The Controversy of building a mosque in close proximity to WTC?

Not debating the crusades, debating the point made by JG that Musilims are the only religion that is used to promote death.

I guess to satisfy many of you, in the future when we have an issue with a subset of people we should just kill them all because we dont know for sure who is who. You speak as if there are no American Citizens who are Musilim and practice Islam. Well it might come as a shock to you but there are. Dont they have rights, or should we just lock them all up, like the Japanese and German citizens in WW2.

The real question is why is the WTC site hallowed ground. There are many places where Americans have died but the land is not sacred. Have you noticed how everything is turned into something special, a revered place, its like the highway crosses. Whats next cant widen the road because the site was the site of a tragic event. I respect those who lost their lives and to their souls I give reverence and remembrance, but as for the land that the WTC stood, its just a piece of dirt to me, a hundred years from now, no one will care what happened there, except maybe a historian or the federal parks service, because I am sure it will be declated a national park or something.

John, I have no trouble understanding Cheaper's comments. Perhaps your "high intelligence" is actually a disability.

I had a fellow working for me who kept annoying the rest of the group. I explained to him that if I had stepped in dog poop before our meeting, he wouldn't be thinking about anything but the dog poop and would probably miss any point I was trying to make in the meeting.

After your shot at Cheaper, nothing else in your post matters. Clean your shoes, John.

As for the topic: As I've said before in other threads, the FBI's and CIA's best estimate is that there are roughly 200 members total of Al Qaeda. There are billions of Muslims.

How many other churches are within 2 New York City blocks of ground zero? Several, I suspect.

Unless this particular cleric has ties to extremists, the mosque should have the same freedoms as other churches to build wherever they want.

Ok while i feel sad about 9-11 we have to move on. If we start this whole mad at muslems or scared of them or don't trust them or them verus us thing. Then old bin & his buddies have won. They (old bin) simple want to divide us & make people mistrust each other so they can start some kind of world war 3 thing. If weren't so prestent on being the worlds cop or oil baron or king makers then this would not be happing. Alot of people we have helped or placed in power around the world have turn out to be the worst leaders out. Now they are not talking about building it on the site just near the site. We must move on.

I am very much against the building of a mosque at the site of the towers for the simple fact that to muslims, symbols are very powerful. The building of a mosque at the site of the towers is a signal to radical muslims around the world of victory. A major victory in the war with the "great satan" as they refer to the U.S. It also has the potential to be used as a staging ground for other attacks.

I am very much against the building of a mosque at the site of the towers for the simple fact that to muslims, symbols are very powerful. The building of a mosque at the site of the towers is a signal to radical muslims around the world of victory. A major victory in the war with the "great satan" as they refer to the U.S. It also has the potential to be used as a staging ground for other attacks. Originally Posted by nsafun05

Symbol, themble, wow as there sitting in their cave they can look at this mosque as a symbol they have beaten us. The fact that this debate is taking place is a symbol they have beaten us, because it shows that they have the power to change the American culture of acceptance. If you want to discuss symbols, what kind of symbol is this sending to the millions of non radical musilims, the peaceful, pro American kind, you know the kind that the radicals take and convert into their killing machines. Is it sending them a symbol of acceptance and we like you and want you here. No it sends the symbol that we dont want them here and dont like them, this is the kind of fuel that the radicals use to turn good musilims bad, "see we told you American hates you and wants to kill you and all musilims". While there sitting their caves looking at the mosque, they may think they have won, but the rest of the musilim population knows they havent, unless we turn away from them too.

Filthy Cur;

Your posts on this topic prove to me that Cats and Dogs can agree and get along.

As long as you remember that Dogs have masters and Cats have staff.

Some quotes from Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the leader of the Mosque project:

"The U.S. and the West must acknowledge the harm they have done to Muslims before terrorism can end."

"...the West had to understand the terrorists' point of view."

More importantly, here is a quote from the founder of CAIR (Omar Ahmad):

"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."

This guy is the Top Dog at the CAIR...not a non-representative fringe corner of the islamic religion.

