GOP Not A Normal Party

Fast Gunn's Avatar
Sorry, but you are way off the mark.

You must not know your history very well to make such unfounded accusations.

. . . FDR inherited the Great Depression. It was a combination of his programs and WWII that finally brought this country out of depression and back into prosperity.




The Republicans fundamental mistake has been that they've allowed the Constitution to become null and void because of constantly compromising with liberal Democrats.

Someone asked Nancy Pelosi, where in the Constitution, the federal government was given the authority to implement Obamacare. She responded by asking if they were serious and laughed at them.

We are bankrupt because of entitlement programs created by Democrats; all of them are unconstitutional. If the Republicans had stopped FDR's New Deal and LBJ's Great Society, we wouldn't have 222,000,000,000,000 in unfunded liabilites. America would be alive and well instead of dying. Originally Posted by joe bloe
cptjohnstone's Avatar
Sorry, but you are way off the mark.

You must not know your history very well to make such unfounded accusations.

. . . FDR inherited the Great Depression. It was
WWII that finally brought this country out of depression and back into prosperity.

Originally Posted by Fast Gunn
fixed it for ya
Actually, there is a fair amount of evidence that suggests that FDR's policies, far from ending the Great Depression, prolonged it far beyond its normal lifetime, and made it much, much worse.

There is no doubt at all that World War II is what ended it.
joe bloe's Avatar
Actually, there is a fair amount of evidence that suggests that FDR's policies, far from ending the Great Depression, prolonged it far beyond its normal lifetime, and made it much, much worse.

There is no doubt at all that World War II is what ended it. Originally Posted by Sidewinder
The stock market collapse in 1929 did not have to cause a ten year depression. FDR's Keynesian policies prolonged the economic downturn. He did essentially everything wrong. Obama's policies are like deja vu all over again.

I recommend Amity Shlaes' great book "The Forgotten Man" for its detailed account of how FDR's economic policies made a bad situation far worse.

From American Thinker.com:

The New Deal was the largest real-world test of the Keynesian Myth in recent history. Franklin Roosevelt's Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau confessed that the "New Deal" was a failure in sworn testimony before Congress on May 9, 1939.
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work."

And FDR's Treasury Secretary also told Congress:
"I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started. ... And an enormous debt to boot!"

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/...economics.html
Fast Gunn's Avatar
You are correct that the 1929 market collapse did not need to cause a 10 year depression if we had been smarter.

I will have a look at the book you mentioned, but it was actually Hoover's policies that made a very bad situation even worse. He was the one who did everything wrong.

. . .It is a rather sad commentary that it took World War II to get us out of the economic mess, but FDR's policies did bring hope and improvement.





The stock market collapse in 1929 did not have to cause a ten year depression. FDR's Keynesian policies prolonged the economic downturn. He did essentially everything wrong. Obama's policies are like deja vu all over again.

I recommend Amity Shlaes' great book "The Forgotten Man" for its detailed account of how FDR's economic policies made a bad situation far worse.

From American Thinker.com:

The New Deal was the largest real-world test of the Keynesian Myth in recent history. Franklin Roosevelt's Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau confessed that the "New Deal" was a failure in sworn testimony before Congress on May 9, 1939.
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work."

And FDR's Treasury Secretary also told Congress:
"I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started. ... And an enormous debt to boot!"

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/...economics.html Originally Posted by joe bloe
joe bloe's Avatar
You are correct that the 1929 market collapse did not need to cause a 10 year depression if we had been smarter.

I will have a look at the book you mentioned, but it was actually Hoover's policies that made a very bad situation even worse. He was the one who did everything wrong.

. . .It is a rather sad commentary that it took World War II to get us out of the economic mess, but FDR's policies did bring hope and improvement.
Originally Posted by Fast Gunn
Hoover's economic policies were actually very similar to FDR's. People assume that Hoover and FDR must have been polar opposites on economics; they weren't. FDR continued the increases in federal spending begun under Hoover, after the stock market collapse, and accelerated them. The economy did not fully recover until after WWII. The Republicans took control of both houses in 1946 and began to implement market based economics instead of the failed Keynesian policies of FDR and Hoover.

