Value: What is it?

Good afternoon Bubba

I actually went and re-edited my post, and simply said have a good weekend. But you continue to talk to me. Will you asked if I was lonely, well not anymore, I see you enjoy keeping me company via the internet. I am truly flattered. I do love a good debate....but don't go telling everybody that.

Time and time again, people before have tried to tell the ladies how to run their business. Well it falls on deaf ears.


You are wrong. I am not a product, you know, I am not sitting on a shelf, I am not a restaurant. And I do not think the other ladies are to. We are human being. A person, you know.

Yes you wrong...you are a guy, its not a simple process for us wonderful ladies. Well for those of us who care about our clients. I have no idea what your day or business dealings is like, however it is not a provider, maybe the male providers can relate to what we do.

At last please go count how many threads total in Dallas, of the men unhappy and wanting a better experience. Its about three of them, and you know what, some of us ladies who do the right thing around are sick of hearing it. You will not find any alerts on me, no complaints of bad service..do you understand now???

The ladies who are messing up and providing bad services are NOT reading this. You know....and guess what, the good providers are sick of hearing about it, and wonder why those ladies stay in business.

Wishing you the best Sincerely
Lisa

Lisa, put what I say in context, please. I said

"I will tell you just like I tell so many guys, If you see someone trying to help or understand, even if they are wrong, be helpfull and encourage. If most or all of what you have to say is negitiave, just STFU. You are making things worse not better. If you see nothing of value here move on. If you see an outright falsehood or error, explain why you feel that way and how to make it better."

There is a HUGE difference between not agreeing and just tearing things down because you don't agree. If you think I am wrong, fine. But then support your argument. Give information that provides a resolution to the problem. Be part of the solution.

"Some woman get it, and some woman will never get it. Who are you to teach those who do not understand. That is their problem."

So, when I see people struggling, hear them complaining, I should do nothing to help whem I have the inclination, ability, and resources to do so? Many people have helped me in many ways over the years. Some unasked for. Some I did not appriciate until much later. Without their caring and desire to help I would not be as successfull as I am. Sorry, I am too caring and empathec to just walk by and do nothing when I can have an impact. If you dont want my advice, ignore it.

I have yet to see any arguments from you that any of my concepts or points are wrong, why they are wrong and how to better address the problem. All I get from your posts is I am wrong about everything because I am a guy. Originally Posted by Bubba3452

I agree with almost everything you said. However, EVERY free market has forces that impact and direct that market. Some things may apply better to one market than another. Some may require modification to make them work or study to see their influnce. But, the market preasures are still there. If you can understand those forces and use that knowledge to your benifit, you will be more successfull. If you ignore those forces, you will always be reacting and behind the curve. Maybe I don't understand some of those forces and how they impact the hobby, But, I am trying to learn.

I explained in my post in the other thread here, normal market forces are not in effect, the hobby is not an efficient or rational market. Therefore much of your analysis does not apply.

1) The Hobby is an underground market which skews normal consumer and supplier marker forces.

2) The Hobby is an entertainment industry where where 'value' is very subjective to each individual taste (more like the faddish fashion industry). Hence the reason why most providers struggle to create a regular client base when most clients are into "the Hunt." And unlike a Rock Band that creates a fan base by releasing consistently NEW music, there is only so much a provider can do to create a "new and improved" experience for their clients.

3) Once again I reiterate, we in the Hobby are playing with some of the most powerful emotions known to humans. As such, emotional forces drive this "market" more than rational ones such as the emotional basis of pricing, activity preferences, and the drive so many clients have for new unreviewed hotties.

From the close of my earlier post: Originally Posted by DFK Hunter

I feel like a hobbyist can not tell a provider how she should market or what price should be charged for a paticular service. That is something the provider should use her own discretion for,based on a client by client basis,due to factors such as:HYGENE,SMELL,AND GROOMING!!........Because we are not on that side of the fence,we can all say what we think would work,but at the end of the day we have no idea. They deal with a wide range of characters.I myself have no problem paying a reasonable amount of money for a quality provider....and when I say quality I don't mean is she GFE.BBBJ,etc... I like the overall expierence the conversation,the APPERANCE(defintely being the biggest factor)personality,flirting!! I love it all from start to finish. I believe in quality over quantity any day!

