Interesting article on pulling fossil fuel subsidies

WTF's Avatar
  • WTF
  • 03-01-2021, 10:38 AM
So when we're all driving EVs will wtf be whining about the highways being a subsidy for greenies? Originally Posted by lustylad
I know you didn't mean to but you've brought up a point many have discussed for quite a while.

Hopefully many will concede it is a regressive tax.
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  • WTF
  • 03-01-2021, 10:41 AM
Obama was constantly full of shit

Obama would talk about the subsidies for oil and gas, then Romney would come back with solyndra, saying something like obama shouldn't pick winners and losers but even so why did he always pick the loser Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought
EV is not a loser.

Solar is not a loser.

Wind is not a loser.

ff is not a loser.
lustylad's Avatar
I know you didn't mean to but you've brought up a point many have discussed for quite a while.

Hopefully many will concede it is a regressive tax. Originally Posted by WTF
??? There you go again, off on a fucking tangent.

1. If we're all driving EVs there won't be any gas tax revenues to maintain the highways.

2. Most greenies are part of the 1% anyway.

IMO the gas tax is a much better "user fee" than toll roads.
  • Tiny
  • 03-01-2021, 11:35 AM
of the tax itself only about 60% goes toward maintaining and constructing roads and bridges, with the rest pilfered off into the great unknown Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought
Wow! I didn't know that. They ought to break the gasoline tax out on receipts, like they do sales taxes, so people would be aware of how much they're paying.

Hopefully many will concede it is a regressive tax. Originally Posted by WTF
OK, I've decided to stop arguing the gasoline tax is a tax on owners of the gas stations, and I agree with you.

Taxes on tobacco and alcohol are regressive too. Society appears to believe that reducing usage of tobacco and alcohol and emissions of carbon are worthy goals. I'm not saying whether society is right or wrong on that. But you have to tax something. Why not tax things you want to discourage more, and tax things like making money that you want to encourage less?
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  • WTF
  • 03-01-2021, 11:36 AM
??? There you go again, off on a fucking tangent.

1. If we're all driving EVs there won't be any gas tax revenues to maintain the highways.

2. Most greenies are part of the 1% anyway.

IMO the gas tax is a much better "user fee" than tolls. Originally Posted by lustylad
The regressive tax was in regards to another thread. The person knows who it was directed at.

1) True....that is why that situation needs to be addressed now. Right now , gas engines are subsidizing EV cars in this regard. You are a fool if you think I've taken any position other than truth and candor on this issue.

2) true but there are a lot more greenies than just 1%.

3) It was ....tolls would be more equitable now with EV's, gas tax it gives EV's an advantage. Just curious, have you ever owned or driven an EV? They are great. It will take a while but this is similar to the horse vs car.
lustylad's Avatar
Just curious, have you ever owned or driven an EV? They are great. It will take a while but this is similar to the horse vs car. Originally Posted by WTF
They may make you feel virtuous, but they're not an answer to carbon emissions. Not even close...


EVs Are the Lowest Climate Priority

No matter how you slice the data, the car in your driveway is an emissions asterisk.


By Holman W. Jenkins, Jr.
Feb. 9, 2021 6:18 pm ET

The Joe Biden administration will be piling a lot of chips on electric cars, the most popular and least useful way of fighting climate change. How much do the cars you and I drive actually contribute to emissions?

Don’t ask the Union of Concerned Scientists, an EV promoter habituated to quickly changing the subject to “transportation” emissions. Many inventories also ignore the full range of greenhouse emissions, focusing on CO2 to foster a nevertheless-untenable illusion that passenger cars provide leverage over a global climate problem. No matter how you fiddle the data, personal EVs are a single-digit factor and belong low on any sane list of priorities.

If the Environmental Protection Agency is right, the average light vehicle racks up 11,500 miles a year and sits idle 96% of the time. The World Resources Institute says passenger vehicles account for 7.5% of all emissions, but this includes buses, taxis, etc. Rental cars average 31,000 miles. Other fleet vehicles average 23,000 or more. Heavy trucks average 63,000 miles. One finding that appalled fleet operators is that their vehicles spend up to 33% of their time idling, which is not how people treat their personal vehicles.

The International Energy Agency in 2016 estimated that if 50% of all new cars were electric, petroleum use would continue to grow because of “trucks, aviation and the petrochemical industry and we don’t have major alternatives to oil products there.”

Exxon Mobil estimated more recently that if all new cars were electric by 2025, and the world’s entire fleet were electric by 2040, liquid-fuel demand in 2040 would be the same as 2013’s.

