Why do we Play the way we do? Independent Providers vs Agency Girls vs Dancers that P4P vs Civiliains that P4P vs Sugarbabies
- pyramider
- 03-02-2010, 08:41 PM
Different strokes for different folks.
- dammit
- 03-02-2010, 08:47 PM
LOL, that sums up my longer post to a tee!
- ChrisS
- 03-03-2010, 09:42 AM
Whispers, et al, and Sensual Sophia,
All great points.* I, for one, have never shied away from controversial topics and I actually do enjoy these types of threads but I think many are too quick to take things personal.* With that in mind *please don’t shoot me. I am simply an economist who is offering an opinion on reasons “why something happens”, not if it is right or wrong.* Also, please don’t get offended if providers are “supply” and Johns are “demand”.* Finally, I could probably argue for the converse in many ways and this is not meant to be exhaustive list of complete inputs to the model.* *But I think these things all play a part in what is happening.** Sensual Sophia is on the right track…much of what is driving Austin is found in Economics. I don’t think Supply and Demand cover it all but it does play a part.* For those that know me, know I am an economist who likes to look at where markets “fail” and, to be fair, there is a little of that here but also a lot of other things where it is functioning EXACTLY how you would expect it too.
*
For example, Supply and Demand play a part.* But I think that can be found in Demographics also.* Most in UT, as SS points out are “select”.* They got into a top university in Texas/region.* It isn’t a surprise that the Coeds I found in the hobby were from St. Eds, etc.* But because of many govt. programs, mom and dad’s money, etc, I think most are insulated from “need” in a big way.* They are usually upper middle class too.* Now, most young girls and guys I have known left college and went a few places, DFW #1 and Houston #2 with SA a distant #3.* But keep in mind, all those areas are 3, 4 and 5x the size of Austin.* The Demand is MUCH greater for their skills, hobby or not.* That addresses Demand.* For Supply, you get a preponderance of younger gals with fewer skills breaking into big markets.* Completely understandable that the supply would be there.* Whereas in Austin, you get the biggest # of 18-22 gals being in a university with less need to engage in activities (per capita as always) and on their way to DFW, Houston and SA.* Also, it is true that we have a higher per capita income in Austin.* We also have a much lower % of “poverty” and this often “drives” many into the business.*** I will not speak to racial demographics other than to say we have a very small minority population compared to other Texas cities (both % and #wise) and Asian and Subcontinent % are higher. Being a fan of Latinas (Durango, you are Da’ man), I am disappointed in this.* I wish we had more flavors of ladies (ala Shattner and the blue women).*
*
Bigger issue, I think might be “network” effect.* Think eBay.* EBay works when LOTS of buyers and LOTS of sellers get together.* When they combine, it is a really good thing for all but drives the optimal “market” price.* You get much wider variance of “worth” price paid on Yahoo auctions than you do on eBay. I think our oasis might be “overpriced” compared to DFW but it also has some great bargains too.* *Also, once the markets are bigger, it provides more possibilities for “individuals” to recruit.* Many won’t but a few will.* And if you have more of the “few”, you will get lots more than those that just wandered in on their own.* Particularly I am thinking of a gal in Austin that has brought in about 4-5 other gals.* If there were more of her, there would be LOTS more gals.* But lower numbers mean lower inputs also. (and yes, the same goes for demand).
*
Really big issue not addressed:* Tragedy of the Commons.* There is an old story where the people in England would keep a common field where each family could put a cow, kept in common for all the families.* All the “common areas” were destroyed.* Why, cause all the families put more than a single cow since it cost them nothing and all the land was “overgrazed”.* What happens is that many “new finds” are horded instead of being shared with the “common” eccie or ASSSSSPD crowd.* When someone finds a “great lay”, they are reluctant to share or if they do, they keep it to a few select individuals.* Not blaming them but what is left is fewer “new” gals that prop the numbers up, thus keeping the “supply” downàbigger effect in smaller market (also is a self perpetuating cycle as the $ cost more per gal and thus incentivizes this behavior).* For a great read on this, see the “insurance study of Philadelphia”.* When there is no price to pay for “using the common”, people over use it and kill it.* In this case, people are keeping away (or hoarding) new supply.* In a smaller market, this is a big deal. (ok, this isn’t completely TOTC but the general effect is the same).