Bubba, I can say as a man I can understand what your intentions were with an acceptable degree of certainty. The problem is you are addressing a female audience in trying to help and you are missing the bigger picture.

Your original post while heavy on logic, doesn't register with your target audience because quite frankly, it objectifies your audience to a degree that it may feel like it turns a wholesome human being, into a can of soup or a Mariachi sombrero ( just to use as examples ), that can be bought at a grocery store or a Mexican Bazaar. I am not saying that is what's on your mind or in your heart, but it is hard to interpret tone and intent on the written word.

You have already been told your post is insulting to them ( you should take a hint. Your intent was not that, but their perception is their reality ), and yet you ignore that and continue to ask them to engage you in this thread about what points are valid or invalid. Your post is too long and not worth their time and effort.

I did sales for a few years myself and I remember this one thing: If I had a single lady or a couple as potential customers, if at any point the lady felt insulted by me for whatever reason, I had fucked myself out of a sale every time.

To use my experience above in this thread, I believe you just fucked yourself out of this sale. I admire the effort you put into typing your original post and I will not tear down anything you posted. I am simply observing the reaction and sharing what I see with you. I don't think at this point you can "sell" your ideas. You have already lost many of them. I would suggest you stop digging at this point. You have good views to offer on other topics if you so choose....

For those taking this a little too heavy, calm down. It's Friday YAY! Here is a clip I thought was funny about the male vs. female brain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ2IiyAEo-o


Mat

Lisa, I could not see your edit results till I hit the post button. As to the complaints, You do not have access to the ML so you cannot know how many guys complain about the non-contact part of the business every day.

When I think I have something helpfull to say, I will say it. If you dont agree, then just move on, No one is forcing you to read my posts. If something I post is really wrong or harmfull, then jump in and offer better advice.

Maybe most of the women who are casuing most of the problems won't read this. But neither of us can know that. Some might.

Others, even if they totaly disagree with what I say, may, just may, come up with an idea that does help them because people talked and discussed the issues of our hobby and put forth ideas. Even if you disagree with what I say, but it makes you think about things and find solutions that make you more successfull, then I am happy. After all, that is one of the points of discussion. To learn and understand.

I agree with almost everything you said. However, EVERY free market has forces that impact and direct that market. Some things may apply better to one market than another. Some may require modification to make them work or study to see their influnce. But, the market preasures are still there. If you can understand those forces and use that knowledge to your benifit, you will be more successfull. If you ignore those forces, you will always be reacting and behind the curve. Maybe I don't understand some of those forces and how they impact the hobby, But, I am trying to learn. Originally Posted by Bubba3452

Simply put your initial analysis fails to comprehend that this is an emotionally driven market; hence your value and pricing model falls completely apart. For example, you analysis does not recognize that a provider's price structure must include her self-worth. There's a reason why alcohol (and unmentionables) is more prevalent among the lower priced provider community (like streetwalkers). It also fails to comprehend how physical security (bad customers) influences how a provider sets her rates. The lower the rate and the risk that a bad (read that dangerous) customer opening the door increases. So I can understand why a provider would rather starve than lower her rates and risk getting robbed and beaten.

These are all market forces that each provider who has posted to this thread understands, but your model does not.

great post!! i think this should be the automated response when this subject comes up again! Originally Posted by 214JULES

Thank you.

I love how you keep me company.

Do you want to continue discussing this over season nine of Smallville. I'll pay for the steaks..and maybe a beer.

Come over im feeling lonely......again

Lisa, I could not see your edit results till I hit the post button. As to the complaints, You do not have access to the ML so you cannot know how many guys complain about the non-contact part of the business every day.

When I think I have something helpfull to say, I will say it. If you dont agree, then just move on, No one is forcing you to read my posts. If something I post is really wrong or harmfull, then jump in and offer better advice.

Maybe most of the women who are casuing most of the problems won't read this. But neither of us can know that. Some might.

