Obama's Proposal for free 2 year college Tuition Good Idea or Bad Idea?

Not every student is equal. Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

sounds racist and/or sexist
I thought EVERYONE was special/unique snowflakes?

what people in USA don't seem to grasp, is not everyone deserves everything. Why is everyone allowed to have kids?
Seriously, it is so hard to go through the adoption process, but anyone can have kids, then you gotta force everyone else to pay for them
-kids deserve healthcare
kids deserve food
-kids are so retarded, they need you to slow down so they dont run out in the street like a deer.
no longer do we have "survival of the fitesst." now the peope who don't do jack, are passing on their genes many times, while the people who have intelligence/dont need money from the guberment, arent
Idiocracy shows this well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icmRCixQrx8

*Pic removed - JCM

Well, at one time we had a somewhat mandatory 2 years of military service here in the U.S. It was called "the draft". I was politely asked to spend 2 years in the army (almost got drafted into the marines) without an option to decline the invitation. Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

and they need a fat tax
thin/lean people dont spend as much in healthcare
it's save us all at least a Billion dollas if we passed a law taxing fatties

no kidding
but no one wants to blame themselves
kids/parents want to blame the teahers/schools, but what is important is how a child spends their time not in school
besides, learning crap in school is mostly retarded

just watch jeporday or read cracked.com
In a perfect world, these are the courses they should have made us take:

1. Doing Your Taxes 101
2. Internships: A Modern Slavery
3. Making Friends As An Adult
4. The Ins and Outs of a Mortgage
5. Cleanliness and You: The Study of Personal Hygiene
6. The Convergence of Love And Sex
7. Interpreting Family Relationships
8. The Normalization of Drug Dependency
9. How To Date Many People Before Committing To Marriage
10. Adult-Onset Body Image Issues
11. Balancing A Work Life and A Social Life
12. The Wonders of Travel
13. Career Change in Unstable Economies
14. Understanding Divorce
15. Kindness: A Gentle Analysis
16. Healthy Meal Planning
17. The Struggles of Depression
18. The Realities of Single Parenthood
19. Body Maintenance
20. The Glorification of Alcohol
21. Finance Organization
22. The Exploration of Alternative Lifestyles
23. Managing Unemployment
24. Dealing With Emotional Unavailability
25. The Importance of Debt
26. Child Development — yes, this exists, IN CHILD STUDIES PROGRAMS, but everyone needs this course.
27. The Effects of Grief
28. Maintaining A Savings Account
29. Elderly Planning
30. http://www.cracked.com/article_18611...in-school.html

Originally Posted by bigcockpussylicker

I agree. K-12 is weighted down with too many nonsensical, "touch-feely-feel-good" courses; however, Geometry isn't one of those courses. When I worked in oil field, the Pythagorean theorem served me well for computing the length a riser needed to be to reach from an underground pipeline to a tank flange.

The crime is the "99%ers" who graduate from college who can't find a job in their major or the job pays so low that it doesn't justify the cost of college. This isn't just "Social Work" majors. Later this year you'll find PetE's who spent the last 6 years in college with a pretty good GPA have trouble finding a good job.
. Originally Posted by gnadfly

no idea what a PetE is?

I saw a 20/20 show that followed a gal after college trying to find a job
It was a slow moving "documentary" showing how she could NOT find a job or even a paid internship
Near the end, she had to get a job that was not using her $100K degree.,
Her degree was in fashion design.

I agree. K-12 is weighted down with too many nonsensical, "touch-feely-feel-good" courses; however, Geometry isn't one of those courses. When I worked in oil field, the Pythagorean theorem served me well for computing the length a riser needed to be to reach from an underground pipeline to a tank flange. Originally Posted by I B Hankering

I took french/german/spanish in middle school. Spanish in high school.

Why?

What we need in school is easy, what are the other kids learning?(math/science. not PE or social studies)
are they learning gym or "retarded health class"?
the usa usually tests lowest in sciences/math, even though we spend more

That what this "pay for CC" is,. throwing money at a problem thinking it will solve it
it won't
Here is one chart showing money does not solve education




so why can't get kids go to CC on their own?
why did they fail high school, yet suddenly they will ace cc?
If I recall,they had a free public school education, why do we need to spend more money to see them fail more?

and they need a fat tax
thin/lean people dont spend as much in healthcare
it's save us all at least a Billion dollas if we passed a law taxing fatties Originally Posted by bigcockpussylicker

Agreed! Obesity is huge burden on healthcare. More and more every year. Goods high in sugar and fat should be taxed like alcohol and cigarettes. No question.

