I have stated many times that I do believe term limits would really help.
Lots of pros and cons on health care bills in play, some good opinions back and forth stated here.
I do think we need to do "something". I tend to lean toward incremental change, pilot, try stuff, modify, etc. Although I typically ( but not always) vote repub, I want to now see the Repubs do something about voicing what they are willing to vote for, versus just what they will not vote for. And no, I don't really believe Dem comments that they "reached" out to Repubs. They reached out to a few votes they thought they could buy, such as Senator Snowe of Maine.
In business, I used to criticize people who could always say no, but could not say yes. Intellectually, saying no is very easy.
- Judge Smails
- 01-22-2010, 08:41 PM
- kcbigpapa
- 01-22-2010, 10:28 PM
SS, I was hoping you would ask for verification from more posts since you have done so in a few other threads. Since you didn't ask, I willl. We cannot just state that America has the best health care system in the world out of blind patriotism. We don't get to be the best just because we're Americans. I'm from Missouri...SHOW ME!!! Don't take this post as me calling BS on anyone, but I want some proof.
Bear with me as I will ask for verification from a lot of posters, including myself, on their posts on the health care discussion we are having. Obviously the blue text is the quote and the red text is the poster.
1. "Universal health care works in other countries so it should work here." Posted by kcbigpapa. I posted in another thread about the Frontline story regarding health care in United Kingdom, Germany, Taiwan, Switzerland, and Japan.
Frontline's "Sick Around the World"
2. "It upsets me to know that poor people will die because of a lack of health care." Posted by kcbigpapa. First google link about...
"how many people die yearly in america from no health care"
3. "The idea proposed about allowing insurance companies to sell policies across state lines has been proposed by the Republicans for many years, but has been rejected because it allows free market forces to bring down the cost of insurance through competition rather than through regulation." Posted by Fritz. Not so much of asking for proof as my saying do you really think the government is stopping this because they want to be the ones to lower rates through legislation rather than rates dropping because of competition? Is there not already competition in MO? KS? Or do the insurance giants just want to try to run the smaller insurance companies out of business such as banking giants wanted with the banking reform signed under Clinton?
4. "Prescriptions are far more expensive in the U.S. than in other countries because we subsidize the deals their governments negotiate with drug companies." Posted by Gryphon. I wasn't aware we subsidized health care for other countries. Please show me. If you are referring to the result of them paying less because we pay more, that really isn't subsidizing as much as it us getting screwed.
5. "A couple of things; universal healthcare works in other countries... Not the ones that I visited (most of Europe, Canada, the Middle East, and the Carribbean)." Posted by John Galt. Did you experience the health care system in all of these countries or is this opinion. It smells of opinion and not fact to me. I have also been to countries with universal health care, but I never had to use it while traveling.
World map with countries' health care status
6. "In England and Canada healthcare is rationed and can be denied if you have not given up smoking or lost weight to their satisfaction." Posted by Gryphon. I didn't find much on this, but could you add some more verification. What I did find about smoking concerning Canada. They only have to quit smoking 4 weeks prior to a surgery;
"Smokers told to quit or surgery will be refused."
7. "Tort reform (trial lawyers hate this one) will save an estimated 120-150 billion dollars." Posted by John Galt. Seems high. Anything to back up these numbers or were these numbers of minority leader McConnell? What I found;
Interview with Tom Baker, professor of law and health sciences at the University of Pennsylvania School of Law. I have heard before that about 1% of health care costs are because of lawsuits. Tom Bakers numbers seem about right then. US GDP is roughly $13 trillion and health care is roughly 16% of US GDP. Represents a little over $2 trillion, with the 1% being about $20 billion. Still a lot of money, but probably not the only reason for high insurance rates.
8. "Competition between insurance companies like your car insurance. Now you can only choose among the insurance companies that have access to your state." Posted by John Galt. Same question to you as to Fritz above. Do we not have insurance competition right now?
9. "Many took offense when I said America had the best health care providers in the world." Posted by Ampad. Verification. Seems like ethnocentrism to me, in the cultural (American) sense and not the racial sense. This is what I found out about it.