Others, even if they totaly disagree with what I say, may, just may, come up with an idea that does help them because people talked and discussed the issues of our hobby and put forth ideas. Even if you disagree with what I say, but it makes you think about things and find solutions that make you more successfull, then I am happy. After all, that is one of the points of discussion. To learn and understand. Originally Posted by Bubba3452

Bubba that is an excellent post. I agree with alot of what you have said.

Let me edit: Some of what DFK said is true also.

Other things that can drive price is what it takes for a lady to set up and maintain her business, all the costs that go into providing her customers with what they like. She may be paying for the hotel/motel up front for her customer. What if that customer base prefers nice hotels to quick one hour ones? Then her cost goes up, and she has to recuperate that income some how. What if she is paying for someone to build and maintain her website? Things like buying lingerie, makeup, outfits, and her gas expense are all factors to her pricing too. Then there is the one thing some people forget about, most of these women do not have medical care. And to keep up on check ups and doctor care the cost can be exuberant.

Simply put your initial analysis fails to comprehend that this is an emotionally driven market; hence your value and pricing model falls completely apart. For example, you analysis does not recognize that a provider's price structure must include her self-worth. There's a reason why alcohol (and unmentionables) is more prevalent among the lower priced provider community (like streetwalkers). It also fails to comprehend how physical security (bad customers) influences how a provider sets her rates. The lower the rate and the risk that a bad (read that dangerous) customer opening the door increases. So I can understand why a provider would rather starve than lower her rates and risk getting robbed and beaten.

These are all market forces that each provider who has posted to this thread understands, but your model does not. Originally Posted by DFK Hunter

Again, I agree with a lot of what you say. But, I did not say for women to drop their prices. In fact, I pointed out some of the problems with doing so. You have added several more very good ones as well.

But, why many of us choose someone is based on value however you define it. I have suggested ladies that are struggling look at how to increase their value to their customer, new as well as repeat. If one would actualy read my post completly, they will see I not saying drop your prices. Increase your value, yes, but not your prices.

It is clear to me that several people who jumped on me did not read the whole post or make any effort to understand it. As a lady who PMed me said, they just see a guy posting and their eyes glaze over because they THINK he is saying to drop their prices. Please read my post and tell me where I said the best thing to do is lower your prices.

DFK, you do appear to have read and made an effort. And, I appricate your point of view especialy as you have given me several more good points and insights. You dont have to agree, but at least you try to support your point of view. Thanks

Again, I agree with a lot of what you say. But, I did not say for women to drop their prices. In fact, I pointed out some of the problems with doing so. You have added several more very good ones as well.

But, why many of us choose someone is based on value however you define it. I have suggested ladies that are struggling look at how to increase their value to their customer, new as well as repeat. If one would actualy read my post completly, they will see I not saying drop your prices. Increase your value, yes, but not your prices.

It is clear to me that several people who jumped on me did not read the whole post or make any effort to understand it. As a lady who PMed me said, they just see a guy posting and their eyes glaze over because they THINK he is saying to drop their prices. Please read my post and tell me where I said the best thing to do is lower your prices.

DFK, you do appear to have read and made an effort. And, I appricate your point of view especialy as you have given me several more good points and insights. You dont have to agree, but at least you try to support your point of view. Thanks Originally Posted by Bubba3452

How would you define value ? Wouldn't that be somewhat subjective too? Each man would have a different idea on what would be a good value to them. Does that mean more of doing A, or doing less of B?

Thanks for being polite and constructive Guilty Pleasure.

Allow me one point:

I never said drop your prices as the best solution. In fact, there are many reasons not to. There are many other ways to increase value, make your self more marketable, if you will.

And one point about price I do want to make. Do you really need X amount per hour or is it more X per day/month? If you say, I need $500 per day then you free up your self to think about how to reach the longer term goal. You might end up with 2 encounters of 2 hours each instead of 2 hours total but you still made your goal. Your making the same per encounter. And I know many ladies who do not watch the clock and end up giving more time anyway. If you have lots of spare time, use it. Nothing wrong with advertising the hourly rate the same, but consider if you offer more time, will you get what you need? Especialy with someone you might be able to make a repeat customer.

