Thank You Tiny and the ECCIE Fiscal Hawks

Where did you pull that 5 trillion number Blackman? Out of Pinocchio's ass? The CBO and JCT estimates range from $2.3 to $3.3 trillion. And those are static estimates -- see Farmstud's post. Originally Posted by Tiny

The 5 trillion number is a what if. Right now some of the tax breaks Trump promised (and included in the bill) will expire in just a few years. If those are extended to the full 10 year period it increases the price of the bill to 5 trillion +.

But as I said before that’s not really the issue. If we want to get off the debt train we’ll need to start raising taxes when we are not in a recession. It’s straight up criminal to extend these tax breaks much less increase them with new giveaways.

Cutting expenses are an option on the table except for the fact that most of our federal expenses go towards serving the elderly and the military. Cutting NPR might give a conservative little toad like the heritage foundation a woody but it is a complete distraction from the actual problem.

Another little slugfest between 2 members.


Why not take it offline ? Originally Posted by VitaMan

I respect Blackman and he’s one of the people on the board who I’d most like to have lunch with someday. I usually don’t argue with him over legal issues unless it’s something philosophical like the death penalty, because I know I’ll get my ass kicked. He isn’t similarly cautious discussing economic issues. As to Pinocchio’s ass, he’s dished that out that and worse to me and I don’t usually take offense. Rather it’s funny. But by all means please continue whipping the board into shape, keeping us on topic, posting in the right forum, and considering whether we’ve posted enough reviews to participate in the Political threads.

One of the reasons that these countries are so successful is that they are all involved in the financial system that helps people shelter their wealth.

https://theconversation.com/these-fi...x-havens-79555

The Netherlands, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, Singapore and Ireland are among the rich countries that funnel major corporate money into secret offshore tax shelters, according to a new study. Originally Posted by txdot-guy

The only one of the five places I mentioned that’s on the list in the link is Hong Kong. As to your list (Netherlands, Switzerland, etc.), you should add Delaware, Wyoming and Nevada, although they're rich states instead of rich countries.

The 5 trillion number is a what if. Right now some of the tax breaks Trump promised (and included in the bill) will expire in just a few years. If those are extended to the full 10 year period it increases the price of the bill to 5 trillion +. Originally Posted by txdot-guy

What you're saying makes sense although I haven't looked at the numbers. So does the Republican argument that we should measure the change against the status quo, before provisions of the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act expire. Certainly Democrats would have kept some of the cuts, like the lower personal rates on all but top earners. Anyway, you do that and the loss of revenues during a 10 year period is $1.4 trillion according to Senate Republicans.

But as I said before that’s not really the issue. If we want to get off the debt train we’ll need to start raising taxes when we are not in a recession. It’s straight up criminal to extend these tax breaks much less increase them with new giveaways. Originally Posted by txdot-guy

Fair enough. I strongly prefer cutting expenditures to raising taxes. Either way the USA must lower the deficits.

Cutting expenses are an option on the table except for the fact that most of our federal expenses go towards serving the elderly and the military. Cutting NPR might give a conservative little toad like the heritage foundation a woody but it is a complete distraction from the actual problem. Originally Posted by txdot-guy

The USA spends more on the military than the next highest nine countries combined. Military expenditures can and should be cut. An aside, before long, maybe in a few years, the interest expense on the national debt will exceed military spending.

As to the elderly, the best long term solution would be to switch over with time to a system like Australia’s superannuation scheme or Singapore’s Central Provident Fund, where people fund their own retirement and have their own retirement accounts. Also our health care system is totally screwed. Other countries like Singapore, Japan, Hong Kong and some European countries have systems that provide much better outcomes and cost much less. Copy them. Failing all that social security and Medicare contributions from employees and employers must increase or benefits must fall.

Unless the CBO and the House and Senate are just wrong, the deficit and debt will skyrocket under the Trump Big Bufoon Bill. This is what you fiscal hawks asked for and supported in the election by supporting Trump. More deficits and more debt burden and a 5,000,000,000,000 debt ceiling increase. That should tell us all we need to know, they expect the debt to raise by up to 5,000,000,000,000.