*
Then we get brand and “barrier to entry”.* Believe it or not, I think “breaking into” eccie as a provider is a bit hard. I have heard on previous boards that getting provider status was a “bitch”.* And that gals had to do things for some individuals that they didn’t want or like to get “status”.* I am not accusing anyone of anything here.* That is all hearsay .* But a more relevant point is that getting status is a “no turning back” point.* You are now, in your mind and others, a P4P gal.* Whereas BP or CL are just one time things.* That keeps supply much lower on a site like eccie.* For someone going into the biz for a short time (and don’t all think they will do this a short time?), taking that step might be a hard one.* Same thing happens in bigger cities but you get bigger pulls from bigger populations.
*
As for Brand, many of the things listed above keep the “supply” low and lower still in Austin versus other, bigger communities (I think they all play together).* But what gals we do have (and I love them all), now have a “valuable” brand.* They are “proven safe” in regards to LE.* They have reviews which makes “bait and switch” or “cash and dash” a much lower risk.* They can charge a premium for that.*
*
Finally, as regards to Strippers or such.* I totally understand.* A) most don’t know the “market” and, as pointed out, might be a bit naïve.** B) most work a full shift for the same amount that they can make for just a few hours with one of us but it is not “optimized” like it would be here.* C)* To be fair, and all us guys know this…Strippers are for the most part, self absorbed and hit and miss.* That can be a big, big plus.* But also a downer.* In short, it is an unknown quantity for the most part (also alluring at times).* Finally, D) strippers are (god love ‘em) all “going to Med school or law school”.* They are doing this for a short time usually on their way to “bigger and better things”.* Crossing the barrier to being a professional implies some sense of permanency.* Oh, and one last thing.* Though every provider here has a “right to refuse” at any time, most won’t unless it is bad.* They will see you, for the most part, no matter how bad you look or weight you have put on.* But strippers can be much more discerning when it comes to P4P (just my experience, my first gf out of college in the Army was a stripper…God I miss her).
*
My one thing I can’t figure out is why we don’t get more “visiting” gals from Dallas.* For that, we might want to look at our “rep” or Brand on “how we treat our providers”. *My first mentor told me that when you are involved in something and it isn’t working, look at yourself first.* *I don’t know enough if we get a bad rep or not but when I visited DFW *2 years ago, I heard from one provider who said that she couldn’t get enough business and that the “payoff” wasn’t good enough for the trouble (In Austin).* I didn’t enquire as to specifics of “trouble” and it is only anecdotal but it makes me wonder if we have a bad rep or something.* Then again, many jack their rates automatically in Austin once they come here.
*
Anyway, sorry for the long thread. *I am not passing judgement either way in this case.* IMHO, the market is “working”.* If you don’t like it, it is probably mostly dictated by the above issues.*
Finally, to providers.* I would urge you to pay attention to your “brand”.* Once it is damaged, it can’t be fixed.* Well, not easily.* Your reputation is the most important thing you have.* Don’t hurt it!
To the Gentlemen, I am one of you. Simply vote w/ our wallets. Simplest thing to do.
To everyone, civility at all times...except on bed. Then let loose with your dirtiest language!
*
All great points.* I, for one, have never shied away from controversial topics and I actually do enjoy these types of threads but I think many are too quick to take things personal.* With that in mind *please don’t shoot me. I am simply an economist who is offering an opinion on reasons “why something happens”, not if it is right or wrong.* Also, please don’t get offended if providers are “supply” and Johns are “demand”.* Finally, I could probably argue for the converse in many ways and this is not meant to be exhaustive list of complete inputs to the model.* *But I think these things all play a part in what is happening.** Sensual Sophia is on the right track…much of what is driving Austin is found in Economics. I don’t think Supply and Demand cover it all but it does play a part.* For those that know me, know I am an economist who likes to look at where markets “fail” and, to be fair, there is a little of that here but also a lot of other things where it is functioning EXACTLY how you would expect it too.
