While We're on the Subject of IOP, Let's Address the White Elephant ...

I didn't post in the IOP thread, but I don't care for illusions either.

I think it's more productive to just ask what your partner likes, and it's a two way street.

In my opinion, guys who wine and dine providers in a semblance of romantic courtship are, at the very least, barking up the wrong tree.

I also enjoy partying, but I can't imagine doing that on the clock.

I'm not here looking for love. I want to have fun. If she feels the same way, we'll get along fine.

Sorry if I don't seem more romantic. It's just that... I'm not! lol

You look amazing Eva!!
Any real man knows you get what you give.
I could be your fantasy or worst nightmare depending on how you treat and talk to me. Originally Posted by lily blake

Plus a millon! Great post

In my opinion, guys who wine and dine providers in a semblance of romantic courtship are, at the very least, barking up the wrong tree. Originally Posted by John Q.

It's not about "wining and dining" a lady, rather it's about genuinely enjoying a social meeting and the pleasure of someone's company that (hopefully) will be mutually pleasurable. Isn't that the reason we do research before selecting a lady?

Business in general, is much more pleasant when conducted as a social event than simply as a transaction IMHO. In fact, in the normal course of civvie business, I've made a number of life long friends as a result of a more social approach to doing business.

It's not about "wining and dining" a lady, rather it's about genuinely enjoying a social meeting and the pleasure of someone's company that (hopefully) will be mutually pleasurable. Isn't that the reason we do research before selecting a lady?

Business in general, is much more pleasant when conducted as a social event than simply as a transaction IMHO. In fact, in the normal course of civvie business, I've made a number of life long friends as a result of a more social approach to doing business. Originally Posted by Billy Babitt

Well said! And I must agree on not wanting an illusion...that's why it's important to take a bit of time to develop rapport and actually ENJOY each other ... I know a phony moan when I hear one....but you guys seem to like it and I'm Luke "wtf? Is he really buying this....I hope she shuts up I'm getting a headache ! " hehehe!

Me, if I'm not feeling it, instead of faking it, I help the gent know my hotspots, being patient.

And John Q...nothing wrong with you not being as romantic, as long as you're respectful, and differentiating women from Blow up dolls, it's really all the same, there's just levels to this , some have a comfort zone to where there's no need to elevate to the next, and still are capable of making a provider feel appreciated.

I didn't post in the IOP thread, but I don't care for illusions either.

I think it's more productive to just ask what your partner likes, and it's a two way street.

In my opinion, guys who wine and dine providers in a semblance of romantic courtship are, at the very least, barking up the wrong tree.

I also enjoy partying, but I can't imagine doing that on the clock.

I'm not here looking for love. I want to have fun. If she feels the same way, we'll get along fine.

Sorry if I don't seem more romantic. It's just that... I'm not! lol Originally Posted by John Q.

No one likes IOP, especially when the I is very prevalent, it is kinda like telling a provider you like a moaner, and even if she is or is not naturally, she immediately starts her fake screaming and moaning at any slight touch of you on her. It is the the providers who do IOP and make if feel as if it is genuine are the best and ATF type providers, IMO. You do not need to wine and dine or play any type of seduction game with a provider, the requirement of guaranteed sex and getting off is what the donation is for, how you go about it is the key to getting a repeat visit from the same hobbyist as well as him telling others about her per a review, PM or in the ML. As long as a guy is respectful of the provider (her time and her person), has the right donation, and has great hygiene, a provider should provide her advertised services and make him feel glad he is a man. Making her feel special by appreciating that she will see you, as many providers do the NCNS game if they even respond to your initial contact to begin with and by the same token, a provider should make a hobbyist feel appreciated by the fact that with the multi-hundreds of providers out there, he chose her to see and spend his hard earned money on. No one is looking for true love and romance because if they are as you said, they are barking up the wrong tree, but we all are looking for fun and a little bit of ego stroking, otherwise, why are we in this hobby? It is certainly not to pay for a dead fish fuck!

This is one of the reasons I made the decision to be more of a swinger than a hobbyist. The ladies I meet are genuinely happy to make a real connection. Use real names, real addresses, phone numbers, etc. Come over for a cookout and a night of board games and then head home or to bed for a romp depending on how you're feeling that day.

There's no risk of arrest, or outing. When fear is removed from the equation, passion can be more of a reality than an illusion. When your wife knows and either wants the play by play related to her later, or to join in, that amps up the passion as well. If you're having fun that's a double good because telling her about it later will get her motor running and lead to more fun. If you had a dead fish experience that won't do much for her later. So you'll essentially have struck out twice. Better put some effort into it!

I think the social taboo, legal risk, financial strain, and other fear generating aspects make passion a lot harder to maintain in the hobby than in swinging. The risks in swinging are mostly emotional entanglements, differing expectations, and communication of ground rules. And those can be enormous problems of course. But if managed well they enable passion to flow in both directions.

