There are some STUPID FUCKS on this board and there are some smart ones, too!

Blue, you're so off course you need a compass. It would take hours of time I don't want to spend tonight righting your ship.

Koch Industries is the second largest privately-held corporation in the U.S. It is WAY more than pipelines and refineries but maybe they could use some of their Brawny Paper towels to clean up the $30 million they've been fined by the EPA in the last decade. Also, you're wrong again in saying they are creating American jobs at anything like the rate they are getting rid of them. Koch Industries employs approximately 15% FEWER workers worldwide and in the U.S. than they did a decade ago while their revenues have increased. You may compliment their business acumen but I would disagree and say it is partly because of their purchase of deregulation and avoidance of righteous fines. There are numerous other flesh-removing techniques that they and other U.S.businesses use while many other countries are building infrastructure and manufacturing capability.

You cite the regulatory environment as though striving for cleaner air is some sort of penalty thrust upon innocent corporations who always look out for the planet. How freaking naive is that?

You seem to have that corporate speak mentality tha screams "Well, if we don't cut down the rain forests, the Chinese will beat us to it!"

Most of your party cannot see past the nose on its face.

Virtual extinction of the North Atlantic Bluefin Tuna is predicted to occur NEXT FREAKING YEAR because we loves us some Sushi. Yes! The breeding population of they Bluefin Tuna in the North Atlantic where the "best" and fattiest sushi is caught will no longer have enough tuna for them to even find each other to mater, much less reproduce enough fry to make it past natural oceanic predation.

I never denied technological advances affected labor and you never opined about the effect the two breadwinner difference made (on the chart you attacked) in the wealth or lack thereof in today's middle class.

You SHOULD care about the history of the Kochs and their predecessors since that sort of ignorance is one of the many factors that allows them to continue the fascist ideology they were taught and that they espouse today. Our country becomes more and more like Mussolini's definition of fascism every - a marriage of government and corporations.

The Kochs spent $100,000.00 to kill clean water bills in California alone and they are KNOWN to have contributed $32,000,000.00+ to political causes through fake front groups last year. I am reasonably certain that figure found none of the "soft money" they used in 2010 either.

Carter and Reagan were the last Presidents to run for that office on public funding. We need that again. we need money and habitul re-election OUT of politics but especially out of Congress and the Presidency!

The income disparity doesn't bother me personally. What is shows is that the wealthiest, now that the Supreme Court has created corporate personhood, can buy whatever government they want.

I am against that corruption of the constitution!

I also hope that Perry will soon prove to me that corporations ARE people by EXECUTING one. Then I'll set about seeing if I can get them all convicted of capital crimes. Until then, I will view corporate personhood as the biggest threat to freedom and to the health of this planet we'll see in our lifetime.

I still said nothing about fairness in case anyone is keeping score.

What is so fucking amusing to me is I'm sitting here wondering how many of your right wingers who are struggling to find explanations for this are the very one who get fucked in the system that it portrays. I wonder how many are in the top 20 percentile? How many lower? How many in the top 1 percentile, etc.? But I'd all but guarantee that many who are searching and scratching for justifications for the unjustifiable are the very ones who are getting fucked in the lower 80 percentiles. The ability of the Republican Party to get those who are economically disadvantaged by their policies to make their fights for them is nothing short of incredible to me.

I justify my working against these policies, despite being above the 0.5 percentile but below the 0.1 percentile in income by figuring that I can't continue to prosper unless everybody prospers. What is your justification? Originally Posted by TexTushHog

Word!

Ignoring the only request for your data?

Blue, you're so off course you need a compass. It would take hours of time I don't want to spend tonight righting your ship.

Koch Industries is the second largest privately-held corporation in the U.S. It is WAY more than pipelines and refineries but maybe they could use some of their Brawny Paper towels to clean up the $30 million they've been fined by the EPA in the last decade. Also, you're wrong again in saying they are creating American jobs at anything like the rate they are getting rid of them. Koch Industries employs approximately 15% FEWER workers worldwide and in the U.S. than they did a decade ago while their revenues have increased. You may compliment their business acumen but I would disagree and say it is partly because of their purchase of deregulation and avoidance of righteous fines. There are numerous other flesh-removing techniques that they and other U.S.businesses use while many other countries are building infrastructure and manufacturing capability.

You cite the regulatory environment as though striving for cleaner air is some sort of penalty thrust upon innocent corporations who always look out for the planet. How freaking naive is that?

