Biological Male Boxers Fighting Women In The Olympics.

In another time before chromosome testing these athletes would be given a pass because they have female genitalia. It’s not like these women are trying to cheat the system. They were born girls, raised as women and are just trying to compete as the sex they were raised with.

Biology doesn’t just mean sex determination. It also has to do with reach, height, weight, oxygen efficiency, etc. etc. Originally Posted by txdot-guy

The fact that we couldn't do chromosome testing in the past doesn't mean that we should ignore it now that we can. The intent of the trans participants is meaningless. If you run me over with your car it doesn't matter so much if you meant to or not.
Being socialised as a woman doesn't negate the inherent advantage confered on those who go through puberty as a chromosomal male. Human's sex is fixed at fertilization. Every characteristic you mention is downstream from that.

Try reading this.

https://www.nas.org/academic-questio...-and-immutable

The fact that we couldn't do chromosome testing in the past doesn't mean that we should ignore it now that we can. The intent of the trans participants is meaningless. If you run me over with your car it doesn't matter so much if you meant to or not.
Being socialised as a woman doesn't negate the inherent advantage confered on those who go through puberty as a chromosomal male. Human's sex is fixed at fertilization. Every characteristic you mention is downstream from that.

Try reading this.

https://www.nas.org/academic-questio...-and-immutable Originally Posted by Ducbutter

It’s not their intent that matters. You can’t describe this as a choice that either of these women made. I can’t imagine putting in the effort and sacrifice these women made to become olympic athletes just to be told by some dude in a lab coat that they are not women. How screwed up is that. I am just glad that you are not the one making the rules.

When the article says stuff like this, "The problem is that biological sex is more of a spectrum than a duality." it is denying the biological realities of mammalian reproduction and can't be taken seriously.

Follow the link to learn about the science of sex/gender:

https://www.nas.org/academic-questio...-and-immutable Originally Posted by Ducbutter

What else? Go beyond the quick cherry pick to invalidate everything else.

Is he wrong about the history?

Is he wrong about de la Chapele? Do you argue de la Chapele's credentials? He's a big part of the reason that major sporting bodies abd associations changed how they look at sex verification

It’s not their intent that matters. You can’t describe this as a choice that either of these women made. I can’t imagine putting in the effort and sacrifice these women made to become olympic athletes just to be told by some dude in a lab coat that they are not women. How screwed up is that. I am just glad that you are not the one making the rules. Originally Posted by txdot-guy

In a world of imperfect solutions, mine has a negative impact on far fewer people than yours does. You will erase women from the record books of sport. Congrats.

What else? Go beyond the quick cherry pick to invalidate everything else.

Is he wrong about the history?

Is he wrong about de la Chapele? Do you argue de la Chapele's credentials? He's a big part of the reason that major sporting bodies abd associations changed how they look at sex verification Originally Posted by HDGristle

No, when you deny the science at the outset, I don't trust that there will be an honest recounting or interpretation of the history.
Have a good day.

You will erase women from the record books of sport. Congrats. Originally Posted by Ducbutter

Maybe it’s already happened and we just don’t know it. Does it really matter?

Maybe it’s already happened and we just don’t know it. Does it really matter? Originally Posted by txdot-guy

Don't! Let them distract you! ...

Does it really matter? Originally Posted by txdot-guy

Snick!

No, when you deny the science at the outset, I don't trust that there will be an honest recounting or interpretation of the history.
Have a good day. Originally Posted by Ducbutter

Not really about what you trust. Do you trust de la Chapele?

Are you aware of any cases where a person with XY chromosomes was able to conceive and give birth?

It's happened. Which is why stopping at XX vs XY and considering no other evidence or discussion is pretty damn silly

The most foolproof method of testing is to look at the participants gametes. If they are small and motile it's a male, if they're large and stationary they're female. The structure of the gonads indicate what type of sex cell they would produce, in the case of sterility. It's more invasive testing than a simple chromosome test that works for greater than 99% of folks on the planet.
The Swyer syndrome you described is exceedingly rare to begin with (0.00125%) and only effects women. It also gives them no physical advantages over "normal" male competitors.
Chromosome testing is not perfect but the percentage of people it doesn't work for approaches zero.

What exactly is the fear here. That men will undergo sex reassignment surgery to become women just to compete in female sports. That sounds pretty ridiculous to me.

If you remove those born as men from the equation the resulting population born as women who may have xy chromosomes is so minuscule as to be considered statistically insignificant. I think that this is only a problem because those opposed to trans people in general want it to be an issue. A cause that they can rally around to espouse their bigotry.

The most foolproof method of testing is to look at the participants gametes. If they are small and motile it's a male, if they're large and stationary they're female. The structure of the gonads indicate what type of sex cell they would produce, in the case of sterility. It's more invasive testing than a simple chromosome test that works for greater than 99% of folks on the planet.
The Swyer syndrome you described is exceedingly rare to begin with (0.00125%) and only effects women. It also gives them no physical advantages over "normal" male competitors.
Chromosome testing is not perfect but the percentage of people it doesn't work for approaches zero. Originally Posted by Ducbutter

Male competitors? Or female competitors? Or both?

Do you consider 46,XY in general to be female?

How do you address mosaicism, like in the Croatia mother/daughter?

What exactly is the fear here. That men will undergo sex reassignment surgery to become women just to compete in female sports. That sounds pretty ridiculous to me.

If you remove those born as men from the equation the resulting population born as women who may have xy chromosomes is so minuscule as to be considered statistically insignificant. I think that this is only a problem because those opposed to trans people in general want it to be an issue. A cause that they can rally around to espouse their bigotry. Originally Posted by txdot-guy

There is no fear. Rather, there is knowledge that a certain number of individuals will try to gain a competitive advantage in almost unimmaginable ways. People have injected cancer causing steroids and other chemical cocktails seeking those kinds of advantages. Dylan Mulvaney got a tampon endorsement after getting plastic surgery for fuck's sake. To not think that people will go to extremes in the pursuit of wealth or fame is beyond naiive. One doesn't need sex reassignment surgery to to try to pass as the opposite gender anyway. These kinds of regulation in sports are done to promote a level playing field. They were not devised by right wing transphobes.
As to your point about statistical insignificance, you should take that up with Gristle.
So quit being a misogynist and quit trying to erase women from the record books. (see how that works?)

Male competitors? Or female competitors? Or both?

Do you consider 46,XY in general to be female?

How do you address mosaicism, like in the Croatia mother/daughter? Originally Posted by HDGristle

Yes, gamete identification works universally. I'm beginning to think you don't know anything about human biology.

46xy can be either sex, more commonly female (it's the human default) commonly have fully formed gonads (both M/F). Gamete testing works for them too. Just as it does for mosaicism.

The sum total of all the mutations you mention represents less than 1% of the populace of the human race. And gamete testing would cover them. Simple chromosome testing is fine for over 99% of participants.

Statistical insignificance is delightful and all.

You appear to have 2 women that are statistically insignificant who just medaled. That means regardless of how unlikely that is, you have to confront the reality in the now because we appear to no longer be dealing with a hypothetical.

This is why it would have made sense to read that account of the history.

I asked questions because you said no advantages over "normal" males and tried to clarify whether you meant females. But, despite the childishness you've helped me move this go the point I wanted. So, thank you