Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 - Do you beleive the "official cover story"?

Russia can, because Russia does with impunity.

Boardman, our "investigators" have to be invited, according to international law, and the U.S. is then obligated to assure the safety of any investigators dispatched to the area. If the President wants to know how and by whom the plane was shot down, sending anyone to the crash site is a waste of time and effort. "We" already have the imagery to identify how and who. It was reported last night "we" have the gps of the launch site and missile type.

All this other hand wringing and fretting is stalling to determine what a response should be and to facilitate doubt to avoid responding significantly.

It's time for another vacation.

Wtf do you propose we do LL? I do not want to hear more of your constant crying but wtf you would do? Invade Russia?

So they mistook this


for this?

Originally Posted by boardman

Not really. At 33,000 feet, all anyone would see would be a dot with a contrail.

This wasn't done visually.

It was all done on radar and done poorly, obviously.

This is what we're talking about. The SA-11 is not a shoulder launched system that you can just pick up. It takes training and you just don't find one on the road. These were given by the Russians and probably has a Russian trainer with it.

I agree that we should stay out of it at this point in time time and allow the investigative authorities to determine WTF happened.

Over reacting at this point in time is not in anyone's best interest!

Once an informed decision is made we can then determine the path going forward. Originally Posted by bigtex

They will be sent to wherever they can investigate from. If that's at home in DC it's still tying up resources.
They will still send/use them, The US seems to feel they have to make a showing.

Before I begin, obviously the world is watching reports of a downed passenger jet near the Russia-Ukraine border. And it looks like it may be a terrible tragedy. Right now we’re working to determine whether there were American citizens on board. That is our first priority.' 'And I've directed my national security team to stay in close contact with the Ukrainian governemnt. The United States will offer any assistance we can to help determine what happened and why. And as a country, our thoughts and prayers are with all the families and passengers, wherever they call home. Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696366/It-looks-like-terrible-tragedy-Obama-briefly-addresses-Malaysian-plane-crash-emerges-23-U-S-passengers-board.html#ixzz37peuVtRe Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

He could have stopped at "terrible tragedy" and "determining if any American Citizens were on board". He went on to say that the US will offer assistance in determining what happened and why.

To me that sounds like "we will send our people to tell your people what happened." Originally Posted by boardman

Yeah Putin would dearly love to have a third party there sorting out the details ... Originally Posted by pyramider

Pyramider got it right.

There isn't going to be any real investigation of this - at least not of the wreckage.

It is pretty clear the Russian separatist rebels - and possibly the Russians themselves - shot down the plane.

But the wreckage landed in rebel-held territory. So they have the evidence of their own crime.

I don't see any reason why the rebels would allow the wreckage to be inspected if the inevitable result is to cement the guilt of the rebels and/or the Russians.

I would expect them to cite "security concerns" and refuse any outside inspection of the wreckage, the crash site, or their own radar data.

We are going to have to piece this together with intelligence information from our own military radar and satellite systems.

Not really. At 33,000 feet, all anyone would see would be a dot with a contrail.

This wasn't done visually.

It was all done on radar and done poorly, obviously. Originally Posted by ExNYer

Exactly!

This is what we're talking about. The SA-11 is not a shoulder launched system that you can just pick up. It takes training and you just don't find one on the road. These were given by the Russians and probably has a Russian trainer with it. Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

Oh come on, any good army/navy surplus store would have them.

Oh come on, any good army/navy surplus store would have them. Originally Posted by pyramider

Or check Ebay...Oh, wait they don't do weapons.

Edit: I just found one on Craigslist - Istanbul. They wrote it up like it's a radio controlled hobby helicopter but it's obviously a SA-11

Wtf do you propose we do LL?

Based on what I've seen of you ... "we" ain't gonna do nothing. As for me there is not much I can do either. I was hoping (about all we got left) that OUR PRESIDENT would immediately cut ties with the Russians ... of course it might put our space program in jeopardy since this duffus converted NASA into a Muslim educational institution, and some of our Russian providers might get stranded here without any replacements!

I do not want to hear more of your constant crying ...

That's not me crying you "hear" .... you might want to check your gaggle of bimbos ...

but wtf you would do? Invade Russia?

