Trump Determined to be a Fraud

Lol geez you really that dumb to think they opened zillow and went with it?

Seems to me that the main fraudsters in the current case are the AG and Judge. Frankly, I don't see their qualifications to determine commercial real estate valuations.

It would appear they used Zillow . com to arrive at their evaluation of up to 19-$24M. However, one must also remember that the same Zillow claimed Trump xfered the property valued at $420M to his son.Then later said ooops, in tiny-small print and updated their website to no fan fare..

And then there are the details. Zillow is showing the property as 5,200-ish square feet in size. Coincidentally, a nearby property of about the same size with 5 bedroom recently sold for $14M and the property adjacent to Mar-a-Lago is a 2 acre tract with no beach access and no improvements (buildings) listed for $200M.

In review, Mar-a-Lago is on 17-20 acres, has water on two sides, with 2 acres of beaches and over 56,000 sq ft, 55 bedrooms, 38 bathrooms and an 1,800 sq ft dinning room, is a commercial parcel (business) and so much more. Oh sure! Probably just typos in the current Zillow listing. Yeah, right!

Regardless, if I were going into a court case involving the valuation of commercial real estate, I would bring in a world renowned and highly successful developer of commercial real estate, ala Donald J Trump, over two dick-head partisan hacks with zero knowledge in real estate or real estate transactions any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Just remember, it is not a bank or insurance company or purchaser of any real estate bringing suit here. It is brought by two dick-head partisan hacks with zero knowledge in real estate or real estate transactions. Originally Posted by FesteredUncle

... Too right, mate!

... No matter WHAT the dopey Judge thinks - do ya really
believe a good appeals court is gonna just let something
like this stand? ... Do they want THE JUDGES to make
business decisions on valuating property?

Just simply disregard what a corporation and the banks
actually place the value at?

... I surely don't .... Too easy to open the courts
to legal liability there.

#### Salty

Lol geez you really that dumb to think they opened zillow and went with it? Originally Posted by royamcr

What source would put the property at that value?

You think they searched MLS to arrive at that? I gave you two, readily available comparables, that took maybe 45 seconds to dig out that clearly demonstrate there is no other road to arrive at a ~$20M valuation. So you go on with your well thought out theory that Zillow coincidentally happens to have the same valuation as the AG and Judge came up with..

Obviously, these things pass you by rather briskly. Now we learn that 80% of their case is expired (statute of limitations) and has been adjudicated by the appellate court months ago as such and the whack-a-doodle judge had to admit as such in court yesterday.

...
... No matter WHAT the dopey Judge thinks - do ya really
believe a good appeals court is gonna just let something
like this stand? Originally Posted by Salty Again

Yes absolutely.

... Do they want THE JUDGES to make
business decisions on valuation Originally Posted by Salty Again

Yep, courts do it in business litigation every day. In a jury trial, a jury does it. In a bench trial, the judge is expected to make and does make the decision.

Just simply disregard what a corporation and the banks
actually place the value at?
Originally Posted by Salty Again

Yep, except they dont “simply disregard”, they rely on the affidavits, testimony and other documemtary evidence to come to a conclusion. Again, happens everyday in courthouses across the US.

Just so you ppl on the right are full of conjecture on the reasons it's ok to say " my property is self appraised at xxx Dollars", the reason the case was already ruled on is that Trump leveraged that against saying the actual value on tax appraisals was less than what he claimed on loan docs. That's bank fraud.

What are some of the benefits of overstating value?

1. lower interest rates

2. Leverage cash out opportunities at REFI so as to be loan proceeds. vs income and hence no income taxes. Typically if you use the loan proceeds for anything other than doing repairs, or investment into the same property, you are subject to it being looked at and considered as potential income.

3. Insurance premiums/ claims written off at a higher cost / and associated fees, again for tax benefits.

4. Keeping debt ratios' down against hedged assets. Skewing the debt ratio low in order to get better rates.

5. In case of default, there could be banks and investors holding the bag; Doral golf course for example is heavily over-leveraged, and has low attendance. The likelyhood of it being ponzi'ed by other Trump investments is probably, and if you were an investor in the bank who lent the money in direct or refinance, you'd be pissed if it went under.

Ask anybody who invested with Bernie Madoff. When you look at why they looking so deeply into Trumps finances, it's exactly for this type of concern. It's really not in question that Trump doesn't follow GAAP, or Generally Accepted Accounting Principles, cause he doesn't. It's also because of that reason that Mazors dropped him as a client.

Finally, you have Trump showing the valuation of a property of Mara lago at 28 MM, vs the actual speculative value of 750 mm. If you cheat the tax man with your Mona Lisa properties, he's gonna come a calling for all that you owe, including back taxes. The problem is that Trumps being doing this so long, that it's beyond the statute of limitations in some cases. Who got hurt here? The tax payers in Florida did, as well as those in NYC/ NY and any other place that the Trumps have lied about the valuation of property.