Well, I’ll again say thank you. Originally Posted by 1blackman1

I hope you can understand that the reason for this disaster of a bill is because of the 118th Congress being incapable of doing it, under the leadership of Mike Johnson, Schmuck Schumer and the president, Traitor Joe (or some autopen handler).

They had ONE FUCKING JOB, and that is to pass a budget. But instead these geniuses played politics and were only able to kick that can down the road. The reason they have ONE JOB is their own doing. They used to pass bills during their session, which is approximately 140 days a year. But they can't hide behind things or accuse opponents of being against "X" (X=Children, blacks, asian albino alaskans...) if they have many bills so they wait until the final minutes of the fiscal year and pass a gigantic, many thousand page "bill", sometimes with blank pages that can be filled in later. they "buy" votes to ensure passage, with this OBBB's final buyouts going to Alaska.

They whole fucking system is rigged and there aren't two parties. There is the Uniparty, some socialists, a few commies, and a few conservatives which always get the label "far right" or "extreme" but if you compare them to a 1990s Democrat you wouldn't know the difference.

So, you don't like this bill? Blame Schumer, Johnson and Traitor Joe. Their inaction in their 140 days of hard work resulted in this.

140 days...

Thats is 225 days off per year

Thats 28 weeks of work 24 weeks of vacation

They make $174,000 a year

Thats more like $453,642 with all the time off

But lets dig deeper...

Nancy Pelosi does better with her stock picks than the expert traders on wall street

So does Dan Crenshaw

So does MTG

So do many of the other Uniparty rats.

And they complain that they don't make enough money and try to sneak raises into these "Omnibus bills" hoping nobody will notice.

Fuck them all!

>The USA spends more on the military than the next highest nine countries combined. Military expenditures can and should be cut. An aside, before long, maybe in a few years, the interest expense on the national debt will exceed military spending.


We spend more on interest for our $37 trillion in debt, too.

If we cut military spending, how would Ukraine, Israel, and all of the other countries we support survive?

We actually pay for pensioners in Ukraine! Can you believe that? Our own people's pensions are at risk but we paid a corrupt dictator in Ukraine to make ther government workers pensions solvent. Does that piss you off? It should. WTF are we doing?

I have heard that people who use credit cards instead of case generally spend 10 to 20 precent more of their earnings just because the mental connection to money is removed. Our government has no fucking clue about anything even though tehy pretend to be smart about every fucking topic. The proof is $37 trillion in debt.

Does anyone know what a trillion is? Lets demo it by time:

one million seconds is about 11.5 days

one billion seconds is about 32 years

Here's the big one.

one trillion seconds is 31,689 years

We are about to see a death spiral of our debt as the interest will just accumulate and be added to the debt faster than we can pay it. We will be using Zimbabwe currency when that happens, where they carried denominations between $1 to $100 trillion.

While everyone should be concerned here, we should be more concerned about unfunded mandates. That puts us over $200 trillion!

There is no accurate accounting in any of these score cards. They ignore changes of income patterns with changes of tax codes and instead use a static analysis. They also use baseline budgeting so even a 10% budget cut actually increases spending. Originally Posted by farmstud60

Ok, so what you're trying to say is that the accounting office of the government has either a light or heavy finger on the scale of dollars and budgets; and that they are inept at predicting income and expenses etc., as they employ a majority of advanced degreed folks including actuaries to do those calculations.

The CBO's staff of around 275 members is described as comprising mostly economists or public policy analysts with advanced degrees, along with lawyers, IT specialists, and editors.

While this suggests a strong quantitative and analytical focus, it doesn't specify the exact proportion of actuaries within this group. But safe to say, -these are not the cornpone hillbillies we see in congress who are nothing but full of hot air and political messaging. And while some ppl mention Rand Paul- that guy is an eye doctor by education- but a total douchebag by reputation. Even his next-door neighbor thought he needed a proper ass whooping and delivered it.

.

The US has an old age dependency ratio of 33%.

The old age dependency ratio is a measure of the retiree vs worker population.

Right now the US is number six on the list of highest ratios. It would be higher except for the fact that we’ve been taking in immigrant workers.

This “greying” of America is only going to get worse and increase our mandatory spending requirements in the budget.

Cutting Social Security and Medicare is one option but a better option is to just raise taxes on everyone across the board. If congress could do that then maybe they can come up with some ways to start shaving down mandatory spending on healthcare.

