Tear gas fired as Hong Kong police, protesters clash

Well hello there, you hit the nail on the head!

Sick of The Mystic. He doesn't work and hates the country that gives him shelter and puts food in his belly. He uses an avatar that is of an old man that is now deceased. Yet he tries to shame others for their age, I bet in real life he looks like bin laden. He's on here 24/7 spouting his anti American bs. He professes his love for his prophet Mahommed. I would sure hate to ride an airplane with him.
I hate political debates but enough is enough. We don't live in a perfect country but I will defend it. Originally Posted by boomer32514

You have valid points, TWK - the Chinese PLA is the core support of the Communist Party. The party let the cat out of the bag - or genie loose - when they liberalized to a capitalist economy. Political repression, or armed takeover of Hong Kong, will destroy the standard of living due to cessation of trade by many countries with china when they use their force to maintain status quo.

The economy goes down the tubes, people go hungry - they army cannot shoot all the people.



There is a smaller model in North Korea - where the Kims have held onto power with a starving populace. The difference is NK is a hermit statue with no outside contacts and a controlled economy - the people have no opportunity to see alternatives or organize.

China's liberalization has set the stage for a change from a totalitarian rule. Even though totalitarian rule by emperors or or mao has been the history - very much as russia has always had an autocratic government.

Problem with Chin - in its' controlled media - how to get the message of revolt out to a populace and get them to buy in. Media outlets are tightly controlled - and any spreading messages of revolt will be quickly lined up against walls and shot. It will take a massive economic collapse - now that many more Chinese are urban and not rural - to mobilize the cities against the Communist rule.

Crackinig dwon militarily on Hong Kong might be the beginning of the end.

We shall see.

I appreciate the thoughtful poster opinions - good dialogue

Except for the usual self-centered Axis of Socialism.

chinese PLA has 1.3 million members, and 500,000 reserve. so this makes it 1.8 million. its a conscript army.

what's unsaid here is the number of former soldiers who are not reserves, would they rejoin the army if push comes to shove?

a chinese general claimed that they could raise 100 million soldiers. doubtful of this claim. 10 million is prolly more realistic.

most of the army is really for riot control. they have at least 1 or 2 riot break outs every month. they have to send the army in to quell it.

and there is a slow burning guerrilla war in Tibet and they also have their hands full with muslims of Northern China.

so it is only a matter of time that more riots will break out in other parts of the country. most of those riots are protest over corruption.

some of these chinese appear to be tradition minded. some think they are living in imperial china where protest petition to the emperor used to be common.

commie leaders in those local areas don't like that custom. so they call in the army.

communist china is on borrowed time. its just a question of when they will go down.

the length of a communist regime is about 70-75 years. China is in that range. North Korea is not too far behind. they are very nervous.

I'm not sure about Communist Vietnam, but they seem to run their affairs differently than the chinese.

if chinese communist party wanted to maintain complete power, opening to the west was mistake they will regret. NK's model was the way to go.

the Red Army can't control tens of millions. what happens when the Communist party issues shoot to kill orders? would the Army kill 20 million people to maintain control? would the common soldier kill citizens by the hundreds of thousands knowing that another soldier somewhere else is killing their family members? China is not stupid. they would send troops to other areas such that they would not be forced to confront their friends, neighbors or even family members. but they are going to know that is exactly what is happening in their hometowns.

the military is always the core support for a Communist regime. without it, total control can't be maintained. remember history. once most of the Generals and thus the army failed to support Czar Nicolas II Imperial rule of Russia was over.

same with China today. the Generals can issue all the orders they want. if the common solider refuses to kill millions to put down a nationwide revolt then it's over. Some Colonels will simply shoot the Generals and then the ruling party members. that's what happens in every military coup throughout history. Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

regarding the Chinese PLA overthrowing the communist party. I think this is doubtful...


many chinese generals and officers are communist party members.


if your theory is correct.. why hasn't Venezuela govt. overthrown by the its own military???


the situation with Czar Nicholas II, a civil war broke out, the imperial army was split. Army wasn't able to support or protect Nicholas II.

regarding the Chinese PLA overthrowing the communist party. I think this is doubtful...


many chinese generals and officers are communist party members.


if your theory is correct.. why hasn't Venezuela govt. overthrown by the its own military???


the situation with Czar Nicholas II, a civil war broke out, the imperial army was split. Army wasn't able to support or protect Nicholas II. Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

the fall of the Communist regime is Inevitable. all communist regimes have ultimately collapsed. Cuba and Venezuela are dead men walking. thy just haven't reached the breaking point yet. so is China. the troops are conscripts which means they don't want to be there any more than US troops wanted to be in Vietnam.


they will not kill 10 million citizens. they will shoot the Generals and the party leadership.

China will fall in 10 years or less. i give then 36 months.

Pathetic ass-fuckers....