I say let them build their mosque...but I don't have to like it. Sometimes I think we in the western world project our seperation of government and religion onto others. There is no such seperation in the islamic world...its a distinction that matters. Many muslim Americans consider themselves to be muslim first, American second...and they don't view being 'muslim' as purely a religious term. Make no mistake, this mosque is a powerplay and a political statement.

And until I see prominent islamic leaders clearly denounce terrorism, in uncertain terms, I will have a tendency to lump people together.

Michael Smerconish (an outspoken supporter of the president btw) has a saying which says it better than I ever could:

Not all muslims are terrorists, but 99% of terrorists are muslim.

i.e....it doesn't make you a racist if you recognize that the islamic leadership has declared war on the west.

BTW, I am curious to know how some of the outspoken critics of the Dubai port deal feel about this Mosque. IMHO, that was blatant racism on display, and we rebuffed the efforts of a muslim nation to gain trust of the western world.

I'm sure that G. Washington looked at all the battles he lost and could still see that a win was possible. We are fighting a guerilla war with parts of Islam. Like any other other guerilla enemy not everyone is the enemy (and no one said that they were) but the enemy is amongst them. We can't ignore enemy but we must deny them any success; symbolic, politically, and militarily. The enemy promotes itself with symbolism and gains political power from it. Mao was right when he said that capitalists will sell you the rope you use to hang them. Our politicians will give money to our enemies (Hezballah, the Palestinian authority, etc) in the hopes that they will see the light or will wait until the pol has left office. An advisor for B. Clinton reported that instead of picking up Bin Laden from Suden when he was offered, Clinton told them to send Bin Laden to Afghanistan. The CIA director that the Taliban would be unable to mount an operation until 2001. Clinton actually thought about it and said that he would be out of office by then. Some of you will never look this story up but just pass it off as partisan hyperbolea. Your loss... Look at our other programs that promise results but are so near sighted. Energy policy; we could very rationally and with little pain shift to other power sources as we develope them. This could take 30 to 50 years but our pols only see to the next election. If they are not part of the plan then they will attack it and try to stop when they get into power. They offer nothing new. Too bad we don't have a dynamic, intelligent, American president who would put together a collection of business leaders, engineers, scientists, and movers and shakers. Politicians will be shot if they go anywhere near this meeting. (or politician wannabes)

Some quotes from Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the leader of the Mosque project:

"The U.S. and the West must acknowledge the harm they have done to Muslims before terrorism can end."

"...the West had to understand the terrorists' point of view."

More importantly, here is a quote from the founder of CAIR (Omar Ahmad):

"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."

This guy is the Top Dog at the CAIR...not a non-representative fringe corner of the islamic religion.

I say let them build their mosque...but I don't have to like it. Sometimes I think we in the western world project our seperation of government and religion onto others. There is no such seperation in the islamic world...its a distinction that matters. Many muslim Americans consider themselves to be muslim first, American second...and they don't view being 'muslim' as purely a religious term. Make no mistake, this mosque is a powerplay and a political statement.

And until I see prominent islamic leaders clearly denounce terrorism, in uncertain terms, I will have a tendency to lump people together.

Michael Smerconish (an outspoken supporter of the president btw) has a saying which says it better than I ever could:

Not all muslims are terrorists, but 99% of terrorists are muslim.

i.e....it doesn't make you a racist if you recognize that the islamic leadership has declared war on the west.

BTW, I am curious to know how some of the outspoken critics of the Dubai port deal feel about this Mosque. IMHO, that was blatant racism on display, and we rebuffed the efforts of a muslim nation to gain trust of the western world. Originally Posted by lacrew_2000

Many of you have made some great valid points- i know there are some peaceful muslims, but what bothers me about Islam is that the vast majority of them say or do nothing when these "terrorist" kill innocent people. There have been numrous accounts where muslim extremist have ste off bombs at mosques, shopping centers, diners, etc and i hear very little opposition from muslims. However, the minute an american or any other non muslim can write a book or make a catoon about Islam and they are ready to call for a Jihad. I honestly can say that muslim terrorist have killed more innocent muslims In Iraq,Afghanistan, and Pakistan then have Americans yet the moment an American kills a muslim whether it's collateral damage or not- muslims march in the street by the thousands calling for a holy war against America. Why the double standard??? I will respect muslims as a whole when they stand up against the Taliban, al-Queada and these other muslim extremist groups that are killing their own people as well as thousands of others.