And then there is the case of Fraud: It's really not a victim-less crime until the last shoe drops as in the case of a ponzi- scheme; and that anyone who creates a fraud- a sham, or falsity about any financial asset, is subject to being treated as a Fraud. Play you fun games and go to jail.

some injured parties: insurance companies who were defrauded on valuations and premiums based on in-accurate values. (shareholders). If you get a discount for having a fake higher credit rating, that is a damage.

Points on loans when the loan ratio is much closer to 100% vs. 70% for example, there is a loss of loan origination or closing costs for being outside of those costs. Again damages to bank share holders.

If you defraud one bank with discrepancies in loan % and pay off another loan with the proceeds, you have damaged two parties, one who had a loan that was provided with false information, and favorable terms, to pay off another loan based on additional false info.

Some other examples:

Kiting;

CASH, is the most liquid asset and has the highest risk of being misstated.
Kiting and lapping are typical examples of stealing money/ embezzlement.

For the purpose of CPA exam, you can understand Kiting/ lapping as methods of hiding/misstating the Company's actual Cash position.

As per Becker textbook, "Kiting occurs when a check drawn on one bank is deposited in another bank and no record is made of the disbursement in the balance of the first bank."

Lets understand this- there are two bank accounts in a company- BANK 1/ BANK 2.

Check is drawn on BANK 1(balance of BANK 1-- decreases) and the check is deposited in BANK 2( balance in BANK 2 -- increases), but thats not what happens.

In Kiting , only deposit (in BANK 2) and no disbursement (in BANK 1) is recorded.
So at year end both BANK 1 and BANK 2 shows the higher balance.

Auditors use BANK TRANSFER SCHEDULE, to detect Kiting.

Etc.

Lapping:

LAPPING
Lapping as per Becker text book, involves withholding current receipts of cash or checks and not recording them. The unrecorded receipt is covered by applying a subsequent receipt to the previously unrecorded account.

In simple language,it's cash theft. A debtor of the company deposits $100, which is not recorded, but is misappropriated by the employee, and that shortage is covered with receipts from another customer.Any balance appearing in the 1dt debtor's account( the amount debtor has paid but is not recorded and is stolen) is usually WRITTEN OFF


Any way you slice it, Fraudsters get what's coming to them, and It's going to break the Trump Org into a thousand pieces.

Stupid liars get stupid prizes.

Plenty of victimless crimes still result in jail. Get caught paying a woman for sex. I suspect none of the women on this site would say they are victims. Nonetheless, it's illegal.

Take the home test kit for all these cock-a-mamy theories. Go try to acquire a property valued at $500,000 and try to convince the lender, insurance companies and all of their underwriters that, even though you are an unemployed bum - that you are good for the $2M loan you want to purchase it. Report back with your findings.

Take the home test kit for all these cock-a-mamy theories. Go try to acquire a property valued at $500,000 and try to convince the lender, insurance companies and all of their underwriters that, even though you are an unemployed bum - that you are good for the $2M loan you want to purchase it. Report back with your findings. Originally Posted by FesteredUncle

Only an example someone that believes Trump could come up with. Nonsensical and assinine at the same time.

Only an example someone that believes Trump could come up with. Nonsensical and assinine at the same time. Originally Posted by 1blackman1

you seem confused. I am neither the NY AG or the judge in the case.

Plenty of victimless crimes still result in jail. Get caught paying a woman for sex. I suspect none of the women on this site would say they are victims. Nonetheless, it's illegal. Originally Posted by 1blackman1

Should victimless crimes result in jail time? Should paying one of the women on this site for sex be illegal?

I don't think it should illegal. But it is and until legislators decide otherwise, it shall remain so and we have to live with that.

For that matter, drunk driving shouldn't be illegal if you don't get into an accident. If you safely get from point A to point B who did you harm? Nonetheless, your possible danger is what makes it illegal and we all accept that it is.

Cheating banks with fraud in this instance might be “victimless” but it's the other instances where it's not victimless that makes it illegal

For that matter, drunk driving shouldn't be illegal if you don't get into an accident. If you safely get from point A to point B who did you harm? Nonetheless, your possible danger is what makes it illegal and we all accept that it is. Originally Posted by 1blackman1

Touche. Good analogy. If Trump had done that back in the 1990's when his bondholders and banks lost over $1 billion then I imagine he'd have been in real trouble. Back then a billion was a lot of money. And his lenders didn't have thirty years of history to show them they'd be idiots if they took his word for his net worth.

Yes absolutely.



Yep, courts do it in business litigation every day. In a jury trial, a jury does it. In a bench trial, the judge is expected to make and does make the decision.




Yep, except they dont “simply disregard”, they rely on the affidavits, testimony and other documemtary evidence to come to a conclusion. Again, happens everyday in courthouses across the US. Originally Posted by 1blackman1

... But THIS Judge is not doing that.
The affidavits, testimony and other documentary evidence
shows that he grossly undervalued Trump's Mar-a-Largo property.

#### Salty

I guess we’ll know in a few days. Trial will be over next week. I'm thinking 1) no business license and 2) 180 million. I'm still 50/50 on a court-ordered administrator.

... And onto appeal...

#### Salty