As far as required military service, the draft was different right? Because weren't you required to stay for an indefinite amount of time and only drafted during war-time? I'm talking about programs like Denmark and Sweden have where the men are required to serve two years in the military before going to college. I may be wrong, but I think I remember that is how they do it. In Israel, both men and women are required to serve two years. I agree with that completely! I wish we had similar systems here. Then ya, "free" two year college for everyone. No problem. Better yet make it an option... Give people a choice on whether they want to join the military for a free education. What's that you say???? We already have a program like that?????? Well fuck me...

And as far as why education is failing in America... Two words: Teacher's Union. That would be the reason for all the spending and still no results. The unions demand the spending and then keep doing a shitty job because they have almost no risk of losing it. Its damn near impossible to fire an incompetent public school educator from what I have heard.

Agreed! Obesity is huge burden on healthcare. More and more every year. Goods high in sugar and fat should be taxed like alcohol and cigarettes. No question.

As far as required military service, the draft was different right? Because weren't you required to stay for an indefinite amount of time and only drafted during war-time? I'm talking about programs like Denmark and Sweden have where the men are required to serve two years in the military before going to college. I may be wrong, but I think I remember that is how they do it. In Israel, both men and women are required to serve two years. I agree with that completely! I wish we had similar systems here. Then ya, "free" two year college for everyone. No problem. Better yet make it an option... Give people a choice on whether they want to join the military for a free education. What's that you say???? We already have a program like that?????? Well fuck me...

And as far as why education is failing in America... Two words: Teacher's Union. That would be the reason for all the spending and still no results. The unions demand the spending and then keep doing a shitty job because they have almost no risk of losing it. Its damn near impossible to fire an incompetent public school educator from what I have heard. Originally Posted by thathottnurse

You are wrong. Men who were drafted were required to serve for a mandatory period of time. RE: education -- Teacher Unions aren't the problem. It's litigious parents and lawyers who are the real problem. Today's Teacher Unions are merely a byproduct of a bureaucratic, CYA system that's constantly beset with a barrage of petty-ass lawsuits from litigious parents and ambulance chasing lawyers. Teacher Unions protect teachers from frivolous lawsuits; whereas, CYA administrators would sooner fire a teacher than properly deal with said lawsuits.

You really want to improve education? Get the federal government out. There is NO authority in the Constitution allowing the Feds to get involved in education. That is SOLELY a state and local issue.

As far as required military service, the draft was different right? Because weren't you required to stay for an indefinite amount of time and only drafted during war-time? I'm talking about programs like Denmark and Sweden have where the men are required to serve two years in the military before going to college. I may be wrong, but I think I remember that is how they do it. In Israel, both men and women are required to serve two years. I agree with that completely! I wish we had similar systems here. Then ya, "free" two year college for everyone. No problem. Better yet make it an option... Give people a choice on whether they want to join the military for a free education. What's that you say???? We already have a program like that?????? Well fuck me...
Originally Posted by thathottnurse

Untrue. The draft was in place at all times until 1973. What I am not sure of without doing research on it would be the odds of being drafted say in the mid 50s. When I was drafted the odds were I that I would be drafted.

From 1940 until 1973, during both peacetime and periods of conflict, men were drafted to fill vacancies in the armed forces which could not be filled through voluntary means. The draft was ended when the United States military moved to an all-volunteer military force.

You are wrong. Men who were drafted were required to serve for a mandatory period of time. Originally Posted by I B Hankering

How can I be wrong when I was asking a question? I asked, "Because weren't you required to stay for an indefinite amount of time and only drafted during war-time?"

I could see how it might have been read as a statement though. I honestly am not sure and haven't looked it up but will now.

RE: education -- Teacher Unions aren't the problem. It's litigious parents and lawyers who are the real problem. Today's Teacher Unions are merely a byproduct of a bureaucratic, CYA system that's constantly beset with a barrage of petty-ass lawsuits from litigious parents and ambulance chasing lawyers. Teacher Unions protect teachers from frivolous lawsuits; whereas, CYA administrators would sooner fire a teacher than properly deal with said lawsuits. Originally Posted by I B Hankering

I find this really hard to believe. That can't possibly be true. Lawsuits? Really? I thought teachers unions were started in the early 1900s to try and improve school conditions, get teachers actual pay rather than room and board and beef up child labor laws so kids could go to school instead of work. All good things. But the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction and schools are now suffering because of union greed.

Untrue. The draft was in place at all times until 1973. What I am not sure of without doing research on it would be the odds of being drafted say in the mid 50s. When I was drafted the odds were I that I would be drafted.

From 1940 until 1973, during both peacetime and periods of conflict, men were drafted to fill vacancies in the armed forces which could not be filled through voluntary means. The draft was ended when the United States military moved to an all-volunteer military force. Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

I believe I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is that I think there is a mandatory 2yr military service call for ever person who turns 18 (Israel) or every man that turns 18 (Sweden & Denmark), regardless of peacetime or vacancies in their armed forces. Its not so much of a draft as it is a right of passage and requirement as a citizen of their counties.