Wikipedia quote, "The debate about U.S. health care concerns questions of access, efficiency, and quality purchased by the high sums spent. The World Health Organization (WHO) in 2000 ranked the U.S. health care system first in both responsiveness and expenditure, but 37th in overall performance and 72nd by overall level of health (among 191 member nations included in the study)." I know this is a decade old study, but I do not think we are number one. Don't ask me for more recent WHO rankings as the WHO stated they didn't think they were going to do any more rankings because of the cost involved.
Ampad, you're description of the Dutch system sounds like the German system from when I watched the Frontline video above. Private not-for-profit insurance companies handled the health care there.
10. "The Candaians, the English, the French all seem to be happy with their health care." Posted by Starry69. Did you actually talk to people of these nations?
11. "America does have the best health care and health care providers in the world." Posted by Fritz. Same question to you as Ampad above? Is this just your opinion or do you have anything to back up your statement.
12. "Then why is it when Canadians, English, French need to have a medical procedure or medical care (cancer treatment, for example) that is denied by their socialized health system, or if they are put on a waiting list for that procedure, come to the USA to have that procedure or care performed?" Posted by Fritz. Proof please. Here's what I found;
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism"]Medical tourism[/ame]
In the above article, "A report from 2008 found that a plurality of an estimated 60,000 to 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care." This is much less than the number of Americans traveling elsewhere for health care. Look at # 16 for those numbers.
13. "Under the Democrat plan for universal health coverage, no one in the US would have had the option to go outside the system to have a denied procedure performed or avoid a waiting period. You would have been arrested, fined and/or taxed for opting out of the system - sounds a bit draconian to me." Posted by Fritz. No where in the article did it mention being arrested. Did you have any evidence of this? Sounds like a fear tactic to me.
14. "I can tell you from personal experience that the Canadian health care does in fact have issues with long wait times to see the doctor (many times at least 5 or 6 hours, maybe more) and then the time with the doctor is only a few minutes." Posted by Tomcat. How is this different than here? This is partly said in jest. But, we only see doctors for a few minutes when we do see them, and I really wouldn't consider 5 or 6 hours a long wait. I would think this would happen often in ER's. It would be a long wait for a physical or check-up though, as opposed to what we are used to currently. I think the long waits are normally described as surgeries with wait times of a few months. But I do not know if this is just for non-life threatening surgeries. I couldn't imagine that life threatening surgeries would have a wait.
15. "I have the advantage of having a healthy family so no pre-existing conditions to worry about. The people that do have pre-existing conditions can easily pay $1500 to $2000 per month for reasonable health insurance if they have to get it on their own,,, if they can get it. Those people need some help. And if they only make $30k or $40k a year, well they are just out of luck." Posted by Tomcat. I don't even know where to start with this. You're right, "if they can get it," is an issue. I don't know if you saw in my original post that it is unfortunate that not all of us can have good jobs as there just are not enough good jobs to go around. If so, we wouldn't have an employment issue or a health care issue. So I would have to disagree that anyone could afford monthly insurance premiums of $1,500-2,000 easily. Maybe if they choose to not put food on the table or have a roof over their head. I am hoping what you wrote is a typo. And if they earn $30-40K per year they are out of luck. $1.5-2K monthly premiums represents $18-24K per year for the out of luck $30-40K earner. You have got to be kidding me. I'm happy your family is healthy, but are you really essentially saying, "tough shit" to everyone else as long as "you got yours?" I hope I am misreading the intent of your post.
16. "I have never heard of anybody traveling out of the US for their health care (with the exeption of experimental procedures)." Posted by Swarmyone. I cannot ask for facts about what you have heard, but my question is if you've been asking about the topic? Here's what I found;
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism"]Medical tourism[/ame]
Here is a quote from the article above, "A forecast by Deloitte Consulting published in August 2008 projected that medical tourism originating in the US could jump by a factor of ten over the next decade. An estimated 750,000 Americans went abroad for health care in 2007, and the report estimated that a million and a half would seek health care outside the US in 2008."
Best countries for medical tourism? Pretty cool link.
17. "Our health care, like our overall quality of life is better than the rest of the world because of capitalism." Posted by Swarmyone. Same question to you as to Ampad and Fritz. Evidence please? Quality of life issue as well. This is what I found about quality of life;
Quality of Life Rankings. Our numbers are very close to France's with the exception of health care. Better health care and we are number 1.
