING PUBLIC FROM DEBATING THEIR NET WORTH AS A COMMODITY. If you are going to advertise it, then you are opening yourself up to having it critiqued...We're not out of agreement here.

OF COURSE it is often much more than just an exchange of favors for cash...but at its root and CERTAINLY what Ms V holds out as the primary topic of discourse is the AFFECTING OF THE PAY STRUCTURE moreso than any feelings of hurt pride. I don't really give a fuck about hurt pride, but I really, really give a fuck about reason and fairness. And I know you do too, so you can say you don't give a fuck but I know that's not true.


In no way did I say...or really many at all say...that they didn't think the girls in the threads were not worth anything...Did I EVER say that you said that? Did I even insinuate it? they said they saw them as overpriced if you want to be honest and put it out there. I actually voted on the high side, but I agree their asking price-vs what was offered-was high.

The fact that you post " If anything it buttressed many providers' rancor and damn near caused a universal raising of rates in solidarity" actually brought ME a bit of humor in this boring football watching night. I would actually challenge those thinking this to go ahead, rolllllll those dice..RAISEEEE those rates....see how many times the phone rings. Like it or not, its a competitive market and solidarity is not something that is likely to occur. Nope. It ain't. We can't even get together for tea, I don't see a Hooker Union forming anytime soon. And where is the Hoogar Mantra #1 "I have all the business I can handle"? I know if I personally see price inflammation because of a couple of co-ed chat topics, I will shift my funds to others in a show of WTF??? Sorry, my PERSONAL feelings (not speaking for anyone else but myself) is that the prices are capped...I simply won't pay many of the asking rates anymore. And I have companionship anytime I want with a text or two or a PM or two...hell part of the time its ME that gets the text "want some company"? {or an occasional trip to our neighbor to the north where the prices-and I will boldly state-selection is stellar.

I know most of this is posted in some manner to continue to work the "shame on you" That's where you're wrong. There is no shame on Toyz in my post. angle that EJ launched into last night, but we're all adults here...and there is little shame in the sex trade...so in my very humble opinion its a dangerous card to play...and that's not shaming.

I'm sick of hearing "you should be ashamed" You're not hearing that from me to you personally. I will pull zero punches when I say that I have been disgusted by others posting on the boards. in all of its various guises because some girls are concerned they might not make their top asking rate on occasion because many in the hobby are tapped out by the increasing prices in this market. I'm not entirely convinced the "you should be ashamed" is coming from a cadre ONLY interested in protecting their pricing, but perhaps also in response to some pretty shameful behaviors.

And to your final paragraph...as cold as this may sound...If a provider didn't already suffer from crippling fear, self loathing and self doubt, she may well find these types of examinations most propitious to that end If the hobby is too tough to hear criticism again, it's not criticism I have an issue with, its the abject mockery, scorn, and derision some people seem to find so easy I have an issue with. of your work (and you want to give up this extremely lucrative endeavor), then find another line of business (not at you specifically Ms V but in general). Cause tomorrow there will be 10 newbies willing to face the slings and arrows to cash that $5 a minute paycheck. Its a competitive industry. But no different from what many of us face at work. Its a job. Want a premium salary? Deliver a premium experience & you won't have to worry about your rate...word of mouth and reviews will carry you.

Its a high turnover business, and this probably makes it no easier I understand. But its not my...or any purchaser of services...job or responsibility to "go quietly into the night with benjamins bursting forth from your pocket". I am personally OFFENDED by some holding out that a couple of threads on a Hoogar board, or questioning prices, might be the trigger to some horrific ending. Again, please show me where I said this. EJ said this, I didn't. I that being subjected to gratuitous derision may implode someone's self esteem. Please tell me this is wrong. When the obvious intent is to NOT have any prices, pictures, services questioned by the people that pay for it. Don't insult my meager intelligence with such drivel. I didn't. That was someone else. Keep your bitches straight Toyz!

The comments on the threads...even at their worst....were no different than many personal back and forths that go on here. Here's where we diverge. I think there were much worse comments than yours. The REASON I feel some girls are offended is more about "I don't want that to happen to me". Yes, you're right. And "I don't want to have my rates affected" and also, "I don't want to be publicly humiliated" moreso about any feelings for the two who have participated.

