OK...a question about politics for those smarter than me(in other words...most of you).

there are secret orgs to blame, the knights templar... the masons, the CFR,
look up the caryle group (sp?) the UN.... of course their the Sorous group that meets in Switzerland.

however the results lie with us... we allow they people to vote themselves pay raise automatically, we allow "them" to devide us.

Ugh.

Heather, it’s called Keynsian economics and it has worked wonders in the past and will continue to do so in the future. Deficit spending has worked in the past and will continue to work in the future. We all deficit spend in our daily lives (ever buy a house? Pay cash? No, didn't think so).

The difference between the Obama spending and the Bush spending is that the Obama spending is grounded in sound economic theory. Bush spent money in all the wrong ways and at the wrong time. Theory states you deficit spend when the economy is struggling, like Obama is doing now. Bush did it when the economy was strong. Its called counter cyclical spending and Republicans fucked it up, driving the housing market bonkers by adding spending to low rates. To keep asset bubbles in check you need to counter the weights, ie, low spending with low rates or high spending with high rates (a la Clinton in the mid 90’s or Reagan in the early 80’s).
Secondly, Bush spent money in the wrong ways. He slashed taxes on the upper 10%, starving the revenue stream but not getting the return in larger tax rolls (this is because taxes on the rich were well balanced after Bush I and Clinton made marginal increases). Tax rolls droop when income disparity increases, which is exactly what the Bush tax cuts did.
Here’s the real kicker: Obama hasn’t spent enough. The crash has wiped out untold wealth, driving the economy towards deflation. If you think inflation is scary wait till you see deflation. We need to spend more to increase the inflation rate. The asset bubble burst in real estate has burst all assets (except gold and precious metals, of course). The added benefit of inflation is that inflation lowers the real impact of the deficit. Think about this: if you bought a house for 100k 25 years ago the mortgage payment is, say, 500 a month. That 500 was a huge burden 25 years ago, probably half your salary. Today, it’s a session or so. That’s the magic of inflation and its why we need more of it.
In short, most Republicans wouldn’t know economic theory if it bit them on their asses. Grab some Keynes and get to reading and turn off Fox.

Great. Another effete academic. The current administration is stuffed with them. People who have never done anything. Keynes "theorized" about investing by the government, not investing in the government. American Democrat gasbags think the rest of the world can't keep up with them. Wax fruit.

(sotto voce) Hey NAN...I'm beginning to wonder whether the Creed persona is in actuality the creation of some white kid in his mama's basement having fun with his caricature of a big ol' strong-ass black mack daddy. If Creed were a real person there's no way he would parody hisownself this much. Would he? Hell naw. Originally Posted by Don T. Lukbak

DTL, I think you nailed it.

Lol.
The only nailing he's done accurately is having you bent....well, I don't want to insinuate.

Sorry to disappoint both of you, but I am who I am...and couldn't be blacker or more realer.

Don't forget, wars cost money...something your boy Bush started (two of them, in fact).
What is it, $10 billion (with a B) a month??

And we've been over in both places HOW LONG now?

Originally Posted by Rambro Creed

I prefer to think that Osama bin Laden started one and Saddam Hussien started the other one.

Ever notice that BHO's policies for both wars are the same? Bill Maher did.

Ugh.

Heather, it’s called Keynsian economics and it has worked wonders in the past and will continue to do so in the future. Deficit spending has worked in the past and will continue to work in the future. We all deficit spend in our daily lives (ever buy a house? Pay cash? No, didn't think so).

The difference between the Obama spending and the Bush spending is that the Obama spending is grounded in sound economic theory. Bush spent money in all the wrong ways and at the wrong time. Theory states you deficit spend when the economy is struggling, like Obama is doing now. Bush did it when the economy was strong. Its called counter cyclical spending and Republicans fucked it up, driving the housing market bonkers by adding spending to low rates. To keep asset bubbles in check you need to counter the weights, ie, low spending with low rates or high spending with high rates (a la Clinton in the mid 90’s or Reagan in the early 80’s).
Secondly, Bush spent money in the wrong ways. He slashed taxes on the upper 10%, starving the revenue stream but not getting the return in larger tax rolls (this is because taxes on the rich were well balanced after Bush I and Clinton made marginal increases). Tax rolls droop when income disparity increases, which is exactly what the Bush tax cuts did.
Here’s the real kicker: Obama hasn’t spent enough. The crash has wiped out untold wealth, driving the economy towards deflation. If you think inflation is scary wait till you see deflation. We need to spend more to increase the inflation rate. The asset bubble burst in real estate has burst all assets (except gold and precious metals, of course). The added benefit of inflation is that inflation lowers the real impact of the deficit. Think about this: if you bought a house for 100k 25 years ago the mortgage payment is, say, 500 a month. That 500 was a huge burden 25 years ago, probably half your salary. Today, it’s a session or so. That’s the magic of inflation and its why we need more of it.
In short, most Republicans wouldn’t know economic theory if it bit them on their asses. Grab some Keynes and get to reading and turn off Fox. Originally Posted by Robbie77007