Read the article. It’s fairly short.
https://www.thestreet.com/retirement...ing-age-adults
Graying Planet: Top Countries with the Highest Ratio of Elders to Working-Age Adults

Japan leads the world! Explore the countries with the most retirees compared to working populations. See how demographics are shifting globally.

Pearls before swine, Tiny. Originally Posted by Ducbutter

You wanted pearls Ducbutter. Here are some pearls.

I hope you can understand that the reason for this disaster of a bill is because of the 118th Congress being incapable of doing it, under the leadership of Mike Johnson, Schmuck Schumer and the president, Traitor Joe (or some autopen handler).

They had ONE FUCKING JOB, and that is to pass a budget. But instead these geniuses played politics and were only able to kick that can down the road. The reason they have ONE JOB is their own doing. They used to pass bills during their session, which is approximately 140 days a year. But they can't hide behind things or accuse opponents of being against "X" (X= blacks, asian albino alaskans...) if they have many bills so they wait until the final minutes of the fiscal year and pass a gigantic, many thousand page "bill", sometimes with blank pages that can be filled in later. they "buy" votes to ensure passage, with this OBBB's final buyouts going to Alaska.

They whole fucking system is rigged and there aren't two parties. There is the Uniparty, some socialists, a few commies, and a few conservatives which always get the label "far right" or "extreme" but if you compare them to a 1990s Democrat you wouldn't know the difference.

So, you don't like this bill? Blame Schumer, Johnson and Traitor Joe. Their inaction in their 140 days of hard work resulted in this.

140 days...

Thats is 225 days off per year

Thats 28 weeks of work 24 weeks of vacation

They make $174,000 a year

Thats more like $453,642 with all the time off

But lets dig deeper...

Nancy Pelosi does better with her stock picks than the expert traders on wall street

So does Dan Crenshaw

So does MTG

So do many of the other Uniparty rats.

And they complain that they don't make enough money and try to sneak raises into these "Omnibus bills" hoping nobody will notice.

Fuck them all! Originally Posted by orallvr69

>The USA spends more on the military than the next highest nine countries combined. Military expenditures can and should be cut. An aside, before long, maybe in a few years, the interest expense on the national debt will exceed military spending.


We spend more on interest for our $37 trillion in debt, too.

If we cut military spending, how would Ukraine, Israel, and all of the other countries we support survive?

We actually pay for pensioners in Ukraine! Can you believe that? Our own people's pensions are at risk but we paid a corrupt dictator in Ukraine to make ther government workers pensions solvent. Does that piss you off? It should. WTF are we doing?

I have heard that people who use credit cards instead of case generally spend 10 to 20 precent more of their earnings just because the mental connection to money is removed. Our government has no fucking clue about anything even though tehy pretend to be smart about every fucking topic. The proof is $37 trillion in debt.

Does anyone know what a trillion is? Lets demo it by time:

one million seconds is about 11.5 days

one billion seconds is about 32 years

Here's the big one.

one trillion seconds is 31,689 years

We are about to see a death spiral of our debt as the interest will just accumulate and be added to the debt faster than we can pay it. We will be using Zimbabwe currency when that happens, where they carried denominations between $1 to $100 trillion.

While everyone should be concerned here, we should be more concerned about unfunded mandates. That puts us over $200 trillion! Originally Posted by orallvr69

I nominate OralLvr69 for the 2025 Eccie Rick Santelli award. Here's Santelli's classic rant, that set off the tea party movement,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEZB4taSEoA

So will Musk's new party put an end to deficit exploding legislation like the American Rescue Plan and the Big Beautiful Bill? My money's on "no." He may get 8 or 9 seats like he says he will. But that leaves 627 or 628 seats in the hands of the uniparty.

And while some ppl mention Rand Paul- that guy is an eye doctor by education- but a total douchebag by reputation. Even his next-door neighbor thought he needed a proper ass whooping and delivered it.

. Originally Posted by eyecu2

Yes, but they're all douchebags. He's one of the few who doesn't want to spend us into oblivion.

Where did you pull that 5 trillion number Blackman? Out of Pinocchio's ass? The CBO and JCT estimates range from $2.3 to $3.3 trillion. And those are static estimates -- see Farmstud's post.