Few talk about it, but mining battery-related minerals generates emissions too. An electric car that’s sitting in your garage, not displacing a significant amount of gasoline-powered transportation but still sucking power out of a wall socket, can be a net emissions contributor when all is said and done.

Which brings us to another wrinkle. Tesla could likely make its electric cars profitably but instead scales its business to break even on fuel-economy credits sold to conventional car makers. Follow the money. Tesla is dipping into the same pickup-truck revenue stream that Ford and GM use to subsidize their own electric vehicles.

When GM recently waved a press release saying it might produce nothing but electric cars in 2035 given the right government policies, it was essentially boasting of its relationship with Mr. Biden, whose favorite line was once “bin Laden is dead, General Motors is alive.”

GM expects to do well under revamped Obama fuel-economy rules that, yes, have put more EVs on the road. By the EPA’s own calculation, any emissions gains have also been offset five times over by the pickup truck and SUV boom that Team Obama facilitated to ensure a successful auto bailout.

Lesson: When government seeks to do complicated things while appeasing multiple constituencies, it usually produces absurd results. And even less talked about is the 57-year-old U.S. pickup truck tariff that further entrenches this Detroit business model.

EVs are wonderful for many reasons but not for the reasons that climate-sanctimonious politicians promote. I won’t repeat an earlier column on climate policies that might actually be worth pursuing. Notice that the one innovation that greens opposed, fracking, has done more to reduce emissions than all government efforts combined.

Everybody’s behavior here is explicable except the greens, who have sold out to the EV distraction for rewards unrelated to progress on climate change. Mr. Biden himself is a nice man and politician of the type who seldom sees that what is popular and sounds good isn’t necessarily good. He spent the ’70s and ’80s pushing legislation to worsen America’s energy crisis and, incidentally, promote coal globally though scientists even then warned about acid rain and climate effects.

Let’s end with a look at GM’s Super Bowl ad, featuring the comedic actor Will Ferrell envying Norway’s love affair with electric vehicles. What the ad lacked in wit it also lacked in informational value.

Norwegians are indeed keen EV buyers because their politicians ladle on the tax handouts, free parking, half-price tolls and even free charge-ups in some jurisdictions. These indulgences are financed how?Tiny Norway, with 0.07% of the planet’s population, exports 3% of the world’s oil and 14% of its natural gas. Its sovereign-wealth fund, where these riches accumulate, tops $1.3 trillion, or $245,000 per citizen.

Norway is an unrepresentative EV hothouse in every way except one. Like the rest of the world, it’s been unwilling to let EV companies develop free of distorting subsidies from fossil-fuel users that will be difficult ever to remove. Here’s the tragic part: The politics of these handouts is almost guaranteed to suck the air out of the room for things that might actually make a difference, like a carbon tax.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/evs-are...ty-11612912722
Wow! I didn't know that. They ought to break the gasoline tax out on receipts, like they do sales taxes, so people would be aware of how much they're paying.

Originally Posted by Tiny
well in Wikipedia it says

Then-Secretary of Transportation Mary Peters stated on August 15, 2007, that about 60% of federal gas taxes are used for highway and bridge construction.

I know its old info
Tangentially, anyone interested in talking about the cost and environmental impact of replacing the batteries on EV's or the cost and environmental impact of keeping one charged?

https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla...n-replacement/

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/38915/...3-battery-pack
WTF's Avatar
  • WTF
  • 03-01-2021, 02:05 PM
well in Wikipedia it says

Then-Secretary of Transportation Mary Peters stated on August 15, 2007, that about 60% of federal gas taxes are used for highway and bridge construction.

I know its old info Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought
This is a much more up to date. It says Texas diverts 55% of it's gas tax to something other than its intended use.

https://www.cato.org/blog/highways-gas-tax-diversions
The federal government imposes a gasoline tax of 18.4 cents per gallon. Lobby groups are pressing for an increase and President Trump has suggested that he may support one. But a federal gas tax increase makes no sense.


State governments own America’s highways, and they are free to raise their own gas taxes whenever they want. Indeed, 19 states have raised their gas taxes just since 2015, showing that the states are entirely capable of raising funds for their own transportation needs. State gas taxes average 34 cents per gallon.


Also consider that gas taxes used to be a more pure user charge for highways, but these days gas tax money is diverted to inefficient nonhighway uses such as transit. Politicians say, “We need a gas tax increase to fix our crumbling highways,” and then they spend the money on other things. It is a bait‐​and‐​switch.