18. "Also, it is a total fallacy to say that ANYBODY has died because of a lack of health insurance." Posted by Swarmyone. See what I posted above in #2.
19. "The democrat's proposals are a disaster that wouldn't fix the problem and would destroy our economy and life as we know it." Posted by Swarmyone. I know this one is just opinion and not provable, but if you could, please elaborate.
20. "For the Dutch question, Starry and amp - can you support those statement with data for us?" Posted by SS. SS you really cannot ask for data on discussions they have had with others. It is them relaying discussions they have had with people in those countries.
Lastly, I thoroughly enjoyed posting this as it forced me to look up a lot of what others posted. It took awhile, but I actually had fun doing it. Of course it took longer because I'm watching TV as well as doing this.
Bear with me as I will ask for verification from a lot of posters, including myself, on their posts on the health care discussion we are having. Obviously the blue text is the quote and the red text is the poster.
1. "Universal health care works in other countries so it should work here." Posted by kcbigpapa. I posted in another thread about the Frontline story regarding health care in United Kingdom, Germany, Taiwan, Switzerland, and Japan.
Frontline's "Sick Around the World"
2. "It upsets me to know that poor people will die because of a lack of health care." Posted by kcbigpapa. First google link about...
"how many people die yearly in america from no health care"
3. "The idea proposed about allowing insurance companies to sell policies across state lines has been proposed by the Republicans for many years, but has been rejected because it allows free market forces to bring down the cost of insurance through competition rather than through regulation." Posted by Fritz. Not so much of asking for proof as my saying do you really think the government is stopping this because they want to be the ones to lower rates through legislation rather than rates dropping because of competition? Is there not already competition in MO? KS? Or do the insurance giants just want to try to run the smaller insurance companies out of business such as banking giants wanted with the banking reform signed under Clinton?
4. "Prescriptions are far more expensive in the U.S. than in other countries because we subsidize the deals their governments negotiate with drug companies." Posted by Gryphon. I wasn't aware we subsidized health care for other countries. Please show me. If you are referring to the result of them paying less because we pay more, that really isn't subsidizing as much as it us getting screwed.
5. "A couple of things; universal healthcare works in other countries... Not the ones that I visited (most of Europe, Canada, the Middle East, and the Carribbean)." Posted by John Galt. Did you experience the health care system in all of these countries or is this opinion. It smells of opinion and not fact to me. I have also been to countries with universal health care, but I never had to use it while traveling.
World map with countries' health care status
6. "In England and Canada healthcare is rationed and can be denied if you have not given up smoking or lost weight to their satisfaction." Posted by Gryphon. I didn't find much on this, but could you add some more verification. What I did find about smoking concerning Canada. They only have to quit smoking 4 weeks prior to a surgery;
"Smokers told to quit or surgery will be refused."
7. "Tort reform (trial lawyers hate this one) will save an estimated 120-150 billion dollars." Posted by John Galt. Seems high. Anything to back up these numbers or were these numbers of minority leader McConnell? What I found;
Interview with Tom Baker, professor of law and health sciences at the University of Pennsylvania School of Law. I have heard before that about 1% of health care costs are because of lawsuits. Tom Bakers numbers seem about right then. US GDP is roughly $13 trillion and health care is roughly 16% of US GDP. Represents a little over $2 trillion, with the 1% being about $20 billion. Still a lot of money, but probably not the only reason for high insurance rates.
8. "Competition between insurance companies like your car insurance. Now you can only choose among the insurance companies that have access to your state." Posted by John Galt. Same question to you as to Fritz above. Do we not have insurance competition right now?
9. "Many took offense when I said America had the best health care providers in the world." Posted by Ampad. Verification. Seems like ethnocentrism to me, in the cultural (American) sense and not the racial sense. This is what I found out about it.