What would it be if Democrats controlled the presidency and Congress? They certainly would have left the cuts in place for Americans making less than $250,000 or $400,000 or whatever. They wouldn't have cut out some of the green corporate pork the Republicans did. They would have removed the SALT cap, etc.

To the extent that the $2.3 to $3.3 trillion is caused by lower taxes, that's more money left in the hands of hardworking Americans. And more left with businesses, which will drive investment, salaries, and lower prices. GDP growth will be higher than it would be otherwise because of lower taxes.

And hell yeah, we have no business running up huge deficits in peacetime when we're not facing a recession. They need to cut spending. Make federal government more efficient. Push more of it onto the states and localities, which are much better stewards of our tax dollars than the feds.

Maybe you've spent too much time in politics and don't understand people can think independently. Just because I agree with Trump about Ukraine, deregulation and corporate taxes doesn't mean I believe the federal government should spend like a drunken sailor. Originally Posted by Tiny

They raised the debt ceiling 5 trillion. You think they did that for no reason. Of course not. It’s because they know that’s the amount of additional debt they’ll incur during Trump’s term.

You supported the people that passed this monstrosity. Good luck with it. But know you can’t ever credibly complain about government spending and republicans fiscal redponsibility.

I hope you can understand that the reason for this disaster of a bill is because of the 118th Congress being incapable of doing it, under the leadership of Mike Johnson, Schmuck Schumer and the president, Traitor Joe (or some autopen handler).

They had ONE FUCKING JOB, and that is to pass a budget. But instead these geniuses played politics and were only able to kick that can down the road. The reason they have ONE JOB is their own doing. They used to pass bills during their session, which is approximately 140 days a year. But they can't hide behind things or accuse opponents of being against "X" (X=Children, blacks, asian albino alaskans...) if they have many bills so they wait until the final minutes of the fiscal year and pass a gigantic, many thousand page "bill", sometimes with blank pages that can be filled in later. they "buy" votes to ensure passage, with this OBBB's final buyouts going to Alaska.

They whole fucking system is rigged and there aren't two parties. There is the Uniparty, some socialists, a few commies, and a few conservatives which always get the label "far right" or "extreme" but if you compare them to a 1990s Democrat you wouldn't know the difference.

So, you don't like this bill? Blame Schumer, Johnson and Traitor Joe. Their inaction in their 140 days of hard work resulted in this.

140 days...

Thats is 225 days off per year

Thats 28 weeks of work 24 weeks of vacation

They make $174,000 a year

Thats more like $453,642 with all the time off

But lets dig deeper...

Nancy Pelosi does better with her stock picks than the expert traders on wall street

So does Dan Crenshaw

So does MTG

So do many of the other Uniparty rats.

And they complain that they don't make enough money and try to sneak raises into these "Omnibus bills" hoping nobody will notice.

Fuck them all! Originally Posted by orallvr69

Bullshit. That’s all I have to say that. The republicans in the house refused to put any bill to a vote that wasn’t DOA and trash. First they claimed regular order bills only and no omnibus bills then they couldn't get their own bills passed. Knowing their bills were DOA they never sent anything passable to the senate. The senate had a budget but the house wouldn’t pass it in hopes they could get Trump elected. Which they did so they could give us this monstrosity.

My good friend Mike Johnson as the next speaker... Originally Posted by 1blackman1

I hope you can understand that the reason for this disaster of a bill is because of the 118th Congress being incapable of doing it, under the leadership of Mike Johnson, Schmuck Schumer and the president, Traitor Joe (or some autopen handler). Originally Posted by orallvr69

Bullshit. That’s all I have to say that. The republicans in the house refused to put any bill to a vote that wasn’t DOA and trash. First they claimed regular order bills only and no omnibus bills then they couldn't get their own bills passed. Knowing their bills were DOA they never sent anything passable to the senate. The senate had a budget but the house wouldn’t pass it in hopes they could get Trump elected. Which they did so they could give us this monstrosity. Originally Posted by 1blackman1

That was below the belt Oral Lover 69. It’s not your fault though. You didn’t know Mike Johnson was Blackman’s good friend. They’re both members of the Louisiana bar. Even though Johnson and Blackman are about as far apart as you can get on social issues, it wouldn’t be surprising if Blackman contributed to his campaign. Friends do that for friends.