Federal fuel taxes and vehicle fees raise about $41 billion per year. About 20 percent of those funds (about $8 billion) are diverted to transit and other nonhighway uses.


With state fuel taxes the diversion is even larger, as shown in this Federal Highway Administration table
texas wasn't part of the post, I was speaking of federally
WTF's Avatar
  • WTF
  • 03-01-2021, 04:12 PM
texas wasn't part of the post, I was speaking of federally Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought
Yes...my post was both more up to date and more detailed.

Tiny mention he did not realize there was a gasoline tax (if I understood correctly). You provided a smidgen of info.

I expanded it a bit.

States too can tax gasoline and they do.
Says HedonistForever: The irony is staggering. The Democrat party, the champion of "subsidizing" every crazy idea under the sun is against this particular subsidy that literally brought us the wealth we have.[/I]

You should know more about subsidies before making such an uninformed crack. But that's a typical misunderstanding by ideologues. The democrats and the republicans use subsidies to calm their constituencies. Think about the subsidies to farmers and industrial agriculture. That's a Republican honey pot. The reasonable way to phase out fossil fuels is to shrink their subsidies. We're moving away from fossil fuels, it is obvious. And that's a better thing for human beings and for other living things on this planet. The most important aspect of civilization is having a livable environment. It all begins and ends with that.
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  • WTF
  • 03-01-2021, 06:16 PM
We should stop the child tax credit subsidy!


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We should stop the child tax credit subsidy! Originally Posted by WTF
Agreed. Stop subsidizing crotch fruit, corn, and soy beans.
HedonistForever's Avatar
Says HedonistForever: The irony is staggering. The Democrat party, the champion of "subsidizing" every crazy idea under the sun is against this particular subsidy that literally brought us the wealth we have.[/I]

You should know more about subsidies before making such an uninformed crack. But that's a typical misunderstanding by ideologues.

Yeah, because I suppose there are no Democrat ideologues huh?

The democrats and the republicans use subsidies to calm their constituencies.

I agree. You are admitting that all to often, it is done for no other reason than a political one. Subsidies should only be used to ensure things that people, society need, with food being at the top of the list. Are farm subsidies abused? Hell yes, just like fossil fuel subsidies are but we could not exist as a society without fossil fuels. Some day that will change but not in my lifetime.

Think about the subsidies to farmers and industrial agriculture.

That's a Republican honey pot.

What, only Republicans farm and require food? What an asinine remark.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...bsidies-749870

Poll indicates some support for farm subsidies

More Americans support increasing subsidies for small and medium-size farms than they do for large agricultural businesses, according to the latest results from POLITICO's polling partnership with the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health.

The level of support for increasing payments for small and medium-size operations held steady regardless of political affiliation: Republicans, 44 percent; Democrats, 47 percent; and Independents, 46 percent.


Just 1 in 10 respondents said subsidies should be decreased for small and medium farms, while 33 percent said they should be kept at current levels. Here, too, responses were relatively consistent among Republicans, Democrats and Independents.

The reasonable way to phase out fossil fuels is to shrink their subsidies.

OK, but not to the point where our fossil fuel production decreases to a point that we go back to dependence on OPEC which could very well happen under the Biden administration.

We're moving away from fossil fuels, it is obvious.

Of course we are but it can't be done at a pace that hurts our economy and makes us dependent on other countries.

And that's a better thing for human beings and for other living things on this planet.

So a less robust economy because we do away with fossil fuels and become less competitive in the world is the answer when a country like China, our biggest competitor in the world, will continue to burn fossil fuels for as long as they need to ? You think China's climate change agenda is more important than increasing industrial capacity that right now depends on them burning fossil fuels?

The most important aspect of civilization is having a livable environment. It all begins and ends with that. Originally Posted by Muy Largo
A livable environment also means people having the energy they need at a cost they can afford or there will be chaos and discontent if we make the wrong changes to fast. Just look at what happened in Texas when they tried to get cute on ever increasing energy prices.

We subsidized fossil fuel exploration and development because it was necessary to the life we wanted and expected. Again, has it been abused, of course it has but subsidies in my opinion should only be used for things we can not do without and like it or not, for the foreseeable future, we can not maintain what we have created without fossil fuels.

Yes, that will change someday.

There is nothing ideological about needing what it takes for a human to live, food and water and the ability to fuel our industry to create jobs and keep us warm.

Subsidies should be reserved for the things we must have to survive and stay competitive and they can not be handed out for political reasons. It really isn't that hard to figure out if we only had the will to do what's right and not what is politically expedient.