A number of people said the mosque would be on the twin towers' site. I understood it would be two blocks away on the site of an old Burlington Coat Factory.

If it would be permissible to build a Christian church on that site then I understand it would also be permissible to build a mosque -- thanks to the 1st and 14th Amendments to the Constitution. If this is the case, then we may not like the proposal but there may be nothing that can be done to stop it, short of rewriting the Constitution. Consolation would be that we would be demonstrating that the USA has a big heart -- unlike some Muslim countries where there is not freedom of religion.

Look we have all the weapons but you guys are acting scared of some dick head hiding. You are leting them win. Instead of saying lets control our country you are letting them know that our will is not strong. That if you fuck with us hell is to be paid. We are not focus fuck who you pray to or not to fuck with usa & we will bomb you thats it point blank. However now we are making it about who prays to who. If in the begining we just said hay thease guys boobed us then anybody that is with them we kill shit would have been better. Don't let them controll the game. Don't allow yourself to say we are fighting islam or moslems just say if you fuck with the usa we will fuck you up. Hell what if I say I don't want cathlic (misspelled) around schools because of all the kids they fucked are kids not holy ground think on that for a moment. Lets focus on want we need to do. Not get played into a 17 centry war we can't win if you name the person your fighting based on who they pray too then you wont win.

We ignored Islam's war with the west for 30 years...and all we got was progressively more spectacular attacks. If a group wants to be at war with you, its hard not to participate.

I don't give a shit who anybody prays to....and you are falling into that trap again, of thinking this is a purely religious issue to the muslim extremists.

Why are they searching for multiple sites, near the WTC? Its a political statement...and in their corner of the world, turning the other cheek is laughed upon. Make no mistake, this will be seen as a huge thumb in the eye of the western world, and will symbolize how ineffective the west is, no matter how many weapons we have.

Again, there is no way to stop it...but its ok to call it out for exactly what it is...a big FU to the west.

What if the building of the mosque ends up being seen in the Muslim world as a symbol of the freedoms offered by America?

If we are true to our principles and our constitutional freedoms it is a victory for America in the construction of the mosque and not a symbol of the enemy presence.

Religious tolerance is fundamental here and if we start to surrender this principle it sends a message of our weakness.

What if the building of the mosque ends up being seen in the Muslim world as a symbol of the freedoms offered by America?

If we are true to our principles and our constitutional freedoms it is a victory for America in the construction of the mosque and not a symbol of the enemy presence.

Religious tolerance is fundamental here and if we start to surrender this principle it sends a message of our weakness. Originally Posted by catnipdipper

I really hate stating the obvious, but in order to to win any fight, you must take advantage of whatever the enemy gives you. If your enemy weakly protects his left side, then you attack the left side for example.

Much as we boast of our freedoms of speech and religion, the radical muslims will exploit them. If the enemy is willing to let you say anything you want, then you go out and try to either win the minds of your enemy with your speeches or intimidate them. If you don't believe me, just look at what is going on in Europe right now.

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/muslim-protest-london.shtml


Of course, if the muslims are patient, they won't have to use violence to win. Read the book "America Alone" by Mark Steyn or view this video to understand why...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

Our freedoms are important to peaceful people but can and will be used against us by our enemies unless we are aware of this. Now I'm not advocating that deny these freedoms to anyone, but we must be aware of the potential for them to be used against us.

The radical Muslims may attempt to exploit the symbolism and our perceived weakness. The truth is that it is our strength and moderate reasonable people will see it as such.

We need to get over fear and to promote our strengths and freedoms.

The only thing that they truly fear is Freedom itself and the fear of it's spread.