Recent push for references

I was just about to post this in another forum. Being fairly new to stateside hobbying I'm still trying to research via the boards to figure out the culture of hobbying locally. Like you I want to limit my personal information that's why I'm not a P411 member even though they say they "destroy" the information once verified. I don't trust that. Is there a magic number of references to see the more reviewed providers? I've heard of people creating fake handles and posting fake reviews so I'm sure providers want to ensure their safety beyond a shadow of doubt.

What I wasn't prepared for was the drama that can come along with this "lifestyle". Reading the threads in some forums is like a high school locker room. Seems to me there is a bit of backlash from providers and their fanboys if there is a negative review of an ATF. That is a topic discussed ad nauseum so I won't go there but I see it already. Interested to see the feedback. Originally Posted by Nurseguy76

I don't understand it either as a adult it should be very simple i think the guy that started this hit on it and did not realize it i think it's a cross between this generation of girls and desperation of the guys that tolerate any thing if a provider is going to be shitty to me i am not going to see her they seem to go in wanting to make the impression of aww he really likes me or he can't get enough of me Me i would rather them say we had some fun and he is a cool mf

With two solid references, you need not give us any traceable real life info. Originally Posted by GinaXXX

There you go! Spoken directly from the source. Feel welcome to sign up without giving any of the info you are so paranoid about giving. Log on only at a starbucks and you will be fine.

by "outing" I mean that the only time I'd be giving a reference is when I'm seeing someone I've never met. I have no idea if that person is legit... they could be LE, a psycho killer, or a zombie for all I know. If I give their information out as a reference (especially if they end up being LE), I've just handed over contact info of someone I already trust. The person receiving that info could easily call and say something like "I was referred to you by FBU on eccie"... I don't think I need to explain that line of logic further. Originally Posted by fatbaldugly

If you are researching the providers before you contact them this shouldn't be a problem.

As for being paranoid, yes. I'm paranoid. Of course I am. but, no more paranoid than the person (rightfully) asking for a reference. with things like p411, it's not about track record, it's about potential for compromise. potential for disaster... potential for all of their info being released to someone we don't want it being released to. Perhaps even to the public. It hasn't happened yet, so of course they're still in business. but the potential is there and I know *far* too much about the compromise of sensitive data to risk my data being part of it. If they *can* guarantee anonymity, then they *cannot* guarantee a valuable identification/verification service. The two simply cannot coexist. They must choose one or the other, and no matter which one they choose... I don't want to be a part of it. Just because there hasn't been a problem in the past doesn't mean there won't be a problem in the future. Do you really thing p411 has better security than Yahoo, Sony, or any of the major national banks who have been compromised? I assure you, they do not. Originally Posted by fatbaldugly

Please refer back to the first quote from Gina at p411

I'm not looking for "newbie friendly". I've been hobbying for about 15 years, I haven't been a newbie for a very, very long time. I'm simply trying to start a discussion about what I see as a problem with the way things have started to work. Originally Posted by fatbaldugly

Well, then you're at a loss because the ONLY ladies who will see you without references are newbie friendly ones. For Heaven's sake FBU, you can't walk into a grocery store and bitch about the checkout system without offering ANY viable alternative. THEN expect employees to come rushing out and side with you on what a slave they are to barcodes??? AND THEN expect them to come up with their own alternative to barcodes and scanning without any input from you - just so we can all make your shopping easier.

You're reasoning and paranoia is so completely OFF the mark and self-serving, especially since you haven't come up with an alternative.

How would you expect ladies to stay out of harms way if not for references??

I'm still calling bs on the reason you posted this. I think you just want to sell an illusion to your lady friends that they are your ONLY lady friend.

Maybe I have been doing this all wrong so take it with a grain of salt.
When I used eccie, I would send through PM my screening info which included the eccie handle and contact info of the provider listed on the site. I assumed the screening contact info was or had to be completed using this system/site. So the person I wanted to see and the person getting the info were both members here so nothing "outed" since membership here can be setup with non real world info.

Under the same token of logic, the same can be done through 411. I too am very nervous about what data lingers when a system is compromised. (Part of my day to day revolves around it.)
I am not a 411 cheerleader by any means and it took me months of research before I hopped on board.
All through the membership you are prompted with multiple suggestions that strongly encourage separating hobby from real life; hobby email, user details etc etc.
The only link between you and the site is the one time billing and that can be severed with the options Gina described above.
You personally have done reviews for some 411 provider members, if you still have a connection with them; 2 can vouch for you and you can be setup on the site using the same information you used to sign up here...you would also get the 6 months at no cost (I did not get this when I joined so a little jealous). I am sorry if I am not understanding topic but it seems like you asked a question about how you could avoid the reference hoop jumping system but not wanting to use the current standard of 411 but may not fully understand how that system works...(not really different than this site).

Just my two cents; I often also in my day to day have to deal with people wanting to re-invent the wheel but not truly understanding the in's and out's.

--Maybe you could sponsor and maintain a system (member group) here where a secret handshake gets you in the door, then a daily secret password queues the transaction.