Republicans didn't fuck it up because they don't use a Keynesian model. They don't trust centralized planning and "government investment". They view "temporary" government programs as disguises for long-term, bloated bureaucracies and, often, societal and ethical changes in the American ideals. Just because BHO and some of his EU counterparts claim to be Keynesians, doesn't make them right. Newsflash, there are other schools of economic thought out there.

I challenge you to name one time deficit spending has worked. The Great Depression? FDR's programs arguably prolonged the depression. All of the modern world was affected by the crash in 1929, not just America. So how come a decade later, Germany is an industrial power and economic king, while America was still mired in a sluggish economy and rampant unemployment? Couldn't have been all that deficit spending, right?

BHO's policies aren't working and we're too far along for him to keep blaming the issues on W and retain credibility. The stimulus was a failure, unemployment is at its worst point in decades, and we're on the precipice of the single biggest tax-hike across the board in American history, not just for the "rich". When he lets the Bush tax-cuts expire, coupled with the new healthcare taxes, we will all feel it, regardless of how much you make.

Simple business question: When its more expensive for a kid to sell lemonade, what's (s)he gonna do? The answer is simple and universal: increase the cost of the lemonade. So "eating the rich" ain't gonna work. Increase the taxes and fees to do business, and they simply pass the expense off on their customers. (read: YOU!) And worse, the wealthy are in a position to take their asses and incomes elsewhere. Example, Maryland. In 2008, in an misguided effort to balance their budget shortfalls, state and local governments implemented a "millionaire tax". They expected the dumb, evil wealthy people to just grin and bear it. The result: in 2009 there were 33% fewer millionaires in Maryland. They just picked up and moved to Pennsylvania, a more tax-friendly state.

So be careful, you class-warriors out there. It may be popular and chic to demonize business and the wealthy right now. But despite what your wrong-headed and moronic leaders may be telling you, YOU NEED THEM. They carry the majority of the tax-burden, provide you with countless services and products that you rely on, and have generally made your lives better, healthier and longer with their research and development. Throw BP at me if you want, but you're being deliberately obtuse if you refuse to acknowledge that the overwhelming majority of scientific developments, medicine, technological innovation and new ideas come from the private sector -- not a a bureaucratic government committee meeting.

Well, I wanted to hear both sides and certainly have. Thanks for the replies, now I feel at least more informed which I believe is always a good thing.

I'm still confused though! Oh well....

Nancy Pelosi has the IQ of wax fruit, but you'll never hear her admit that she's made a mistake. Originally Posted by sharkie

I think that is being very generous in your opinion of her. A retarded oyster is probably closer.

I think that is being very generous in your opinion of her. A retarded oyster is probably closer.

No, it's not possible to spend your way to prosperity when you haven't got a plan or competent planners. Obama is surrounded by incompetents. This country has pissed away trillions of dollars in the last 18 months, with nothing to show for it except a mountain of debt that will never be retired. Much of the EU has already told Obama they are not going top follow his lead. They've already figured out that it's not working. The difference between their leaders and ours is that Obama and his clown posse are hopelessly burdened by ego and narcissism. California makes a perfect example: a bankrupt state where about 30% of the residents pay almost 100% of the taxes, and, no, I'm not talking about sales tax. Still, they can't wait to create massive social programs that really only help the least productive people that live there. Nancy Pelosi has the IQ of wax fruit, but you'll never hear her admit that she's made a mistake. Originally Posted by sharkie

+1

We have a limited treasure, a deep economic pie filled with the fruit of our labors and taxes and savings. Liberals would invite the world to make their way here and be welcomed to claim a piece of the pie as their own (Ever heard of "amnesty"?). With pie in the sky altruistic feel good ethics this sounds generous. But it is generosity at someone's expense. Here are the patent questions.