You seem to have that corporate speak mentality tha screams "Well, if we don't cut down the rain forests, the Chinese will beat us to it!"

Most of your party cannot see past the nose on its face.

Virtual extinction of the North Atlantic Bluefin Tuna is predicted to occur NEXT FREAKING YEAR because we loves us some Sushi. Yes! The breeding population of they Bluefin Tuna in the North Atlantic where the "best" and fattiest sushi is caught will no longer have enough tuna for them to even find each other to mater, much less reproduce enough fry to make it past natural oceanic predation.

I never denied technological advances affected labor and you never opined about the effect the two breadwinner difference made (on the chart you attacked) in the wealth or lack thereof in today's middle class.

You SHOULD care about the history of the Kochs and their predecessors since that sort of ignorance is one of the many factors that allows them to continue the fascist ideology they were taught and that they espouse today. Our country becomes more and more like Mussolini's definition of fascism every - a marriage of government and corporations.

The Kochs spent $100,000.00 to kill clean water bills in California alone and they are KNOWN to have contributed $32,000,000.00+ to political causes through fake front groups last year. I am reasonably certain that figure found none of the "soft money" they used in 2010 either.

Carter and Reagan were the last Presidents to run for that office on public funding. We need that again. we need money and habitul re-election OUT of politics but especially out of Congress and the Presidency!

The income disparity doesn't bother me personally. What is shows is that the wealthiest, now that the Supreme Court has created corporate personhood, can buy whatever government they want.

I am against that corruption of the constitution!

I also hope that Perry will soon prove to me that corporations ARE people by EXECUTING one. Then I'll set about seeing if I can get them all convicted of capital crimes. Until then, I will view corporate personhood as the biggest threat to freedom and to the health of this planet we'll see in our lifetime.

I still said nothing about fairness in case anyone is keeping score. Originally Posted by Little Stevie

Let's focus on the chart's The left side never actually states the average income. Only the right. I wonder if that could be misleading. Second, I am an independent, have never registered with any party, consider mysel largely libertarian and pragmatic. The chart mentions nothing about two breadwinners so I will wait for your explanation of that.
As for Koch, I would guess that the net contribution in jobs and taxes from their investment and risk taking far outweighs the negative. And when you consider taxes, you have to consider the personal income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes of every employee who draws a check from their companies. Not just the company itself. Personally I do not believe that any corporate entity should pay taxes. All of it should be pass through. Eliminate most deductions. Only allow mortgage interest or property taxes to a certain amount (say no mortgage interest on a loan over $250,000) This is a libertarian view mixed with a pragmatic approach that we need income.

Given the current printing press going on, I will go out on a limb and make a prediction. (I do have one economics degree and one math degree so I feel somewhat qualified.) If Obama is re-elected (or Congress (both Democratic and Republican) ) do not cut our current spending level by over 30% in the next 4 years and resolve Medicare (likely by dissolving most of it), we will either have to do Greece/Sweden or Hong Kong by 2025.

For almost 40 years, mainstream economists argued that the absolute size of our debt did not matter, on the the relative size of the interest payments to GDP. As long as that stayed at less than 2%, the debt wasn't a problem. Anyone wanting Clinton back may need to look closer at how Clinton "achieved" his surplus. Largely cuts in defense, CIA, and security infrastructure. But that's another story.

Also, what is the problem with China having a bigger economy than us? They have 4 times the number of people and largely are following a deregulated (Hong Kong) business model. They have a lot of room to grow before then start hitting their business cycle.

So which do you want, Austerity (very very high taxes on the wealthy, no job growth, cuts in services (read "Parliament of Whores" for this)) in order to pay down some debt. Or the Hong Kong model where government gets out the way and lets Adam Smith take over. The British did this at the end of WWII because the British wanted all their capital re-invested at home. They 99% deregulated Hong Kong. A city-state with no natural resources, no inherent wealth. What happened? According to the people who want more government involvement and more regulations and more protections, Hong Kong shouldn't exist. But it thrives and the Chinese are taking the Hong Kong playbook and using it everywhere in China.

It doesn't mean there is not rule of law, it only means that the government stays out of the places it is not absolutely needed.

Given the current path, (and I never said that any Republican candidate would be better than Obama, only that we know what Obama will do), we will have to either become avowed socialist under austerity or avowed capitalists with very little government withing 15 years. (Someone call me in 15 years and let me know. I will be living in Betanzos. Sipping fine wine. Smoking cubanos.