When my business is slow, I often work more hours, give more time and extra attention to my customers so I still make my goals. Does not always work but it helps.

Bubba that is an excellent post. I agree with alot of what you have said.

Let me edit: Some of what DFK said is true also.

Other things that can drive price is what it takes for a lady to set up and maintain her business, all the costs that go into providing her customers with what they like. She may be paying for the hotel/motel up front for her customer. What if that customer base prefers nice hotels to quick one hour ones? Then her cost goes up, and she has to recuperate that income some how. What if she is paying for someone to build and maintain her website? Things like buying lingerie, makeup, outfits, and her gas expense are all factors to her pricing too. Then there is the one thing some people forget about, most of these women do not have medical care. And to keep up on check ups and doctor care the cost can be exuberant. Originally Posted by Guilty Pleasures

Of course its subjective, that was one of the first things I said. But that does we can not find some general concepts that can be adapted to help define it to some degree. I did define my concept of Value in my first post.

How would you define value ? Wouldn't that be somewhat subjective too? Each man would have a different idea on what would be a good value to them. Does that mean more of doing A, or doing less of B? Originally Posted by Guilty Pleasures

I love how you keep me company.

Do you want to continue discussing this over season nine of Smallville. I'll pay for the steaks..and maybe a beer.

Come over im feeling lonely......again Originally Posted by lisa.lisa0302

Now Lisa, Your just toying with me.
I did not say you were lonely. I said

If you respond so negitiavily to someone who really wants to help and is concerned, even if they may do it poorly, then you will find it very lonely.

People will not want to talk to you much if all you do is trash them. Clearly you do not do that to your clients. But, you do tend to respond harshly on the boards. You will not get respones you may want or need if people feel you are going to jump their cases if they respond. (Won't stop me, BTW)

PS, I hear Make Up sex is the best. Maybe I should come over

Exactly December. I am NOT trying to tell ANYONE how to handle the actual contact part of the business as you put it. I would never dream to tell anyone how to do the part they are an expert at. But, the rest of it IS a business. If you don't treat it that way, you will not do well.

I know nothing about actualy doing a providers work. I have never experienced the emotional toll and physical drain it must place on all of you except in concept. But, arranging for a place of business, manageing communications, how to provide great customer service outside the actual contact part, advertising, those are things I do know very well. And the vast majority of complaints I hear are focused square on the non-contact part of the business. Bait & Switch advertising, NC/NS or other communication problems, inaccurate or confusing advertising of services that are not delivered. Why can I not understand and be helpfull in thoise areas?

Thats why so many people with great ideas or products fail. They may know their product or service but they don't know anything about running a business. The best learn or get someone to show them or help them with the nuts and bolts of running a business. Originally Posted by Bubba3452

I think maybe you don't see that there are different kinds of people in the business. While there are many, I'll break it down to two just for the sake of answering your question. Those girls you were talking about who ncns, bait and switch, rob people--that's one kind. I don't know why you thought that they were "business people" because it's obvious to everyone that they aren't running a business. They're usually just trying to scrape by for a habit. They're not trying to build their portfolios or expand their marketing strategies. So no, you can't help with those things. Saying "hey, you'd make more money if you showed up to appointments" is pretty ridiculous. I think they know that. They don't care.

The other kind of lady is a business person who thinks about price point, advertising, brand recognition, and customer service. She has a savings account and takes nice vacations. But considering the personal cost of being in this business, sometimes our bottom line is really whether or not it's worth it to us emotionally. That is something you'll have a hard time putting on a graph.

The market is down. I don't live in a barn. I know very well how the economy is doing and that people are trying to save money. So should I lower my rates, see several people a day and risk my health and safety ten times more than usual? Well of course not. I'd much rather quit. Would you suck cock for $40K a year? Jesus I hope not. So next time the men around here want to complain about how women run their businesses, keep the two types of ladies separated--we aren't all train wrecks. And when you think we should lower our rates, realize that many of us would quit rather than live that way. And if we quit, the demand for the ladies still left goes way up and of course so do their rates.