*
For example, Supply and Demand play a part.* But I think that can be found in Demographics also.* Most in UT, as SS points out are “select”.* They got into a top university in Texas/region.* It isn’t a surprise that the Coeds I found in the hobby were from St. Eds, etc.* But because of many govt. programs, mom and dad’s money, etc, I think most are insulated from “need” in a big way.* They are usually upper middle class too.* Now, most young girls and guys I have known left college and went a few places, DFW #1 and Houston #2 with SA a distant #3.* But keep in mind, all those areas are 3, 4 and 5x the size of Austin.* The Demand is MUCH greater for their skills, hobby or not.* That addresses Demand.* For Supply, you get a preponderance of younger gals with fewer skills breaking into big markets.* Completely understandable that the supply would be there.* Whereas in Austin, you get the biggest # of 18-22 gals being in a university with less need to engage in activities (per capita as always) and on their way to DFW, Houston and SA.* Also, it is true that we have a higher per capita income in Austin.* We also have a much lower % of “poverty” and this often “drives” many into the business.*** I will not speak to racial demographics other than to say we have a very small minority population compared to other Texas cities (both % and #wise) and Asian and Subcontinent % are higher. Being a fan of Latinas (Durango, you are Da’ man), I am disappointed in this.* I wish we had more flavors of ladies (ala Shattner and the blue women).*
*
Bigger issue, I think might be “network” effect.* Think eBay.* EBay works when LOTS of buyers and LOTS of sellers get together.* When they combine, it is a really good thing for all but drives the optimal “market” price.* You get much wider variance of “worth” price paid on Yahoo auctions than you do on eBay. I think our oasis might be “overpriced” compared to DFW but it also has some great bargains too.* *Also, once the markets are bigger, it provides more possibilities for “individuals” to recruit.* Many won’t but a few will.* And if you have more of the “few”, you will get lots more than those that just wandered in on their own.* Particularly I am thinking of a gal in Austin that has brought in about 4-5 other gals.* If there were more of her, there would be LOTS more gals.* But lower numbers mean lower inputs also. (and yes, the same goes for demand).
*
Really big issue not addressed:* Tragedy of the Commons.* There is an old story where the people in England would keep a common field where each family could put a cow, kept in common for all the families.* All the “common areas” were destroyed.* Why, cause all the families put more than a single cow since it cost them nothing and all the land was “overgrazed”.* What happens is that many “new finds” are horded instead of being shared with the “common” eccie or ASSSSSPD crowd.* When someone finds a “great lay”, they are reluctant to share or if they do, they keep it to a few select individuals.* Not blaming them but what is left is fewer “new” gals that prop the numbers up, thus keeping the “supply” downàbigger effect in smaller market (also is a self perpetuating cycle as the $ cost more per gal and thus incentivizes this behavior).* For a great read on this, see the “insurance study of Philadelphia”.* When there is no price to pay for “using the common”, people over use it and kill it.* In this case, people are keeping away (or hoarding) new supply.* In a smaller market, this is a big deal. (ok, this isn’t completely TOTC but the general effect is the same).
*
Then we get brand and “barrier to entry”.* Believe it or not, I think “breaking into” eccie as a provider is a bit hard. I have heard on previous boards that getting provider status was a “bitch”.* And that gals had to do things for some individuals that they didn’t want or like to get “status”.* I am not accusing anyone of anything here.* That is all hearsay .* But a more relevant point is that getting status is a “no turning back” point.* You are now, in your mind and others, a P4P gal.* Whereas BP or CL are just one time things.* That keeps supply much lower on a site like eccie.* For someone going into the biz for a short time (and don’t all think they will do this a short time?), taking that step might be a hard one.* Same thing happens in bigger cities but you get bigger pulls from bigger populations.