• WHAT IS THE PRICE?
• WHAT IS THE TOTAL COST?
• WHEN WILL THE 'Welcome Mat' BE TAKEN UP and the door closed?
• SINCE WE CANNOT TAKE IN THE WHOLE WORLD, HOW MANY CAN WE TAKE IN?
• WHO GETS IN? WHO IS EXCLUDED?
• BY WHAT MEANS ARE THE CHOSEN FEW TO BE SELECTED AND ADMITTED?

HERE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION OF THE DAY!

BY WHAT MEANS WILL WE EXCLUDE ALL OTHERS AND KEEP THE UN-SELECTED OUT?

THIS IS BORDER SECURITY.

IF WE CANNOT (OR WILL NOT) EXCLUDE AND KEEP OUT THE IMPOVERISHED, DESPERATE IMMIGRANTS POURING ACROSS THE POROUS BORDERS OF TEXAS, NEW MEXICO, AZ, CALIFORNIA;
AND IN THROUGH THE BEACHES AND SWAMPS OF FLORIDA, LOUISIANA, TEXAS, MISSISSIPPI, ALABAMA (HOW MAY STATES HAVE COASTLINES?), . . .

THEN WHY WOULD WE FEEL SAFE AND SECURE AGAINST THE THREAT OF TERRORISTS BRINGING WMD INTO OUR HOMELAND THROUGH THOSE SAME COVERT AVENUES (TUNNELS, TRAILS THROUGH THE DESERT, ETC)?

Back to the economic question:
The size of the pie has not increased in real terms with the arrival of illegal immigrants. Consider by letting them claim some of the pie, what is happening to OUR pie? It is being reduced in real terms for the rest of us. There is no free lunch, no free doctor's visit or health care, no free schools or infrastructure or civilian domestic and city services.
SOMEONE WILL PAY. GUESS WHO?
Do you like your current rate of total taxes? Are you wishing to pay MORE? Are you willing for inflation to re-emerge as in 1978-79 ect?
Payment will be through increased taxes or through inflation, or both!
You cannot spend your way out of this economic downturn.

For example:
The govt just announced a loan guarantee for $2B from 'stimulus funds' to two companies that are designing and constructing 'green' energy plants (Solar energy plants in this case). The two companies will create about 2000 jobs total, for $2B. How much will taxpayers pay of this $2B? Perhaps none if both companies are profitable and repay the loans. Perhaps the whole $2B if neither company succeeds.
Do you realize that about 80% of all new start companies fail in the first two years? Hopefully at least one of the two companies will succeed.

Let's be generous and say that 1300 of the 2000 'new' jobs last more than two years (that one company survives the IPO) at a cost of $1B (lost by the one company that failed, the loan which the US taxpayers will have to pay in return for nothing).

13,000,000 jobs needed / 1300 jobs provided per $1B =
cost to us the US Taxpayers for job creation = $10,000,000,000,000!

TEN TRILLION DOLLARS of tax revenue, money which will have to be borrowed or printed. This is in addition to the existing Federal budget for the Pentagon, and all the other projects, which is leading us into a multi-trillion dollar deficit this year. To pay for the anticipated $1B lost, net available tax revenues will have to grow through
increased income tax or
decreased spending, or
borrowing at commercial rates (think Treasury Bills which no one is buying including China and Saudi Arabia who own more than anyone else).

The other option is to print more money, like Hitler did as WW2 was drawing to a close -- and you had to have a barrel full of deutschmarks to buy a loaf of bread, if you could find it. The economy collapsed.
There were no goods to purchase, and no money available to the common man or small business to pay employees
BECAUSE GOVT WAS USING IT ALL TO PAY FOR ITS STIMULUS (or WAR) EXPENSES.

13,000,000 jobs are needed today to restore the jobforce and income to American households to the levels of 2007-2008 (pre-crash).

By the way, this job creation program will consume more of the pie than is available. So there is no pie to offer to the new legal immigrants, much less the illegals who are invading (illegally enter with intent to stay and take over some portion of our estate).

The US GOVERNMENT is not controlling the borders.
The US GOVERNMENT is telling the states to not impose controls on the borders.
The US GOVERNMENT has no working plan to establish controls, but is being pressured by special interest groups (especially Hispanics) to legalize all who have made it here. The POTUS made a campaign pledge to do that in his first year in office. Thank God it has not happened yet.
God forbid it should ever happen.

The costs of schooling, health care through indigent services, etc to the state is onerous, causing some like California to lay off teachers.

The US GOVT legislates the programs for the illegals, but does not provide funding. It is our fault for reelecting the congressmen who pass those bills which we cannot afford.