See above. I did post an idea I heard last night ... executive order prohibiting Russian planes from landing in U.S. and cut off bank credit at U.S. banks.... immediately until the Russians cough up the culprits. Originally Posted by WTF

Carry on.

Not really. At 33,000 feet, all anyone would see would be a dot with a contrail.

This wasn't done visually.

It was all done on radar and done poorly, obviously. Originally Posted by ExNYer

You're the aviation expert I see... so....


Does the prop job leave a contrail or have a 33,000 foot operation ceiling?

It depends? Service ceiling about 25,000 for An-26. I'm also thinking a bit slower.

IJA

How do you know? Somebody might have found a piece of insulation washed up on shore and tossed it in the garbage, not knowing what it was.

And if it crashed in the middle of the ocean, but remained relatively intact, why would you expect ANY of it to be found.

Think of the plane that crashed in the Hudson River in NY. It floated briefly before sinking next to the shore line. But if was intact except of an engine that got ripped off.

If it had sank more quicly, nothing would have been left behind. Originally Posted by ExNYer

That (Capt Sully's landing) was the most perfect water landing possible with such a jet, which even has landing stabilization software when it senses the ground (or level surface of the water) to level the wings, on relatively calm waters versus open ocean, and yet the engine was ripped off. Your scenario is plausible that relatively small debris was found and not identified by disinterested third parties, yet the final disposition of the case is still lacking adequate physical evidence.
I do not advocate the "terrorist landing in a remote area and hide the plane theory", but without any part of the plane yet found it cannot be conclusively ruled out yet. All the water landings I have ever seen of large commercial aircraft have yielded debris. This case (flight 370) is still open.
I'm no conspiracy theorist. I think Oswald acted alone and shot Kennedy, and MLK was shot by James Earl Ray, and Sirhan Sirhan shot Bobby. I think the WTC was downed by aircraft and not a controlled explosion. I don't even buy into the Bermuda triangle bullshit, nor area 51 and martians. Fuck, I don't even think Bigfoot exists.
I just think more information is needed, and I hope JD is eventually able to laugh in your face and say "I told you so". But is is a longshot.

Carry on. Originally Posted by LexusLover

Credit was cut off today as part of the larger sanction package due to the Russian presence in Ukraine.

Credit was cut off today as part of the larger sanction package due to the Russian presence in Ukraine. Originally Posted by boardman

Do to Russia what we did to Iran....see if we can change their minds and hearts in the next 35 years!

You're the aviation expert I see... so....

Does the prop job leave a contrail or have a 33,000 foot operation ceiling?

It depends? Service ceiling about 25,000 for An-26. I'm also thinking a bit slower. Originally Posted by LexusLover

Actually, doesn't that back up my point that this was done by radar, not visually?

It doesn't matter what a small An-26 looks like at 25,000 feet. Because we know the target was at 33,000 feet. Contrail or not.

From the ground, a 777 is just a dot or a teeny-tiny V-shape at 33,000 feet. The An-26 might not even be visible if it could somehow get that high.

So, if any one WAS looking up, they couldn't have thought they saw an An-26.

Also, the intelligence reports are indicating this was done by a radar-guided SA-11 missile system.

I don't know where the An-26 story got started, but it is pure bullshit.

Also, the intelligence reports are indicating this was done by a radar-guided SA-11 missile system.

I don't know where the An-26 story got started, but it is pure bullshit. Originally Posted by ExNYer

Early on the "intelligence reports" were that it was not an SA-11 missile and the launch was not from Ukrainian soil ... the "An-26 story" was not "bullshit" since one was shot down earlier in the week with almost 50 personnel lost, and there were phone conversations intercepted by U.S. intelligence between a Ukrainian and a Russian discussing a downed cargo plane yesterday morning with lots of profanity between the two on the phone ... and then the "facebook" announcement of a cargo plane shot down was removed ...

.. it is "convenient" to keep the SA-11 story alive, because the "rebels" have SA-11's from Russia, which the Russians were training them to use. It was reported that there are SA-20's in Russia near the Ukranian border where the plane was shot down. The Ukranians did not have SA-20's.

If it's a bunch of crazy rebels who accidentally shot down a passenger plane then "we" don't have to do anything about it .... and Putin gets a pass!!!!!

Then "we" can get back to "our vacation" ... all is good in the world, and happy!