*
As for Brand, many of the things listed above keep the “supply” low and lower still in Austin versus other, bigger communities (I think they all play together).* But what gals we do have (and I love them all), now have a “valuable” brand.* They are “proven safe” in regards to LE.* They have reviews which makes “bait and switch” or “cash and dash” a much lower risk.* They can charge a premium for that.*
*
Finally, as regards to Strippers or such.* I totally understand.* A) most don’t know the “market” and, as pointed out, might be a bit naïve.** B) most work a full shift for the same amount that they can make for just a few hours with one of us but it is not “optimized” like it would be here.* C)* To be fair, and all us guys know this…Strippers are for the most part, self absorbed and hit and miss.* That can be a big, big plus.* But also a downer.* In short, it is an unknown quantity for the most part (also alluring at times).* Finally, D) strippers are (god love ‘em) all “going to Med school or law school”.* They are doing this for a short time usually on their way to “bigger and better things”.* Crossing the barrier to being a professional implies some sense of permanency.* Oh, and one last thing.* Though every provider here has a “right to refuse” at any time, most won’t unless it is bad.* They will see you, for the most part, no matter how bad you look or weight you have put on.* But strippers can be much more discerning when it comes to P4P (just my experience, my first gf out of college in the Army was a stripper…God I miss her).
*
My one thing I can’t figure out is why we don’t get more “visiting” gals from Dallas.* For that, we might want to look at our “rep” or Brand on “how we treat our providers”. *My first mentor told me that when you are involved in something and it isn’t working, look at yourself first.* *I don’t know enough if we get a bad rep or not but when I visited DFW *2 years ago, I heard from one provider who said that she couldn’t get enough business and that the “payoff” wasn’t good enough for the trouble (In Austin).* I didn’t enquire as to specifics of “trouble” and it is only anecdotal but it makes me wonder if we have a bad rep or something.* Then again, many jack their rates automatically in Austin once they come here.
*
Anyway, sorry for the long thread. *I am not passing judgement either way in this case.* IMHO, the market is “working”.* If you don’t like it, it is probably mostly dictated by the above issues.*
Finally, to providers.* I would urge you to pay attention to your “brand”.* Once it is damaged, it can’t be fixed.* Well, not easily.* Your reputation is the most important thing you have.* Don’t hurt it!
To the Gentlemen, I am one of you. Simply vote w/ our wallets. Simplest thing to do.
To everyone, civility at all times...except on bed. Then let loose with your dirtiest language!
*
- Whispers
- 03-03-2010, 12:45 PM
- Sensual Sophia
- 03-03-2010, 01:20 PM
Whispers, et al, and Sensual Sophia,I <3 u! seriously. <3, <3, <3 u. Thanks for the very well reasoned and interesting post.
All great points.* I, for one, have never shied away from controversial topics and I actually do enjoy these types of threads but I think many are too quick to take things personal.* With that in mind *please don’t shoot me. I am simply an economist who is offering an opinion on reasons “why something happens”, not if it is right or wrong.*
....
Finally, to providers.* I would urge you to pay attention to your “brand”.* Once it is damaged, it can’t be fixed.* Well, not easily.* Your reputation is the most important thing you have.* Don’t hurt it!
To the Gentlemen, I am one of you. Simply vote w/ our wallets. Simplest thing to do.
To everyone, civility at all times...except on bed. Then let loose with your dirtiest language!
* Originally Posted by ChrisS
- Guest022712-3
- 03-08-2010, 02:36 PM
ChrisC--
I can answer the question in regards to why you don't get more Dallas ladies in Austin.
Within 2 hours of posting my ad about my visit-- I received not 1, but FOUR different warnings from different people about different "concerns" in Austin. I won't reveal any of them, just know that 3 warnings were from gents and one was from a lovely lady.