Wikipedia quote, "The debate about U.S. health care concerns questions of access, efficiency, and quality purchased by the high sums spent. The World Health Organization (WHO) in 2000 ranked the U.S. health care system first in both responsiveness and expenditure, but 37th in overall performance and 72nd by overall level of health (among 191 member nations included in the study)." I know this is a decade old study, but I do not think we are number one. Don't ask me for more recent WHO rankings as the WHO stated they didn't think they were going to do any more rankings because of the cost involved.
Ampad, you're description of the Dutch system sounds like the German system from when I watched the Frontline video above. Private not-for-profit insurance companies handled the health care there.
10. "The Candaians, the English, the French all seem to be happy with their health care." Posted by Starry69. Did you actually talk to people of these nations?
11. "America does have the best health care and health care providers in the world." Posted by Fritz. Same question to you as Ampad above? Is this just your opinion or do you have anything to back up your statement.
12. "Then why is it when Canadians, English, French need to have a medical procedure or medical care (cancer treatment, for example) that is denied by their socialized health system, or if they are put on a waiting list for that procedure, come to the USA to have that procedure or care performed?" Posted by Fritz. Proof please. Here's what I found;
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism"]Medical tourism[/ame]
In the above article, "A report from 2008 found that a plurality of an estimated 60,000 to 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care." This is much less than the number of Americans traveling elsewhere for health care. Look at # 16 for those numbers.
13. "Under the Democrat plan for universal health coverage, no one in the US would have had the option to go outside the system to have a denied procedure performed or avoid a waiting period. You would have been arrested, fined and/or taxed for opting out of the system - sounds a bit draconian to me." Posted by Fritz. No where in the article did it mention being arrested. Did you have any evidence of this? Sounds like a fear tactic to me.
14. "I can tell you from personal experience that the Canadian health care does in fact have issues with long wait times to see the doctor (many times at least 5 or 6 hours, maybe more) and then the time with the doctor is only a few minutes." Posted by Tomcat. How is this different than here? This is partly said in jest. But, we only see doctors for a few minutes when we do see them, and I really wouldn't consider 5 or 6 hours a long wait. I would think this would happen often in ER's. It would be a long wait for a physical or check-up though, as opposed to what we are used to currently. I think the long waits are normally described as surgeries with wait times of a few months. But I do not know if this is just for non-life threatening surgeries. I couldn't imagine that life threatening surgeries would have a wait.
15. "I have the advantage of having a healthy family so no pre-existing conditions to worry about. The people that do have pre-existing conditions can easily pay $1500 to $2000 per month for reasonable health insurance if they have to get it on their own,,, if they can get it. Those people need some help. And if they only make $30k or $40k a year, well they are just out of luck." Posted by Tomcat. I don't even know where to start with this. You're right, "if they can get it," is an issue. I don't know if you saw in my original post that it is unfortunate that not all of us can have good jobs as there just are not enough good jobs to go around. If so, we wouldn't have an employment issue or a health care issue. So I would have to disagree that anyone could afford monthly insurance premiums of $1,500-2,000 easily. Maybe if they choose to not put food on the table or have a roof over their head. I am hoping what you wrote is a typo. And if they earn $30-40K per year they are out of luck. $1.5-2K monthly premiums represents $18-24K per year for the out of luck $30-40K earner. You have got to be kidding me. I'm happy your family is healthy, but are you really essentially saying, "tough shit" to everyone else as long as "you got yours?" I hope I am misreading the intent of your post.
16. "I have never heard of anybody traveling out of the US for their health care (with the exeption of experimental procedures)." Posted by Swarmyone. I cannot ask for facts about what you have heard, but my question is if you've been asking about the topic? Here's what I found;
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism"]Medical tourism[/ame]
Here is a quote from the article above, "A forecast by Deloitte Consulting published in August 2008 projected that medical tourism originating in the US could jump by a factor of ten over the next decade. An estimated 750,000 Americans went abroad for health care in 2007, and the report estimated that a million and a half would seek health care outside the US in 2008."
Best countries for medical tourism? Pretty cool link.
17. "Our health care, like our overall quality of life is better than the rest of the world because of capitalism." Posted by Swarmyone. Same question to you as to Ampad and Fritz. Evidence please? Quality of life issue as well. This is what I found about quality of life;
Quality of Life Rankings. Our numbers are very close to France's with the exception of health care. Better health care and we are number 1.