Edit: I just read where Sweden abolished their compulsory military service in July 2010.

I still am not seeing how long the US draft commitment was. Was it 2yrs? 4yrs? Or indefinite (til the government said you could go home)?

I find this really hard to believe. That can't possibly be true. Lawsuits? Really? I thought teachers unions were started in the early 1900s to try and improve school conditions, get teachers actual pay rather than room and board and beef up child labor laws so kids could go to school instead of work. All good things. But the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction and schools are now suffering because of union greed. Originally Posted by thathottnurse

It was a qualified statement: "today's Teacher Unions". Yes, unions do organize for collective bargaining, and I am not an advocate for what Wisconsin had: mandatory, automatic deductions from a teacher's publicly funded salary flowing into union coffers. The fact remains, however, teachers cannot risk or afford to be without a union. The chance of litigation is high and the cost of litigation is high.

Here's an example: two years ago, a teacher at a local school wouldn't admit a student into her classroom because he was wearing his trousers below his buttocks. He shoved her out of the way in an attempt to get into the classroom, and she grabbed him by his shirt and pushed him back into the hallway. The boy's mother (who learned of the incident via proscribed cellphone use) filed a claim of child abuse with the local police, and the teacher was arrested and taken off campus. The teacher's union sent a lawyer to represent her, and she was quickly released from jail. Nevertheless, the local school board (wanting to wash its hands of the whole affair: CYA) refused to let her return to work. The union lawyer also filed counter-charges against the mother, the police and the school board for false arrest and reinstatement rights. The teacher won, and she was reinstated. Subsequently, the parent of the errant child was arrested for filing false charges, and the school board yielded and rightfully let the teacher return to work. After all, the teacher was enforcing the school board's dress code policy when the altercation started.

Consider also, why do you think most schools have eliminated recess? It's because, schools cannot afford the lawsuits from the injuries that inevitably occur on playgrounds.

I still am not seeing how long the US draft commitment was. Was it 2yrs? 4yrs? Or indefinite (til the government said you could go home)? Originally Posted by thathottnurse

It varied. During WWII, it was for duration. During the Vietnam, it was a basic two year stint. However, special training, e.g., language training, could add time to the length of service required.

I took french/german/spanish in middle school. Spanish in high school.

Why?

What we need in school is easy, what are the other kids learning?(math/science. not PE or social studies)
are they learning gym or "retarded health class"?
the usa usually tests lowest in sciences/math, even though we spend more

That what this "pay for CC" is,. throwing money at a problem thinking it will solve it
it won't
Here is one chart showing money does not solve education

so why can't get kids go to CC on their own?
why did they fail high school, yet suddenly they will ace cc?
If I recall,they had a free public school education, why do we need to spend more money to see them fail more? Originally Posted by bigcockpussylicker

Finland is a good model, but the pupil-teacher ratio is lower (and that is a key factor in education), and educators are highly respected and compensated substantially more in Finland than in the U.S. That said, there are significant differences between the U.S. and Finland, and comparing the two is much akin to comparing apples to oranges.

Finland is held in high esteem by professional educators (not necessarily teachers) for its educational program. Anyone who has visited one of the Nordic states, and remained there for a period of time, would immediately recognize there are several differences between the Nordic states and the U.S. The Nordic states are not known as cultural “melting pots”. The Nordic states teach in one language and do not truly accommodate racial and ethnic diversity.

Finland is also considered one of the most ethnically homogenous nations in the world: https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/fi.html. Finland requires immigrant students to learn the Finnish language before “placing” them in the appropriate grade. The Nordic states focus on core curriculums that do not give credit for “feel good” classes like those now proliferating American schools.

“Much of Finland's success has been attributed to the high prestige associated with being a teacher and the fact that it is as hard for Finns to win a place on a teacher training course as it is for them to get into law or medical school.

“But another aspect of Finland's success – getting children whose first language is not Finnish up to the high standards of their classmates – appears to have been overlooked by the education tourists. For example, 'Anastasia, Artur, Kevin and Arthur stay in their class of four with a teacher and teaching assistant for 25 hours a week – for every subject except sports and arts. It can be anything between six months and a year before they are judged to have mastered Finnish and are ready to be placed into their correct year group.'” http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/...grant-children

Finland only requires students to stay in school until students finish the 9th grade. Finland allows would-be 10th graders to enter the work force: the U.S. has child labor laws forbidding this. Professional educators (not necessarily teachers) also are clever in the way they present the story of Finland’s success.

Professional educators love to show how Finland has a low student failure rate: few students repeat the same grade. However, the resources devoted to failing student is the equivalent of a student repeating a grade – more teachers are employed and the students are required to participate in additional, extended school days, weeks and months. The net effect is that the additional resources and time equate, or nearly equate, to a repeated year.