For some, thats likely going to make Austin "not worth their time and effort". Me? I don't get the opportunity to travel often, so I figured what the heck.
I can answer the question in regards to why you don't get more Dallas ladies in Austin.
Within 2 hours of posting my ad about my visit-- I received not 1, but FOUR different warnings from different people about different "concerns" in Austin. I won't reveal any of them, just know that 3 warnings were from gents and one was from a lovely lady.
For some, thats likely going to make Austin "not worth their time and effort". Me? I don't get the opportunity to travel often, so I figured what the heck.
- sixxbach
- 03-08-2010, 05:25 PM
December,
that is awful that people would PM ANYONE about not wanting to come to a city. it makes hobbyists and providers from austin look bad. if you provide good TCB, are not mechanical and provide good value.... the men here will eat you up... literally too!
i am disappointed that we have people who would discourage you to come. a BIG SHAME on THEM!
that is awful that people would PM ANYONE about not wanting to come to a city. it makes hobbyists and providers from austin look bad. if you provide good TCB, are not mechanical and provide good value.... the men here will eat you up... literally too!
i am disappointed that we have people who would discourage you to come. a BIG SHAME on THEM!
- rekcaSxT
- 03-08-2010, 08:59 PM
December,I didn't warn her in the sense that she shouldn't come, but she should be aware of girls not wanting to provide references. Also to be aware that some girls will have their WK's schedule only to NCNS.
that is awful that people would PM ANYONE about not wanting to come to a city. it makes hobbyists and providers from austin look bad. if you provide good TCB, are not mechanical and provide good value.... the men here will eat you up... literally too!
i am disappointed that we have people who would discourage you to come. a BIG SHAME on THEM! Originally Posted by sixxbach
And December, your are a peach!
- Sensual Sophia
- 03-08-2010, 09:17 PM
I didn't warn her in the sense that she shouldn't come, but she should be aware of girls not wanting to provide references. Also to be aware that some girls will have their WK's schedule only to NCNS.Can you please tell us who these girls are, if you have any first hand knowledge of it? People who behave that way are a threat to our community -- and a threat to the safety of providers.
And December, your are a peach!
It could also just be a rumor... but seriously, if you have any actual evidence that this is happening or has happened in the past, I'm sure the mods would love to know about it.
I often have cancellations when I travel. I always give them the benefit of the doubt and believe their excuse. I recently had a trip in which 3 of my clients canceled due to medical emergencies. But 2 of the 3 rescheduled and I do believe the other guy too because I'm just not a fan of wild conspiracy theories that can't be proven. BUT if I found out there was a WK scheduling and canceling on me on purpose -- you better believe I would be steamed.
It's funny though, I often have a pretty hard time with obtaining references from Dallas girls. They often don't respond at all. I never assumed it was the city -- just the individual girl. I think most girls who don't give references (and I can name names if you want to know) just have bad TCB. They may be too high-volume to remember anything and/or too incompetent/inconsiderate to get around to responding. These girls often don't screen well themselves so they don't really appreciate how important it is to respond. But malicious behavior is another story.
So thanks RekcaSxT for making this girl fear Austin. Now can you tell us who these evil eccie members are how you know about it?
- rekcaSxT
- 03-08-2010, 09:30 PM
It seems I wasn't the only one who warned her.
But the reference thing is something we have all dealt with. And that is exactly why I am on p411.
The NCNS thing was told to me by several people, and most recently a trusted hobby friend I will not reveal. But believe me this person would know what they are talking about.
As far as the Mods knowing, I am sure there have been reports, but the thing about this is, how do you prove it anyway? These guys wouldn't dare use their well known handle to schedule with a visitor. And how would you prove who the provider was who was asking them to do this.
It is just like when we suspect a duck review, we can not always prove it, but they sure do smell quacky. Or when there are rumors about a girl who has a pimp, sometimes it can be proven sometimes it cant.