You cannot spend your way to prosperity.
Prosperity is found along the road of hard work, sacrifice, investment, discipline and self-control.
Our society has a mind-set of entitlement, limitless entitlements whereby some non-contributors receive at the expense of others who provide all the fruit for the pie.

The pie is getting thinner.
There is less for everyone, although everyone is getting a piece.
And the more who partake, the less each one has.
Besides that, the govt will expect us who have to give back from what we have already paid taxes on, like the estate tax = the inheritance tax = 'the death tax.'

America is in big trouble until we get the socialists out of Washington.

I am so depressed now at the thought of all this, that I need an attitude adjustment.

I gotta call my ATF and get laid.

Randy Lee

I have no idea Heather. I wish I was as smart as some of these folks. Or, are they making ideological choices here rather than offering truly informed content? Hmmmm, let me think.

I am always just a bit astonished at the Republicans who continue to advocate nothing at all or, the exact same policies that got us into our current situation.....Bush cut taxes....Bush rolled back government regulation of finance and the market (Clinton too) and look where we are. It really doesn't seem like a largely unregulated free market worked too well, does it? We're in the middle of an economic catastrophe because of something called a derivative that no one can explain but that made a shit-load of money for a very few people and a grossly unrealistic real estate bubble.

As for TARP, etc. I just don't know. And neither does anybody else. The real wild card is that nobody knows what would have happened if the government hadn't acted in the way they did. There are many reputable mainstream economists who believe the economy would have lapsed into a full-blown depression without the bailouts. But...that's crystal-ball gazing.

As for those who denounce Obama's competence....that's just echo-chamber talking points from Limbaugh and Hannity. It makes not one bit of difference what he does to some of these folks. It's ideology, not reality. He inherited the worst economic situation for a president since FDR. He's been in office 18 months. It's not a fixable situation in that amount of time.

We'll see.

I just saw a film "Generation Zero" and it was eye opening and jaw dropping!!!!!!!!!!!
I hope others that have seen this will comment on it.
I don't trust ANYTHING either the right or left puts out there(even though, as a former socialist/"progressive" and now conservative) this was truly enlightening.
Or maybe I'm being "susceptible".
I'm open to any and all ideas and thoughts. H

I'm a retired military man. I have served under several presidents, Reagan, Daddy Bush, Clinton, Jr. Bush, and yes Obama. I just retired last year after 23 years of service. I have deployed to several '"skirmishes or war", have worked with Secret Service while in the military providing security detail for several Presidents and I can tell you the reason why I decided to retire (wanted to make it a total of 30 years in the service) but just couldn't serve under this current President. This current administration is the most corrupt I have ever seen or known to ever occupy the "People's House." I have never seen an American President bow down to foreign leaders, never, in my entire life. Not only has this President almost doubled our deficit, but he doesn't listen to the people of this country, he would rather side with the enemies rather than our allies, is linked to known terrorist or America hater as his "acquaintances", he may even be a usurper of a President. This guy has so much drama and dirt on him it's not even funny. I love this country and I have been to other countries, there is nothing like USA, that's why people from other countries would love to come here legally and illegally. I need a beer, I think my blood pressure just went up. Anyway, just sayin' and my .02 cents in. Peace and goodnight!

I have no idea Heather. I wish I was as smart as some of these folks. Or, are they making ideological choices here rather than offering truly informed content? Hmmmm, let me think.

I am always just a bit astonished at the Republicans who continue to advocate nothing at all or, the exact same policies that got us into our current situation.....Bush cut taxes....Bush rolled back government regulation of finance and the market (Clinton too) and look where we are. It really doesn't seem like a largely unregulated free market worked too well, does it? We're in the middle of an economic catastrophe because of something called a derivative that no one can explain but that made a shit-load of money for a very few people and a grossly unrealistic real estate bubble.

As for TARP, etc. I just don't know. And neither does anybody else. The real wild card is that nobody knows what would have happened if the government hadn't acted in the way they did. There are many reputable mainstream economists who believe the economy would have lapsed into a full-blown depression without the bailouts. But...that's crystal-ball gazing.

As for those who denounce Obama's competence....that's just echo-chamber talking points from Limbaugh and Hannity. It makes not one bit of difference what he does to some of these folks. It's ideology, not reality. He inherited the worst economic situation for a president since FDR. He's been in office 18 months. It's not a fixable situation in that amount of time.

We'll see. Originally Posted by timpage

That's the most sensible post I have seen on this or any other political thread. Well done, sir.