What we needed after the 1929 collapse was to cut taxes, cut regulations and cut spending. Calvin Coolidge did just that in 1920 after a similar economic downturn and the economy boomed for ten years.

http://foundationsofecon.blogspot.co...keynesian.html

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard96.html

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-...ession-of-1920
  • Tiny
  • 12-26-2012, 09:20 AM
Hoover's economic policies were actually very similar to FDR's. People assume that Hoover and FDR must have been polar opposites on economics; they weren't. FDR continued the increases in federal spending begun under Hoover, after the stock market collapse, and accelerated them. The economy did not fully recover until after WWII. The Republicans took control of both houses in 1946 and began to implement market based economics instead of the failed Keynesian policies of FDR and Hoover.

What we needed after the 1929 collapse was to cut taxes, cut regulations and cut spending. Calvin Coolidge did just that in 1920 after a similar economic downturn and the economy boomed for ten years.
Originally Posted by joe bloe
I haven't studied the great depression, but what you're describing sounds like de ja vu all over again, with Bush and Obama. The problem this time around is that I don't know if enough Republicans who believe in market based economics will come along to fix things. Looking at the demographics and voting patterns, the country may be Democrat for decades to come, until something happens like what's happening in Greece now. And many Republicans, while not as bad as the Democrats, appear willing to run up debt and kick the can down the road to the next generation.
CCC built a lot of dams ect and kept a lot of people from starving...
CCC built a lot of dams ect and kept a lot of people from starving... Originally Posted by i'va biggen
Those do not count in Bloehardville!
joe bloe's Avatar
I haven't studied the great depression, but what you're describing sounds like de ja vu all over again, with Bush and Obama. The problem this time around is that I don't know if enough Republicans who believe in market based economics will come along to fix things. Looking at the demographics and voting patterns, the country may be Democrat for decades to come, until something happens like what's happening in Greece now. And many Republicans, while not as bad as the Democrats, appear willing to run up debt and kick the can down the road to the next generation. Originally Posted by Tiny
I don't think the economic mess we're in is fixable, at this point, because of the politics. In order to fix our problem, we must cut entitlement spending substantially. That requires getting millions of voters to support cutting their own benefits. That's not going to happen.

If America recovers from the economic nightmare we've gotten ourselves into it will be from the ashes. I doubt I'll live to see it.

Our massive debt of 222 trillion dollars can not be paid. Hyperinflation is unavoidable. Things are going to get much much worse before they get better and that's not going to be anytime soon.
Fast Gunn's Avatar
Damn! What a pessimistic attitude!

Of course the economic situation we're in is fixable.

This country has been in crisis much worse than this and recovered.

. . . We need more optimism to find the solutions rather than pessimism to wallow in the problems.





I don't think the economic mess we're in is fixable, at this point, because of the politics. In order to fix our problem, we must cut entitlement spending substantially. That requires getting millions of voters to support cutting their own benefits. That's not going to happen.

If America recovers from the economic nightmare we've gotten ourselves into it will be from the ashes. I doubt I'll live to see it.

Our massive debt of 222 trillion dollars can not be paid. Hyperinflation is unavoidable. Things are going to get much much worse before they get better and that's not going to be anytime soon. Originally Posted by joe bloe
WTF's Avatar
  • WTF
  • 12-26-2012, 10:16 AM
Damn! What a pessimistic attitude!

Of course the economic situation we're in is fixable.

This country has been in crisis much worse than this and recovered.

. . . We need more optimism to find the solutions rather than pessimism to wallow in the problems.
Originally Posted by Fast Gunn


They (Chicken Little's) been talking about hyperinflaction since Obama was elected. FOUR years ago. Hasn't happened. You'd think at some point, they'd quit buying ammo and pull their heads out of their asses!
The author of the article linked in the opening post correctly notes that the Republican congressional caucus is dysfunctional and in disarray. However, he forgot to note that the same is true of Pelosi's Democratic caucus. After all, that's why it got landslided out of office in 2010. It certainly wasn't because people forgot the malfeasance of the Republican Party during the early-to-middle part of the '00s.

The current debate over the fiscal cliff is a national embarrassment. It's simply ridiculous. Very few of these people (in either party) are remotely serious about confronting real problems in any meaningful way. All their actions are geared toward scoring political points. No one in a leadership position gives a damn about putting the nation's fisc on a sustainable course. And no one will, at least not until the onset of a crisis that can no longer be papered over or swept under the carpet. The U.S. is a nation adrift with no responsible leadership.

Republicans need to acknowledge that tax revenue is going to need to be increased. Democrats need to drop the pretense that raising taxes only on the top two percent would do all that much to reduce the size of the deficit, and also need to admit that entitlement reform is absolutely essential.