Furthermore, counselors are employed to insure students do not make bad, personal choices regarding their future. Here’s a prominent socialist’s – that is professional educator’s – POV regarding counselors:

“[C]areer guidance and counseling became a compulsory part of the comprehensive school curriculum in all schools. It was assumed at the time that if all pupils remained in the same school until the end of their compulsory education, they would need systematic counseling on their options after completing basic school. Career guidance was intended to minimize the possibility that the students would make inappropriate choices regarding their futures. In principle, students had three options: continue general education in upper secondary general school (which about 51 percent of students do), go on to vocational upper secondary school (which about 42 percent of students do), or find employment.” by Dr. Sahlberg. http://www.aft.org/pdfs/americaneduc...2/Sahlberg.pdf

Note also, only 51% of Finnish students are on track to go on to college; the others are sent on a different career track.

Also note, Finland’s unemployment rate for 15 to 24 year olds is 2% higher than in the U.S. https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...s/2229.html#fi.

BTW, I disagree with your dismissal of "social studies" as unnecessary. Teaching kids that the wheel has already been invented will help direct them towards new ventures. Teaching students about other people and other government and economic systems will enable them to "stand on the shoulders of giants" and see further than those who came before.

Since we've shifted gears...

I agree with the concept of universal service but the mechanics are a problem. Easy to say that everyone has to serve two years but how to do it. You could institute a draft (for both men and women) but then you have to plan for protests, people pulling things to avoid induction (women getting pregnant for that very purpose), and people running away. It no longer becomes universal and in keeping with the American concept of justice. Okay, we put in a sweetner to encourage volunteerism. Like two "free" years of college in return for two years in the military....what about the rich who don't need two "free" years of college. So it is no longer universal again. So you shouldn't be forcing people and you can't bribe everyone with something added....what else can you do? I have mentioned this on more than one occasion and will do so again; I think Robert Heinlein and David Gerrold had it right. Change what it means to be a citizen of this country. A two tier system of citizenship. For most people they wouldn't even notice that they don't have a right to vote (they never use it). Grant the right to vote for only those who have volunteered to serve their country. Give your country two years and you can have a voice and a presence in the future of the country.

At this point someone is asking why do we need universal service. Fair enough. This country had something during and after World War II and that was a shared experience. We were all in it together. We could overlook differences in race because a white man could look at a black man in uniform and he knew that they shared a great many of the same ideas and values. Like taking steel, carbon, and boron and mixing them together under great heat and beating them we can create a special steel for making swords that will last a thousand years. Universal service could be that shared experience. That is just a societal view. It also has a useful purpose of having millions of people ready and able to defend this country if need be. I grew up in a gun culture but when I went to boot camp I saw people that I thought only existed in jokes. People who tried to put the bullet down the barrel of the rifle or people who could not figure out how a bullet got into the magazine for the rifle. A gun person can kneel behind a downed policeman, pick up his weapon, and return fire in an effective manner without any further training. A lot of people can point and shoot but don't know how to aim or more importantly reload. Shooting is a simple part of being a soldier and citizen but factor in things like knowing how to give or take orders, discipline, and hanging tough is something else the military provides.

So, yes..., we need universal service and in return we can give "free" college and/or full citizenship.

Free Tutition for Everyone !

Nothing in this world is free, not ever. More lunacy from the left.
Someone must always pay !

But we already do have free college for military service. Its called the GI Bill. Its as easy as walking into any local recruitment office.

Granted there are some that don't qualify for military duty, but like I said, there are thousands of scholarships and grant programs available out there for just about every type of student. Especially if you are a female or a minority. This "new" idea about free college for everyone is just more oil on the wheels of career politicians. Its bullshit.

Oh ya, and my kids still have recess at their school. What schools don't have recess??? Kids need recess to reset and blow off steam. Especially boys. It helps them focus better in class. At least I think so. Tire them out so they can sit still and learn something.

And be honest, when you got a little older how many of you guys had to jack off during school in order to focus. Of jacked off before doing homework? Guys just need that "recess".

I can tell by reading thru this thread that few if any of you folks have kids who have been in college recently. Filling out the FAISCA will give even the above average income family a lot money in grants and loans. Filling out the Federal Income tax form will recover a lot of the tuition and books cost. Going to community college for any young American isn't a problem with a small amount of support from their parent(s).

. Originally Posted by gnadfly

when did you do a FAISCA last?
that's just not true. where did you get your info?
if you have some money and excellent grades,
you dont get money from the guberment
guberment does rewards good grades, it rewards poor, regardless if you can actually graduate
I am not talking about CC, i mean actual 4yr college