You seem to be a little "overly cautious" fatbaldugly. Your reasons for privacy and security are exactly why I am a P411 member. Over the years they have been scrutinized, hacked, shut down and...nary a peep from LE asking why I belong there.

Just how did you know...FOR SURE...that any woman you first saw wasn't LE? Bits and bytes on a computer from a she or he you've never personally met?

"In many years in this hobby I've never had to provide references, it's just a "feel each other out first" scenario."

While I respect everyones Level of being comfortable in this hobby, the above statement seems to me to be more irresponsible than providing references in the first place

Spikebaby

I've tried, and I can't figure out how that statement is irresponsible. It's just an accurate description of history. I'm not saying that was a better way, but I don't think the current one is, either.

Call my "overly cautious" if you want, but I counter that there's no such thing.

There you go! Spoken directly from the source. Feel welcome to sign up without giving any of the info you are so paranoid about giving. Log on only at a starbucks and you will be fine. Originally Posted by thathottnurse

LOL - logging in at starbucks is a terrible, terrible idea. Please don't give people advice on security and anonymity if you use starbucks wifi as a solution. That's one of the easiest ways to ensure all of your network traffic is monitored by anyone who cares to look. Hell, for $30 you can buy a nice tiny little "spy box" online, drop it in the bathroom at starbucks where it likely won't be noticed for weeks, and have it happily collect information about everyone who uses their wifi while you're gone. Come back every few days to retrieve that info... or for a few dollars more get one that automatically sends it to the location of your choice on a regular basis. this is common practice and it doesn't take a security genius or super hacker to spend $30 and click a few buttons. And that's just one of a million ways people are *constantly* trying to gather information they're not supposed to have.

Please refer back to the first quote from Gina at p411

please refer back to my post on why Gina's post is irrelevant. If there is no personal information stored anywhere, then what is actually being verified? If there is personal information stored then it can be stolen and used against us.

Well, then you're at a loss because the ONLY ladies who will see you without references are newbie friendly ones. For Heaven's sake FBU, you can't walk into a grocery store and bitch about the checkout system without offering ANY viable alternative. THEN expect employees to come rushing out and side with you on what a slave they are to barcodes??? AND THEN expect them to come up with their own alternative to barcodes and scanning without any input from you - just so we can all make your shopping easier.

You're reasoning and paranoia is so completely OFF the mark and self-serving, especially since you haven't come up with an alternative.

How would you expect ladies to stay out of harms way if not for references??

I'm still calling bs on the reason you posted this. I think you just want to sell an illusion to your lady friends that they are your ONLY lady friend.

you can call whatever you want, but I have zero interest in selling any illusion of the sort. Why would I want a provider to think that? what purpose could that possibly serve? I don't know what type of clients you're used to but that makes no sense to me. I don't really care if you believe me or not, all I can do is be honest, and I have been.

I don't know why you're so combative about this, but you obviously do not understand how a very many things work. Discussions are started all the time by identifying a problem without offering a solution. If I had an answer I'd give it, but just because I don't have that answer doesn't mean that there isn't a problem.

Why is it only the ladies who need to stay out of harm's way? Why is your paranoia so "on" the mark while mine is so off? How is it you know so much more than I do about security?

LOL - logging in at starbucks is a terrible, terrible idea. Please don't give people advice on security and anonymity if you use starbucks wifi as a solution. That's one of the easiest ways to ensure all of your network traffic is monitored by anyone who cares to look. Hell, for $30 you can buy a nice tiny little "spy box" online, drop it in the bathroom at starbucks where it likely won't be noticed for weeks, and have it happily collect information about everyone who uses their wifi while you're gone. Come back every few days to retrieve that info... or for a few dollars more get one that automatically sends it to the location of your choice on a regular basis. this is common practice and it doesn't take a security genius or super hacker to spend $30 and click a few buttons. And that's just one of a million ways people are *constantly* trying to gather information they're not supposed to have. Originally Posted by fatbaldugly

Then use a pay and go phone for pete's sake...jesus...I'm not a networking guru like you apparently are but I know I've listened to plenty of seasoned hobbyists who are techie gurus and have never been caught because they use a trash-laptop (at a public wifi location) or a pay and throw phone ONLY for hobby activities to ensure their anonymity.

Maybe you don't need to be hobbying in the states if you are so paranoid. ijs

please refer back to my post on why Gina's post is irrelevant. If there is no personal information stored anywhere, then what is actually being verified? If there is personal information stored then it can be stolen and used against us. Originally Posted by fatbaldugly

you can call whatever you want, but I have zero interest in selling any illusion of the sort. Why would I want a provider to think that? what purpose could that possibly serve? I don't know what type of clients you're used to but that makes no sense to me. I don't really care if you believe me or not, all I can do is be honest, and I have been.

I don't know why you're so combative about this, but you obviously do not understand how a very many things work. Discussions are started all the time by identifying a problem without offering a solution. If I had an answer I'd give it, but just because I don't have that answer doesn't mean that there isn't a problem.