But I think what we'll probably see is a gimmicky "deal" allowing Obama to declare some sort of victory, and House Republicans to claim to their base voters that they've capitulated in the politically least disadvantageous way. Then there will be a countdown to the next "fiscal cliff" or debt ceiling standoff. Wash, rinse, repeat!

Actually, there is a fair amount of evidence that suggests that FDR's policies, far from ending the Great Depression, prolonged it far beyond its normal lifetime, and made it much, much worse.


There is no doubt at all that World War II is what ended it. Originally Posted by Sidewinder
A drastic monetary contraction, along with bad economic policies pushed through by both Hoover and FDR, prolonged and worsened the Great Depression.

When a large number of banks failed during the early years of the Depression, the money supply fell by about one-third. If that had not been allowed to happen, the Depression would have only been a more or less ordinary recession. (Of course, the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act triggered a trade war and compounded our problems in the early 1930s.)

Hoover is sometimes mistakenly portrayed as a laissez-faire "conservative" who did nothing while the economy burned. But the opposite was the case. Federal spending increased by over 40% during his four years in office, and he crammed through big tax increases on businesses and high incomes. One thing that's quite ironic is that during the 1932 campaign, Roosevelt lambasted Hoover for what he characterized as the latter's reckless spending.

At least with respect to the fact that sustained economic growth had resumed, the Great Depression's "second act" (the 1937-38 downturn, caused by the Federal Reserve's monetary tightening by way of a doubling of bank reserve requirements) was over by midyear 1938. World War II did not "end" the Great Depression, at least not in the sense that most of us were taught. A common misconception is that during the 1930s we simply failed to spend enough money to create sufficient aggregate demand to lift us out of the Depression, and only the massive spending connected with the war effort was able to do the trick. That's just absolute nonsense. For contrast, look at the response to the severe deflationary downturn of 1920-21:

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...-state-senator

What we needed after the 1929 collapse was to cut taxes, cut regulations and cut spending. Calvin Coolidge did just that in 1920 after a similar economic downturn and the economy boomed for ten years. Originally Posted by joe bloe
The burdens of taxation, government spending, and regulation were actually very light in 1929. There have been times when lightening them has been an appropriate prescription, but it should be obvious that it's not always and everywhere the proper course. In fact, a lack of effective regulation was one of the problems at the time. That's why Glass-Steagall was passed in 1933. As I noted above, the proper response to the crisis would have involved a monetary policy response to the deflationary money supply collapse.

And Coolidge "did just that" in 1920? Wow. Surely a few people sitting around in Boston must be trying to figure out how a Massachusetts governor can wield that much control over federal government policy! (Wilson was president in 1920. Coolidge assumed office after Harding's death in 1923.)

Anyone interested in learning more about factors that caused and prolonged the Depression are encouraged to google up some of the stuff written by professors Cole and Ohanian. They have produced a lot of good work on the issue.

...Hyperinflation is unavoidable... Originally Posted by joe bloe
No it isn't.

Episodes of hyperinflation have all been associated with the collapse of an economy's foundation, genarally following events such as wartime devastation or other catastrophes causing massive capital flight. For instance, Germany after World War I and Hungary after World War II were burdened with impossible-to-meet reparations impositions, and didn't have much left in the way of productive capacity. Comparisons of our situation to cases like those are even more inapt than comparisons of our fiscal condition to that of Greece, which doesn't have a productive economy and connot borrow in its own currency.

That's not to say that we don't face plenty of problems; we obviously do. It's just that hyperinflation is not likely to be one of them. I think there's a fair chance that at some point down the road, we could have more inflation than we'd like. But the dollar will not collapse into virtual worthlessness.

A likely outcome, in my view, is that we'll muddle through a long period of slow growth as policy makers grapple with how to digest an entrenched, much higher level of government spending. The period of deleveraging is far from over, and may last for a number of years. And that's disinflationary.

2013 is likely to feature a number of vicious political battles.

Happy New Year!
I don't think Originally Posted by joe bloe
I want to thank Joe the Bloehard for his open and frank confession that he "don't think."

We have know it all along but it is always nice to hear it from the horses mouth!
CuteOldGuy's Avatar
We have know it all along but it is always nice to hear it from the horses mouth! Originally Posted by bigtex
It is a refreshing change from hearing from the other end of the horse when you post, BigTurd!