18. "Also, it is a total fallacy to say that ANYBODY has died because of a lack of health insurance." Posted by Swarmyone. See what I posted above in #2.
19. "The democrat's proposals are a disaster that wouldn't fix the problem and would destroy our economy and life as we know it." Posted by Swarmyone. I know this one is just opinion and not provable, but if you could, please elaborate.
20. "For the Dutch question, Starry and amp - can you support those statement with data for us?" Posted by SS. SS you really cannot ask for data on discussions they have had with others. It is them relaying discussions they have had with people in those countries.
Lastly, I thoroughly enjoyed posting this as it forced me to look up a lot of what others posted. It took awhile, but I actually had fun doing it. Of course it took longer because I'm watching TV as well as doing this.
- ampad
- 01-22-2010, 10:57 PM
#9 - I was only regurgitating the talking points from both sides of the debate. It's not that I believe or disbelieve it. I've never received health care in another country so I can't make that determination.
Edit: I added the link to the wikipedia article on the health insurance system in the Netherlands, for those that are interested. From what I read, the companies are not non-profits as they compete for portions of the paid premium. At least that's how I read it. Of course I was never any good at reading comprehension in the first place...
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_the_Netherlands"]Here[/ame]
Edit: I added the link to the wikipedia article on the health insurance system in the Netherlands, for those that are interested. From what I read, the companies are not non-profits as they compete for portions of the paid premium. At least that's how I read it. Of course I was never any good at reading comprehension in the first place...
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_the_Netherlands"]Here[/ame]
- kcbigpapa
- 01-22-2010, 11:32 PM
#9 - I was only regurgitating the talking points from both sides of the debate. It's not that I believe or disbelieve it. I've never received health care in another country so I can't make that determination.I am pretty sure that is how Germany's health care system is based. Competition based not-for-profits. It has been a while since I have watched the Frontline video, but I think it is like that.
Edit: I added the link to the wikipedia article on the health insurance system in the Netherlands, for those that are interested. From what I read, the companies are not non-profits as they compete for portions of the paid premium. At least that's how I read it. Of course I was never any good at reading comprehension in the first place...
Here Originally Posted by ampad
Sorry, I had to post this smiley since I just saw it while responding. LOL.And it looks like there is a smiley for the French health care system as well.
- tomcat2102003
- 01-23-2010, 12:22 AM
14. I have sat in the waiting room with people (related) that were there for a routine checkup (blood work, etc) and they spent the day there. I went to get her lunch and thought I would have to go for dinner. I know of situations were a person went in because the person had a particular aliment and they spent 5 or 6 hours waiting and then left because they didn't know when they would get in. The person ended up going to a doctor here in KC a month or so later. We made an appointment, in the exam room in less than an hour, lab test done, etc and back home in less than 3 hours. Doctor visit a couple days later for results and a lengthy consult on the problem. Just a difference in the process.
15. You misunderstood me. I think it is horrible that people with pre-existing conditions cannot get reasonable coverage for themselves. I used my situation as an example of HSAs working under a good situation simply to support the concept. Thanks for letting me clarify this point, I didn't think of anyone interpeting it the way you did.
15. You misunderstood me. I think it is horrible that people with pre-existing conditions cannot get reasonable coverage for themselves. I used my situation as an example of HSAs working under a good situation simply to support the concept. Thanks for letting me clarify this point, I didn't think of anyone interpeting it the way you did.
- Guest072311
- 01-23-2010, 12:56 AM
SS, I was hoping you would ask for verification from more posts since you have done so in a few other threads. Since you didn't ask, I willl. We cannot just state that America has the best health care system in the world out of blind patriotism. We don't get to be the best just because we're Americans. I'm from Missouri...SHOW ME!!! Originally Posted by kcbigpapaWell I got behind working on getting working and a couple of personal projects. Thanks for covering my a** Papa.
...Wikipedia quote, "The debate about U.S. health care concerns Originally Posted by kcbigpapaWikipedia is not a reliable resource, not all material is resourced. Use with care.
20. "For the Dutch question, Starry and amp - can you support those statement with data for us?" Posted by SS. SS you really cannot ask for data on discussions they have had with others. It is them relaying discussions they have had with people in those countries. Originally Posted by kcbigpapaSo we are suggesting it is opinion based on some one else's opinion? So they would need to specify the information is opinion only?