Wow, you guys are something else. Don't you see what is going on here? We don't have a capitalist system, we have a corporatist system, where government is funneling huge amounts of cash to the ruling elite. Reagan did it, both Bushes did it, Clinton did it and now Obama is continuing it. The goal is to eliminate the middle class, and leave us with a ruling plutocracy and a mass of laborers.

Obama is the most open about it, campaigning for higher taxes on the middle class, those making $200K or more. He's saying "The elitist class is closed, and if you're not in now, you won't get here."

The answer isn't more regulation, it's more freedom, more disclosure and more transparency, and a tax system that doesn't punish achievement.

Wow, you guys are something else. Don't you see what is going on here? We don't have a capitalist system, we have a corporatist system, where government is funneling huge amounts of cash to the ruling elite. Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Absolutely true on both accounts. However, at least for now, the Democrats are less corporate oriented than the Republicans, at least by a small amount. And they don't give a shit what you do in your bedroom.

So the Democrats are better because they rob fewer banks. Ok, that makes sense, I suppose. We should all be Democrats because they are destroying us at a slightly slower rate than the Republicans. Makes sense.

I have an idea, let's dump both parties, and start promoting liberty again.

phuckers..... Originally Posted by MrGiz

what a twit... Originally Posted by MrGiz

And you are still a ZERO! Originally Posted by MrGiz

First, I never resort to name calling because it makes those who do just look like silly children on a playground. Originally Posted by blue3122

Hey Mr. Giz, are you gonna take that from this guy?

Well, in their defense, they probably think Columbia and Harvard are medrassas. The dumb shits. Originally Posted by TexTushHog

careful, the teanuts r gonna start calling them socialist medrasses. lol

I see what is going on; call it Corporate or Crony Capitalism; a system in which big government works very well with big business, picking the winners and losers. And the solution isn't more Obamanomics (Green energy fiascos, Wall Street bailouts, Corporate insiders in the WH, Union Thugs getting access, etc.). That is just more Crony Capitalism !

The solution is Tea Party Conservative policiy; smaller government, lower taxes, less regulations, more federalism (states rights). But too many people think government should be their nanny; give them handouts, keep them happy on the plantation, tell them what to do, how to think, and what they can say and not say!

It is more difficult for big business to operate when they have to go to 50 state houses to get their agendas approved. Citizens have more control over outcomes when power is reduced in Washington and given back to the States and local communities.

Wow, you guys are something else. Don't you see what is going on here? We don't have a capitalist system, we have a corporatist system, where government is funneling huge amounts of cash to the ruling elite. Reagan did it, both Bushes did it, Clinton did it and now Obama is continuing it. The goal is to eliminate the middle class, and leave us with a ruling plutocracy and a mass of laborers.

Obama is the most open about it, campaigning for higher taxes on the middle class, those making $200K or more. He's saying "The elitist class is closed, and if you're not in now, you won't get here."

The answer isn't more regulation, it's more freedom, more disclosure and more transparency, and a tax system that doesn't punish achievement. Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

+1

So the Democrats are better because they rob fewer banks. Ok, that makes sense, I suppose. We should all be Democrats because they are destroying us at a slightly slower rate than the Republicans. Makes sense.

I have an idea, let's dump both parties, and start promoting liberty again. Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

It is more difficult for big business [or any other interest group] to operate when they have to go to 50 state houses to get their agendas approved. Citizens have more control over outcomes when power is reduced in Washington and given back to the States and local communities. Originally Posted by Whirlaway

+1 Repeal the 17th Amendment

The solution is Tea Party Conservative policiy;
Originally Posted by Whirlaway

That's beyond laughable. An astro-turf faux populist movement brought to you by the Koch brothers will reign in the corporations. They should lock people up who believe shit like this in an insane asylum.

That's beyond laughable. An astro-turf faux populist movement brought to you by the Koch brothers will reign in the corporations. They should lock people up who believe shit like this in an insane asylum. Originally Posted by TexTushHog

I leave for a couple of days and the room temperature IQ people are all over this with the same "points" they have used for months! Thanks for calling a spade a spade, TTH!

COG and TTH really have a better grasp than most but COG's tendency toward tearing down and starting over instead of trying to overhaul what we have is asking for a century's worth of rebuilding even following the Constitution and the planet under zero regulation won't last that long for the more evolved species.