Why is it only the ladies who need to stay out of harm's way? Why is your paranoia so "on" the mark while mine is so off? How is it you know so much more than I do about security? Originally Posted by fatbaldugly

No one - and I mean NO ONE - out of the 410 views has even remotely backed up your paranoia on providing references. Quite the opposite actually. I would say sir that YOU are the one who doesn't get it. I may not get a great many things but I can promise you this ain't one of them.

Just to highlight your question so I can give you a very clear and direct answer, you asked, "Why would I want a provider to think that? what purpose could that possibly serve?" Well, because of four little letters, FBU. And Since you are such a seasoned fellow, I don't imagine you need me to explain that little gem of wisdom to you.

Let's take a quick survey:

TO THE LADIES, how many of you have heard, "YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE I SEE. I SWEAR. DO I REALLY HAVE TO WEAR IT???"

From what it sounds like, you're either looking to hide something or you're looking to get something. Either way it's obvious you think the provider should assume all the risk in seeing you without references so you don't have to do your leg work and keep things transparent like it should be.

Happy Hunting.

I apologize I wasn't very clear. I didn't mean the statement itself was irrespsonsible. I was leaning towards the idea that you, or anyone, would meet someone just based on a "feeling it out" type of situation. THAT is what I was implying was irresponsible.

Spikebaby

lol at "four little letters". just... lol. assuming you mean "love", that's one of the funniest things I've heard all day. I believe there are people out there like that, but damn... reality check, people. btw, if I was really trying to do what you're so convinced I am... why would I post a thread about trying to find a better way to meet new people? Right here, where nearly every single one of my "friends" on the provider side of the hobby has access to read it any time they want?

I'm not looking to "hide" anything or "get" anything. I'm just looking for a better way to make sure *all* parties are safe and protected. Not only the providers but the clients as well.

you can call whatever you want, but I have zero interest in selling any illusion of the sort. Why would I want a provider to think that? what purpose could that possibly serve? Originally Posted by fatbaldugly

For someone with 3 years of history here you sure are naive with your statement there.

That right there is likely why people question the motive behind the posed question.

with 3 years of history here, I've only seen a handful of people who have angled for uncovered service, and never one who professed love for a provider (other than in jest). The overwhelming majority that I've seen have been safe and fun... why would I assume that those few outliers are enough of a presence to warrant consideration? so... people think I'm one of those few morons because I want to find a better way to secure the transaction? that's ridiculous.

oh, and many years of presence on the old site, too... same handle and everything.

wrong letters.

Look, just to be fair, I'll GIVE you a viable alternative: Ask your trusted lady friends to recommend you to a few provider whose reputation they trust and ask the friend providers to reach out to the new providers on your behalf. Offer a gratuity to the friend provider for her efforts in helping you dodge traditional screening methods and p411. It's a loose method of screening and referencing but it can and is done by some.

However, the issue remains, your post sent off red flags and just rubs me the wrong way....very weird allegations, context, admonitions, assumptions, choice of audience, etc.

Just for arguments sake, What makes you think you aren't being recorded by LE when you visit AMPs or about to get pimp-raided by backpage pros?

Honestly, your deductive reasoning is the most bass-akwards shit I've seen since I saw my first Sunshyne Monroe video**.


**not that there's anything wrong whatsoever with Sunshyne Monroe- she is a VERY attractive person and I'm willing to bet a tremendous provider!!

LOL *my* reasoning is deductive and backwards? WTF... you're hilarious. do you know what "deductive" means? You're the one who is accusing me of trying to hide or get something based on an unfounded assumption that I have an ulterior motive... that is the very definition of deductive reasoning. Plus, it's the complete opposite of the truth, and therefore the very definition of backwards... When did I deduce *anything* to support my logic? What part was backwards?

seriously lady, if you're going to insult someone at least use the right words and try not to be this hypocritical about it. My logic is neither deductive nor backwards. I don't know where you get that from, but it simply isn't there. Perhaps you're reading something into my posts that I did not write... hell, we all *know* you are doing that based on your ridiculous accusations. But, it may be worse than I realized.

I don't know what you mean by weird allegations, assumptions, and context... just because you don't know about something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I have made no allegations. You have, but I haven't. The only thing that could be regarded as an admonition is just simply a statement of fact. Perhaps that reality is weird to you, but it's true nonetheless. The context and choice of audience are completely appropriate - this particular section of this particular board are exactly the audience and the context that are appropriate for a discussion like this.

As for AMPs, I know how to cover myself well enough. I'm intimately familiar with common surveillance techniques and how they can be legally applied... armed with the right knowledge it is possible to avoid the majority of that risk. Of course, if the AMP has its own cameras and those recordings are seized... that's a different story. That's a calculated risk that I will sometimes take, but not often. As for pimp-raiding, I'm not worried. I'm careful, and I'm almost certainly bigger and stronger than 95% of pimps out there. For the other 5%, I'm also armed. It hasn't come to that yet, but I also almost never use BP.

So, if you're done detracting from the point of this thread... your suggestion is actually viable. I've actually done that a few times, but many times such a request has also been responded to with a bit more hesitance than I would like. Whether their motivation for that is territoriality or something else, it's not always going to work.