Don't make me out to be the bad guy here. I was trying to HELP our lovely Dallas visitor who has great TCB and skills, NOT scare her.
But the reference thing is something we have all dealt with. And that is exactly why I am on p411.
The NCNS thing was told to me by several people, and most recently a trusted hobby friend I will not reveal. But believe me this person would know what they are talking about.
As far as the Mods knowing, I am sure there have been reports, but the thing about this is, how do you prove it anyway? These guys wouldn't dare use their well known handle to schedule with a visitor. And how would you prove who the provider was who was asking them to do this.
It is just like when we suspect a duck review, we can not always prove it, but they sure do smell quacky. Or when there are rumors about a girl who has a pimp, sometimes it can be proven sometimes it cant.
Don't make me out to be the bad guy here. I was trying to HELP our lovely Dallas visitor who has great TCB and skills, NOT scare her.
- Sensual Sophia
- 03-08-2010, 09:45 PM
K... but you are making accusations about providers in Austin without evidence. And as one of the many Austin providers who responds to reference requests, I resent that. You are correct that such evidence would be hard to obtain. I wonder how this hobby friend of yours new about it. I have heard the same rumor from various hobbyists over the years... but nobody has ever pinpointed a person or said they had first hand experience -- just that it was something they had heard... I have also heard this "warning" about Corpus and never had any problems on my trips there.
Don't make me out to be the bad guy here. I was trying to HELP our lovely Dallas visitor who has great TCB and skills, NOT scare her. Originally Posted by rekcaSxT
I've also heard rumors that people have STDs or people are working with L.E. Again, it just seems like gossip until you can identify something more directly.
But I would like to start a hall of shame for providers who don't respond to reference requests. I'm not talking about just one time because their internet was down... but I mean the girls who regularly don't respond.
- rekcaSxT
- 03-08-2010, 09:52 PM
K... but you are making accusations about providers in Austin without evidence. And as one of the many Austin providers who responds to reference requests, I resent that. You are correct that such evidence would be hard to obtain. I wonder how this hobby friend of yours new about it. I have heard the same rumor from various hobbyists over the years... but nobody has ever pinpointed a person or said they had first hand experience -- just that it was something they had heard... I have also heard this "warning" about Corpus and never had any problems on my trips there.If it could be honest, I think a poll showing how many ladies from other cities had run into this ncns problem in Austin would be informative. There are probably threads from the past in provider only areas where girls have said they had issues with this. Of course the guys in Austin would have no idea because it is part of a bigger.... ok, I am not going down the conspiracy slippery slope.
I've also heard rumors that people have STDs or people are working with L.E. Again, it just seems like gossip until you can identify something more directly.
But I would like to start a hall of shame for providers who don't respond to reference requests. I'm not talking about just one time because their internet was down... but I mean the girls who regularly don't respond. Originally Posted by Sensual Sophia
I am still not outing my source, THAT would be very ill-advised.
As far as the Hall Of Shame, go for it. I think anything that is done to keep shenanigans under control is warranted.
- LadiesFan
- 03-08-2010, 10:12 PM
I didn't warn her in the sense that she shouldn't come, but she should be aware of girls not wanting to provide references. Also to be aware that some girls will have their WK's schedule only to NCNS. Originally Posted by rekcaSxT
But I would like to start a hall of shame for providers who don't respond to reference requests. I'm not talking about just one time because their internet was down... but I mean the girls who regularly don't respond. Originally Posted by Sensual SophiaSounds to me that Sensual Sophia and kcaSxT are both on the same side on this one... another happy ending
LF
- sixxbach
- 03-08-2010, 10:27 PM
sacker, come on man.... no provider would intentionally harm another provider's ability to make cash in someone else's turf.... just like im sure no one would start a thread about what a hobbyist looks like so in case he changed his nic, a provider would know who he is
- rekcaSxT
- 03-08-2010, 10:30 PM