Lastly, I thoroughly enjoyed posting this as it forced me to look up a lot of what others posted. It took awhile, but I actually had fun doing it. Of course it took longer because I'm watching TV as well as doing this. Originally Posted by kcbigpapaBut hard work pays off. Research, research, research, well done!
- john_galt
- 01-23-2010, 02:26 AM
Okay I did not directly experience European healthcare. I had a US Navy ship with me at the time. I have experienced the VA healthcare system. Last year I had lower abdominal pain, pain like I have never experienced and I have a high pain threshold. For three days everything I put in my mouth (yes, even water) came back up. Being a man I was convinced that it had something to do with food poisoning. I called the local VA and asked duty nurse her opinion. She said that I could come in but there was going to be up to a six hour wait (it was flu season). I couldn't drive so I stayed home and toughed it out. I did get an appointment for six weeks later.
They told me that I had appendicitis. There was still internal inflammation around the site. Funny that was never mentioned by anyone
I had health insurance from my job which would have found the problem pretty quickly but I have always denied my mortality. At least until I turned 50.
They told me that I had appendicitis. There was still internal inflammation around the site. Funny that was never mentioned by anyone
I had health insurance from my job which would have found the problem pretty quickly but I have always denied my mortality. At least until I turned 50.
- Starry69
- 01-23-2010, 08:29 AM
10. "The Candaians, the English, the French all seem to be happy with their health care." Posted by Starry69. Did you actually talk to people of these nations?Yes I have, as well as Israelis, Australians, Irish, Indians, and probably a few other nations. A work related message forum I participate in is multinational and health care has been discussed numerous times.
It's not scientific but it is interesting conversation.
People are always more comfortable with what they know, and I'm sure if you looked you could find people who are unhappy with health care in all those countries too.
- kcbigpapa
- 01-23-2010, 09:22 AM
- tomcat2102003
- 01-23-2010, 09:38 AM
Thanks bigpapa, when I reread what I wrote I saw how you could have misunderstood what I was trying to say. The pre-existing thing affects my extended family and for the past several years I have subsidized that family's insurance so their 4 kids don't go without coverage. This country REALLY needs to fix that part of our health insurance system.
- kcbigpapa
- 01-23-2010, 09:48 AM
Well I got behind working on getting working and a couple of personal projects. Thanks for covering my a** Papa. Originally Posted by ss4699Anytime SS. You've been a reliable source of information and help to myself and others in the past. Always like reading your posts.
Wikipedia is not a reliable resource, not all material is resourced. Use with care. Originally Posted by ss4699I used Wikipedia although I had previously seen the data. I know to take Wikipedia with a grain of salt. Here is the link to the study done by the World Health Organization. Rankings are on page 18.
Measuring Overall Health System Performance for 191 Countries
So we are suggesting it is opinion based on some one else's opinion? So they would need to specify the information is opinion only? Originally Posted by ss4699No, it is not opinion based. They are relaying information that they were told in conversations. If I tell you that I am happy with my health care provider and you tell someone else what I told you. It is not opinion. Now if I told you my health care plan was better than yours, then some data better be available by myself to back it up.
- Gryphon
- 01-23-2010, 10:00 AM
4. "Prescriptions are far more expensive in the U.S. than in other countries because we subsidize the deals their governments negotiate with drug companies." Posted by Gryphon. I wasn't aware we subsidized health care for other countries. Please show me. If you are referring to the result of them paying less because we pay more, that really isn't subsidizing as much as it us getting screwed. Originally Posted by kcbigpapaThe U.S. Surgeon General has stated publicly to 60 Minutes that drug costs are lower in Canada than in the U.S. because the U.S. pays for the lion's share of worldwide drug research and development--we pay the overhead for creating the drugs they buy at lower prices. Reference: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in;contentBody
I call this a subsidy of low drug costs in other countries; you call it us getting screwed. Tom-ay-to, tom-ah-to. I will admit, however, that if Canada and Europe did away with their cost controls their prices would go up but ours would not necessarily go down. The share price of Pfizer would go through the roof, though...