If this puts me in a bad light with certain girls, I really.don't.give.a.fuck. Sorry I'm not coming off politically correct but right now I am pissed. You know I think the world of you, but we are very far off on this topic from agreement. No, we're not. You just got hot under the collar and took my post out of context and personally. (and might I say unnecessarily so on both accounts)

I have ALWAYS operated with a certain financial limit on my personal hobbying. Its more a moral thing than a financial one. I have ALWAYS treated any girl I see with the utmost of respect, becoming close friends with several that have gone way beyond the boundaries of this hobby. That doesn't happen if you are a callous jerk. If I find a girl I like...and I don't think she is worth the rate she asks (most I DON'T find their rates offensive)...I will politely offer a different amount...if she refuses...never any hard feelings & we go on. I'm not doing this for selfish reasons. Honestly the two girls highlighted in the posts that are causing a VERY small but vocal backlash, I have no desire to see & never would. Keep their prices high, lower them, wont matter cause I have no interest myself.

And I am not done with these postings, the only question is...Who will be next? They create interest, and lots of fellow Johns enjoy them....if a MOD thinks I am breaking any rules, I will quit...but to date I have broken no rules nor have I been made aware of any I have broken. I have had very nice off the board convos with a few providers regarding these topics. Very interesting what is said in private vs what is said in public. Certainly this is true, but one also shouldn't underestimate a good sucking up as it were to perhaps save themselves from scrutiny.

Now...off of the soapbox..and am making New Orleans Pralines so have to stir the sugar now....

And so you see you have expended precious energy disputing points on which we never disagreed with in the first place. No need to leave the prah-leens unattended. Originally Posted by Miss Valentina

How DARE you suggest that I didn't know they are pronounced PRAH-Leens???? I simply spelled it correctly & you should have known I was pronouncing it right from osmosis...

I'll have you know I learned to make these at the NOLO School of Cooking!

The nerve of you HO's sometimes...

Pic, cause it did happen...



And ready/set/go...a bit of what happens in these. My piece is a STATEMENT piece, that's the difficult one (as with Ms V's first dalliance in this thread). The RESPOSE piece is simple. You merely pick ONLY the pieces you want to respond to and take those apart (or explain your thoughts on that one small part of the whole). That's what Ms V did that has you drooling. I've done it too. Its a LRR (Limited Respectful Response). I didn't go all out, an neither did she...

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!!!!

My response was solely intended for Centaur's post, and had nothing whatsoever to do with Toyz with the exception being his postings were the impetus for this thread's discussion. Originally Posted by Miss Valentina

In part. But it was actually the debate surrounding Toyz's recent jocosity which spurred my own humble contribution to the Titanomachy.

Pertaining to your alternate view of the matter, I must let it rattle around in my brain a while. You've given me a lot to think about.

No enmity, just brain stimulation and food for thought. Originally Posted by Miss Valentina

Absolutely. The fastest way to earn my admiration and friendship is to disagree well with me.

This board I am willing to bet represents a vocal minority. One that is fast to claim knowledge and expertise, but doesn't represent the true market majority. Originally Posted by Bob McV

Fair point. It may not be widely representative. But it and one or two others (chiefly TER) are the closest to Yelp du Con central Texas has, AFAIK anyway. Lots of people don't use Yelp or Urbanspoon, but they still do represent a significant cross-section of restaurant patrons.

Huh, never looked as "paying for" as ownership. I am not saying you are incorrect, but the vernacular I am intrenched with I tend to "pay for" services or experiences and "buy" things I own ie: I paid for lunch. Originally Posted by Bob McV

For me it probably boils down to my desire to be as specific as possible. If there's one construction that could conceivable connote ownership of a service provider and another that couldn't I'll generally opt for the latter, even if the likelihood of being misunderstood using the former is negligible.

That's no different than the way things are now. From what I have seen on other forums direct response from the reviewee range from Thanks, call me soon! to "That isn't how I remember things going" keeping things civil is the job of the mods. Originally Posted by Bob McV

To be sure, it's an experiment I'd like to see at least on a trial basis here.

Technology will step in and solve any non-capitalistic pricing. It is only a matter of time until eccie.net is replaced by sexbay.com and complete fungibility of the sex trade. I'm not making any judgements about this, but the trend is there.

I tried. *Le Sigh* Originally Posted by Ebony Jasmine Love Austin

Awwwwwww. We all knows yew tried yer best. Just take a minit ta take a load offa yer feet. 'Member, as long as Ah gots a face, yew've gottta place ta sit, sugar butt.

I seriously have a headache after reading this tread.

Blah blah blah can't we all just fuck?