Pathetic ass-fuckers.... Originally Posted by andymarksman

BAHHAHHAHHAAAAAAAA TREASON!

the fall of the Communist regime is Inevitable. all communist regimes have ultimately collapsed. Cuba and Venezuela are dead men walking. thy just haven't reached the breaking point yet. so is China. the troops are conscripts which means they don't want to be there any more than US troops wanted to be in Vietnam.


they will not kill 10 million citizens. they will shoot the Generals and the party leadership.

China will fall in 10 years or less. i give then 36 months. Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

i don't know.. they did kill 60 million people during Mao's cultural revolution. this was at time when they were a closed nation.


they did kill a bunch during the Tienanmen square massacre.

You're not a thug if you don't look black.

i don't know.. they did kill 60 million people during Mao's cultural revolution. this was at time when they were a closed nation.


they did kill a bunch during the Tienanmen square massacre. Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

a fine example of state planning of resources. complete control and you can't feed people. maybe it was really an early example of population control?? hmmm ...


many people in China don't know about Tienanmen square.. that it even happened. others only from rumors. some know the truth .. because they have traveled outside China into the real world and have found out the truth. then they take that truth back to China to spread by word of mouth.

You're not a thug if you don't look black. Originally Posted by andymarksman

You can't mean it, Captain!

a fine example of state planning of resources. complete control and you can't feed people. maybe it was really an early example of population control?? hmmm ...

many people in China don't know about Tienanmen square.. that it even happened. others only from rumors. some know the truth .. because they have traveled outside China into the real world and have found out the truth. then they take that truth back to China to spread by word of mouth.
Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

as long China remains more or less an open country, they're in a race to the bottom.

Chicoms think building a hi-tech panopticon society would control the people. it might for the short term.


but as long as they remain open to the world, I think they will fail. you have chinese citizen (some are obviously loyal commies) going to universities and they bring back what they see over here. Like what you said about Tienanmen incident.


I've also read that there are american citizens of chinese decent trapped in china (they can't leave because of something their chinese relatives did)

as long China remains more or less an open country, they're in a race to the bottom.

Chicoms think building a hi-tech panopticon society would control the people. it might for the short term.


but as long as they remain open to the world, I think they will fail. you have chinese citizen (some are obviously loyal commies) going to universities and they bring back what they see over here. Like what you said about Tienanmen incident.

what a dilemma! since the universities in China obviously stink, they send their little commies to the US and elsewhere to get a real education but at the same time they get exposed to the real world and get infected with the "diseases" of freedom and prosperity!



I've also read that there are american citizens of chinese decent trapped in china (they can't leave because of something their chinese relatives did) Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

that would not surprise me. however the US State Department can act on behalf of US citizens being detained in China. or any other nation. if diplomacy can't resolve the issue then why not take reciprocal action? what would China do if the situation became so chronic and unresolved by normal means .. just retaliate. recall all US diplomats from China, advise all US citizens to leave China immediately then wait a bit then detain the Chinese embassy staff. in GITMO.


BAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA

that would not surprise me. however the US State Department can act on behalf of US citizens being detained in China. or any other nation. if diplomacy can't resolve the issue then why not take reciprocal action? what would China do if the situation became so chronic and unresolved by normal means .. just retaliate. recall all US diplomats from China, advise all US citizens to leave China immediately then wait a bit then detain the Chinese embassy staff. in GITMO.


BAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

the problem is the these chinese-american ciizens have been stuck in china something like 6 months to a year. they can travel around china it seems, but cannot leave the country....



movement is obviously slow to address this issue.

the problem is the these chinese-american ciizens have been stuck in china something like 6 months to a year. they can travel around china it seems, but cannot leave the country....



movement is obviously slow to address this issue. Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

interesting issue .. hadn't heard anything about this until now ..


Beijing Is Holding U.S. Citizens ‘Hostage’ in China

https://www.thedailybeast.com/beijin...stage-in-china


Exit bans are a new tool in China’s global coercion campaign.


Bethany Allen-Ebrahimian


Published 06.18.18 4:48AM ET


In its ongoing campaign to extend its reach beyond its borders, the Chinese government has found a new form of leverage: American citizens in China.



Last year, Beijing prevented several U.S. citizens from leaving China, including a pregnant woman, according to email correspondence obtained by The Daily Beast. The total number of so-called exit bans placed on U.S. citizens in China is unknown, but at least two dozen cases have occurred within the past two years, according to one analyst’s estimate.


Chinese authorities typically target U.S. citizens of Chinese heritage for exit bans, usually in connection with an investigation. Sometimes, Beijing uses American citizens to try to coerce family members residing in the United States to return to China or to cooperate with Chinese authorities in investigations.



Chinese President Xi Jinping has championed a sweeping anti-corruption campaign with an international element, known as “Operation Fox Hunt,” aimed at pursuing Chinese citizens who have fled abroad after allegedly committing economic crimes. The United States does not have an extradition treaty with China and in the past has rarely cooperated with Chinese demands to repatriate Chinese citizens whom Beijing considers to be fugitives. Beijing has previously deployed undercover agents to the United States to coerce targets into returning to China, violating U.S. visa laws and prompting U.S. government indignation.