- kcbigpapa
- 01-23-2010, 10:19 AM
I call this a subsidy of low drug costs in other countries; you call it us getting screwed. Originally Posted by GryphonI originally read this as our government subsidized other countries health care, but when I researched it, I found out that you may be referring to the American people as those subsidizing through higher costs. To me a subsidy would be paying farmers to keep the price of wheat down. Making bread affordable. We are just being overcharged.
I will admit, however, that if Canada and Europe did away with their cost controls their prices would go up but ours would not necessarily go down. The share price of Pfizer would go through the roof, though... Originally Posted by GryphonNow I KNOW this is opinion, but I couldn't agree more. My example would be Levi-Strauss. They closed up shop in the US and moved to Mexico and China. They get their products produced cheaper, but prices of their products did not go down as a result. The 560's I used to buy were the same price. Of course, that would be the time to buy Pfizer stock. If you cannot beat 'em, join 'em.
- Guest052813-01
- 01-23-2010, 10:22 AM
3. "The idea proposed about allowing insurance companies to sell policies across state lines has been proposed by the Republicans for many years, but has been rejected because it allows free market forces to bring down the cost of insurance through competition rather than through regulation." Posted by Fritz. Not so much of asking for proof as my saying do you really think the government is stopping this because they want to be the ones to lower rates through legislation rather than rates dropping because of competition? Is there not already competition in MO? KS? Or do the insurance giants just want to try to run the smaller insurance companies out of business such as banking giants wanted with the banking reform signed under Clinton? Originally Posted by kcbigpapaEach state has its own insurance commission which regulates how and what kinds of insurance can be sold within its state's borders (this is from a Supreme Court decision in the 1880s, using the States Rights provision of the Constitution as the basis for this decision preventing federal regulation of insurance companies and practices). There really is no competition in MO or KS because each has a commission which reviews and approves any policies or products developed by insurance companies (by way of bonafides - I worked for two insurance companies over 18 years developing software applications in support of administrating insurance claims, developing policy coverage language to be submitted to insurance commissions for approval and sales of insurance to employers, so I have some experience in how health and life insurance works; plus I have specialized training with an insurance industry certification in both health and life insurance).
11. "America does have the best health care and health care providers in the world." Posted by Fritz. Same question to you as Ampad above? Is this just your opinion or do you have anything to back up your statement. Originally Posted by kcbigpapaOpinion; however, somewhere in the world is the world's worst doctor - has to be, process of elimination - and it's probably not in the US. The bad part is, he's seeing patients tomorrow (thank you, George Carlin).
12. "Then why is it when Canadians, English, French need to have a medical procedure or medical care (cancer treatment, for example) that is denied by their socialized health system, or if they are put on a waiting list for that procedure, come to the USA to have that procedure or care performed?" Posted by Fritz. Proof please. Here's what I found; Medical tourism In the above article, "A report from 2008 found that a plurality of an estimated 60,000 to 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care." This is much less than the number of Americans traveling elsewhere for health care. Look at # 16 for those numbers. Originally Posted by kcbigpapaI'll stand by my statement and use as proof your article link. I didn't say that there weren't people from the US that travel elsewhere if they were unsatisfied or had to wait.
13. "Under the Democrat plan for universal health coverage, no one in the US would have had the option to go outside the system to have a denied procedure performed or avoid a waiting period. You would have been arrested, fined and/or taxed for opting out of the system - sounds a bit draconian to me." Posted by Fritz. No where in the article did it mention being arrested. Did you have any evidence of this? Sounds like a fear tactic to me. Originally Posted by kcbigpapaSince the fines and taxes would be administered by the IRS, and the IRS has the power to arrest and jail anyone who does not want to pay fines and taxes, by extension, you would be arrested if you fail to participate in this plan.
- kcbigpapa
- 01-23-2010, 12:28 PM
Opinion; however, somewhere in the world is the world's worst doctor - has to be, process of elimination - and it's probably not in the US. The bad part is, he's seeing patients tomorrow (thank you, George Carlin). Originally Posted by fritz3552Reminds me of the joke...What do you call the person that finished last in their class at medical school? Doctor.