And now, with the Big Beautiful Bill, Blackman’s having second thoughts. Or at least he’s really pissed off at Mike Johnson. But you’re not supposed to be mad at yourself or mad at your good friend. So he’s projecting on me in this thread. There’s some deep psychological shit going on here. But I’m happy to be Blackman’s scapegoat if it helps make him happy or improves his self esteem.

You supported the people that passed this monstrosity. Good luck with it. But know you can’t ever credibly complain about government spending and republicans fiscal redponsibility. Originally Posted by 1blackman1

I gave money to three House and one Senate campaign in the 2024 election cycle. Two of the candidates voted for the big beautiful bill. There’s no chance in hell the other two would have voted for it, but one got knocked off in the primaries and one in the general election.

HOWEVER, I gave substantially more money to a couple of 501 c 3 /501 c 4 groups which fight the good fight against deficit spending. They fought tooth and nail against the Big Beautiful Bill. And the American Rescue Plan, the Build Back Better bill, etc.

My conscience is clear. Is yours??

I gave money to three House and one Senate campaign in the 2024 election cycle. Two of the candidates voted for the big beautiful bill. There’s no chance in hell the other two would have voted for it, but one got knocked off in the primaries and one in the general election.

HOWEVER, I gave substantially more money to a couple of 501 c 3 /501 c 4 groups which fight the good fight against deficit spending. They fought tooth and nail against the Big Beautiful Bill. And the American Rescue Plan, the Build Back Better bill, etc.

My conscience is clear. Is yours?? Originally Posted by Tiny

Tiny is stuck in the middle. Just on the side of right. Meaning just left.

Socially conscious. Economically selfish.

What can I say eccieuser. Greed is good!

We may disagree somewhat on Trump's handling of COVID and a lot on the American Rescue Plan, but that's a good, well argued post Adav8s28. The Topic Police are out in force, so I'll reply in the "How are we going to pay for all this shit" thread. Will be back with you.

Also, the maximum marginal federal rate is 40.8% for self employment income and investment income, which probably accounts for most of upper income taxpayers total income. (Admittedly long term capital gains and qualified dividends are taxed at 23.8%.) And would go to 43.4% under your proposal. Add the state income tax and many Americans would be paying 50%+ marginal rates. We already have the most progressive tax system in the OECD, and upper income taxpayers pay at European rates. You take it much higher and the USA will end up like France under Hollande. The wealthy will figure out ways to pay less tax in ways that will make the economy less efficient, or leave. Originally Posted by Tiny

I was referring to the tax rate percentages for the 7th tax bracket in the Federal Tax Tables for 2016 and 2018 (the first year of the Trump tax cuts of 2017).

Tax Rates for 2016

10% on income up to $9,275
15% on income over $9,275 to $37,650
25% on income over $37,650 to $91,150
28% on income over $91,150 to $190,150
33% on income over $190,150 to $413,350
35% on income over $413,350 to $415,050
39.6% on income over $415,050


Tax Rates for 2018:

10%: Income up to $9,525 (single) / $19,050 (married filing jointly)
12%: Income over $9,525 to $38,700 (single) / $19,050 to $77,400 (married filing jointly)
22%: Income over $38,700 to $82,500 (single) / $77,400 to $165,000 (married filing jointly)
24%: Income over $82,500 to $157,500 (single) / $165,000 to $315,000 (married filing jointly)
32%: Income over $157,500 to $200,000 (single) / $315,000 to $400,000 (married filing jointly)
35%: Income over $200,000 to $500,000 (single) / $400,000 to $600,000 (married filing jointly)
37%: Income over $500,000 (single) / $600,000 (married filing jointly)


The 7th tax bracket tax rate percentage should still be at 39.6%. This is part of the reason Trump was running Trillion dollar deficits before CoVid hit . The one percent don't pay enough tax under Trumps tax cuts of 2017 which expire this year. Under the Big Beautiful Bill that just passed the the Trump Tax Cuts of 2017 will be continued and will not expire. The OP is saying the deficit will continue to grow, the continuation of the Trump Tax cuts of 2017 is one of the reasons.


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