Now the People’s Republic seems to have found another lever of pressure. If one of Beijing’s targets living in the United States has relatives in China, Chinese authorities aren’t shy about applying pressure to those relatives, even if they are U.S. citizens. Exit bans are a “pretty new tool in the Chinese toolbox” for exerting such pressure, said John Kamm, founder of the U.S. nonprofit Dui Hua Foundation, which works on sensitive human rights cases in China.

“That individual might be treated as a material witness. Or that individual might be in effect being held as a hostage in an effort to get the people back.”

— John Kamm, founder of the Dui Hua Foundation

“That individual might be treated as a material witness,” said Kamm. “Or that individual might be in effect being held as a hostage in an effort to get the people back.”


The Trump administration has pushed back quietly but firmly against exit bans. For example, in the lead-up to the first U.S.-China Law Enforcement and Cybersecurity Dialogue, held in Washington, D.C., in October 2017, Attorney General Jeff Sessions pushed for China to allow the free travel of three U.S. citizens who had been prevented from leaving China, including a pregnant woman, according to emails reviewed by The Daily Beast.



“Both sides will continue to cooperate to prevent each country from becoming a safe haven for fugitives and will identify viable fugitive cases for cooperation,” reads the U.S.-China joint statement released on Oct. 6, after the dialogue concluded. “Both sides commit to take actions involving fugitives only on the basis of respect for each other’s sovereignty and laws.”


It’s a delicate balancing act for an administration that also wishes to deport Chinese citizens who are in the United States illegally. In the past, China has often refused to accept deportations, leaving the United States with a large number of Chinese asylum seekers with final deportation orders. In 2015, Beijing’s refusal to accept deportees began to coincide with its push to repatriate fugitives it claimed were guilty of corruption. The Obama administration signed a memorandum of understanding with China to help expedite the deportation process, but remained reluctant to agree to Chinese demands to extradite fugitives.



Human rights groups have warned that fugitives may face torture or death back in China, also expressing concerns that Beijing might use trumped-up corruption charges to get their hands on troublesome political dissidents abroad.


The Department of Justice did not respond to emailed questions. The National Security Council did not respond to a request for comment.
The State Department declined to comment regarding the fate of those three U.S. citizens, citing privacy concerns, but a State Department spokesperson said that the U.S. government had not agreed to repatriate any Chinese citizen due to pressure from exit bans.


“Exit bans have been imposed to compel U.S. citizens to resolve business disputes, force settlement of court orders, or facilitate government investigations.”

— U.S. State Department travel advisory for U.S. citizens traveling to China

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However, in January, the State Department warned Americans that going to China could be risky. “Exit bans have been imposed to compel U.S. citizens to resolve business disputes, force settlement of court orders, or facilitate government investigations,” states the travel advisory for U.S. citizens traveling to China, particularly U.S.-China dual nationals. “Individuals not involved in legal proceedings or suspected of wrongdoing have also be subjected to lengthy exit bans in order to compel their family members or colleagues to cooperate with Chinese courts or investigators.”


It’s difficult to know exactly how many U.S. citizens have been affected. The State Department declined to confirm the number of cases, citing privacy concerns, but Kamm said he knows of about two dozen cases over the past year and half alone.


“One of the problems with exit bans is that you don’t know that there is an exit ban on you until you actually get to the airport,” said Kamm. “There may be people in the country who have exit bans on them and they don’t know it.”


Exit bans have also been applied to ethnic Chinese of other nationalities. Swedish bookseller Gui Minhai was subject to an exit ban after he was kidnapped from Thailand and taken into custody in mainland China. The Swedish government has objected to his treatment there. Australian academic Feng Chongyi was interrogated by security officials while visiting China in 2017 then prevented from leaving the country. He was permitted to return to Australia a week later amid international media attention.


China has frequently used exit bans on its own citizens, most notably in 2010, when it prevented Chinese artist Ai Weiwei and others from traveling to Norway for Chinese activist Liu Xiaobo’s Nobel Peace Prize ceremony. Chinese authorities have also revoked the passports of many Uighurs, a Turkic-speaking ethnic minority in China’s northwest, as part of a massive repression campaign.


Exit bans violate United Nations human rights precepts. Article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that “everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.” The State Department declined to say whether or not China’s actions violated U.S. or international law; the Justice Department did not respond to request for comment.


“A lot of people simply don’t know that they can be stopped for leaving China,” said Kamm.



It’s well-known that China blacklists people from entering, denying visas to academics and journalists who are critical of Beijing.
But, Kamm said, “even worse is if you get into the country and they won’t let you out.”


Bethany Allen-Ebrahimian

chinese govt. treat everyone bad. why is that???? this thing, exit bans seems to have been started under Xi.