... When Trump was on - He knew how to handle Putin.
#### Salty Originally Posted by Salty Again
Yes, he did...on his knees and mouth open!
You wrecked your own argument. You called Putin a "murdering [goul]" and he wants no NATO for Ukraine. NATO is for self defense and that is the way it has always been used.
Let's see, we invaded Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya to some extent all under the umbrella of our "national interest" and we are surprised that Putin has a "national interest" in not seeing their 'enemy" on their border? You want to seriously make the argument that invading Iraq with our NATO allies, was in our national interest?
The March 2003 campaign against Iraq was conducted by a coalition of forces from different countries, some of which were NATO member countries and some were not.
Your comparison so China/Mexico/Canada...we're not "murdering ghouls" and XI is so it is not an apt comparison.
So you say. It is an exact comparison in the opinion of many
I wish that sanctions had been put in place sooner but I believe is too late to back off Putin.
So not letting Ukraine join NATO is backing off Putin if he says his only interest in Eastern Ukraine is not seeing NATO forces train there? Sounds like you believe if we had put those severe sanctions on Putin in 2014, things might have been different. Why wouldn't that be the same today?
He sees an opportunity. As much as I hate the idea, putting American (and other countries) troops in the line of fire might dissuade Putin from moving forward without giving it some more thought. If Putin moves, I'm pretty sure that China will move. There has even been talk of Pakistan moving on India and, coincidentally, one of India's top generals was just killed.
If we folded our hand and told Putin and China to take what they want, I'm sure that they will both take the win.
The hard part is to get Putin to believe that we are serious about going to war to protect another country whether we are or not. With Milley running around looking for white supremacy instead of looking overseas, it doesn't look good.
If they both take what they want, history will show that this is truly the time that the United States went into decline. Originally Posted by the_real_Barleycorn
According to Globalfirepower.com, Russia’s 12,000-strong fleet of tanks is twice that of the U.S. 6,000 tanks, raising an interesting question about the prospects of a lengthy ground war.
As if the insurrection wasn't enough to say that was "truly the time the United States went into decline."impish rouge-smith!
I think Milley is tending his own garden there. Sir.
Voltaire and Candide Background
https://www.sparknotes.com/lit/candide/context/
And it's only Wednesday.
Originally Posted by eccieuser9500
Then we are ok with authoritarians the world over expanding their influence.
China into Taiwan and further expansion into the Pacific.
No, I'm not. Maybe you missed the part I wrote about really crippling sanctions not nibbling around the edges, I'm talking about kicking them out of the West's banking system, "no credit for you". I'm saying that we must exhaust ALL economic solutions before we decide to go to war, a military war that we can not win. And what if we did WIN a war with Russia or should I say it looked like we were going to defeat Russia on the battle field and Russia decides if they are going to be defeated and "enslaved" ( I'm sure that's what Putin would tell his people ) what might Russia do? Go out with a bang? There simply is no winning a military conflict with Russia or China. The sooner we and our allies come to terms with that idea, the better off we'll be.
Ok, engaging Russian and China may not be in our immediate best interest.
Engaging in a military conflict with either will never be in our best interest. It's hard to believe that anybody could believe that. Hell, we couldn't beat a rag tag group of men living in the 14th century and we are going to defeat Russia and China? Please.
But it will be not soon after. If these countries can expand without repercussions they will expand again because it’s in their interest to do so.
In the words of Ronald Reagan "there he goes again". Nobody is saying there shouldn't be any repercussions, a price to pay, but military conflict is not the answer.
I’ve not read up on Russo-Ukrainian geopolitics in some time but if I recall, part of the reason Ukraine I’d vulnerable to Russia is that we had them demilitarize and give up their nuclear arsenal. Were that not the case, Ukraine would be in a much better position to defend themselves. Or at least prove a deterrent to Russia.
US blood and treasure are our most valuable resource.
If that were true, we wouldn't have stayed in Afghanistan for 20 years and would never have gone into Iraq. For some politicians, US blood and treasure comes in second to whatever drove us to lose so much blood and treasure in the last couple of decades.
Unfortunately, allowing China to take more of Asia and Russia to take more of Eastern Europe would likely be near impossible for us fix later. Originally Posted by NoirMan
I must have missed that insurrection that you spoke of but think about this; what if the world or one strong power had stood up to Hitler when he went after Czechoslovakia. France had a bigger army than Hitler did but it's true, they didn't want to fight, so what happened? They had to fight for their lives and lost to Hitler two years later. Ask them if it was worth it. Maybe you don't want to fight right now but you have to make the other guy think that you are willing and able to do so. I'm sure that Russia doesn't want to fight since they only put 180,000 on the border. If they were willing to go balls to the walls, then they would have put 500,000 on the border. Like in poker, go all in and run everyone off the table.
Taiwan is more strategically important to the world than Ukraine is with their electronic chip industry. Losing Taiwan to the Chinese would, in may ways, cripple our auto industry, technological development, and our military. We need to give Taiwan the ability to strike back at mainland China hard as a means of self defense. Originally Posted by the_real_Barleycorn