I try to make her feel special, after all, of the 600+ providers out there in D/FW, and just on Eccie and p411, I chose her to spend my money on. As far as making a provider feel as if she is another notch in the bedpost, well, I would not go that far, but the trick is while you are together, make it as if no one else matters (IOP). Providers and hobbyists are not stupid and we can see the reviews with how many a hobbyist has as well as how many the particular providers have. IMO, there is a big difference due to who pays cash to who as far as how it should work and who should initiate the IOP first. It is very tough to make a provider feel special during a session when she gives a lifeless BJ and just lays there like a corpse during DATY and CFS and after the first session is over, does he set another appointment with you ASAP or do you depend on first time clients for the bulk of your money? I understand that it is a long stretch to give off passion with a person you just met, but being able to do it, that is what separates ATF type of providers and just a fuck and vice versa. If you were nothing more than a blowup doll during your time together, I doubt you get any repeats.

Yes, it is appropriate to look at the provider's profile and see what kind of flowers and/or perfume she likes and get that for her before the session, especially the first time you meet in person, and it is very smart by the provider to get to know a guy some as far as what he likes/dislikes during a session. It does not guarantee a good time, but it lets the provider know that the hobbyist is at least a thoughtful guy and vice versa. Then, the way he treats you like a lady and you make him feel glad he is a man, all the accolades of a passionate session should be there. It does take two to tango, but if the provider makes the hobbyist feel as if he is a number or wallet, and looks at the clock, rushing the guy so he is there for way less than the hour he paid for so you can get back to that movie you were watching, then it would be difficult to say the least, to exude passion and he wants to just get off so he can leave. Originally Posted by davidfree986

Well said

This is one of the reasons I made the decision to be more of a swinger than a hobbyist. The ladies I meet are genuinely happy to make a real connection. Use real names, real addresses, phone numbers, etc. Come over for a cookout and a night of board games and then head home or to bed for a romp depending on how you're feeling that day.

There's no risk of arrest, or outing. When fear is removed from the equation, passion can be more of a reality than an illusion. When your wife knows and either wants the play by play related to her later, or to join in, that amps up the passion as well. If you're having fun that's a double good because telling her about it later will get her motor running and lead to more fun. If you had a dead fish experience that won't do much for her later. So you'll essentially have struck out twice. Better put some effort into it!

I think the social taboo, legal risk, financial strain, and other fear generating aspects make passion a lot harder to maintain in the hobby than in swinging. The risks in swinging are mostly emotional entanglements, differing expectations, and communication of ground rules. And those can be enormous problems of course. But if managed well they enable passion to flow in both directions. Originally Posted by dmcleod

For us, swinging just seemed so more messier because of the potential for emotional issues and the time and effort it takes to seek out someone compatible with you (especially if you're looking for a single chick when your SO isn't interested in other dudes).

The hobby world fit our needs better since it was easier for us to research providers we thought we would click with and while it is a business transaction, it's still very possible to have a good experience for everyone involved without the potential drama involved with swinging.

Essentially, while there are pros and cons to both, we decided that the hobby world was less of a hassle for us to obtain what we were looking for.

Swinging or not, knowing ones real names and address doesn't make the situation less of a fantasy or illusion. Even whilst swinging, my incall was used and never my actual residence. As a matter of fact, Bosley and I are good friends, and we swim, and my dog and I ate ribs at our cookout. Good times!

I suppose the only difference is monetary, but then again there's no such thing as free vagina in one form or another. Emotional distress is one exchange/risk to be exchanged. Pregnancy, STI (it's common just as it is here in the hobby, yet seemingly more so swinging, for un protected sex) etc.

This keeps getting interesting!

To be honest it would be safer to assume she was faking. When I was a kid I faked being happy at work, to make the customers happy. They thought I was a nice guy, the whole time I was picturing myself dunking their terrible kids in the dirty mop bucket. I didn't do this tho, because I needed to work. I think that was an IOP in it's own way. There would never be a time for me when I was enjoying myself as much as the customer, because I would not have spent my money to be at work. Originally Posted by ktiix

And that is the basic jist of IOP as it also relates to the RW. Most people that work in retail and/or have to deal with customers, do have to put on a persona of how happy they to see them and what they can do to make their experience better, while in reality, the employee is thinking that the customer is the most dumbest and rudest asshole they ever met. But, the reason you smile and do what the customer wants with sincerity to please is because that is your job and what you get paid to do, just as you should here. In the hobby world, customer service is the same, but, unlike in the RW where you have to deal with it or get fired, if a guy is disrespectful, too demanding or just an asshole, then the provider has the right to refuse service. I just wish that there was a way that hobbyists could refuse to pay and rightfully get out of paying the full donation for partial, lackluster service, and yes, it is evident in the grand scheme of things for a guy to know when he is getting fucked, and not in the good way and clear, with no shades of grey to argue about it afterwards for a provider. But that will never happen, which is why providers do the blah sessions and are able to get away with it.

I've read you don't need the wine and dine, nor the whine and divine. Be Nice to get nice, etc.

Try to be a little more interested than interesting, listen more than you talk, listen with more than your ears. Know your way around a woman's body. Don't act like you're trying to sand it. When investigating nipples remember you're not trying to pop a zit. Don't be a man whore but don't smell like yesterday's underwear, either. Wash your taint. Pay attention to hers. Its not rocket science, its companionship on a rental basis, not ejaculation on an as-is basis. You can do that by yourself. You rent some company, you better fucking ENJOY yourself and your companion. If you can't, go rent a carpet steamer, not a woman.

Be Nice to get nice, etc.

Try to be a little more interested than interesting, listen more than you talk, listen with more than your ears. Know your way around a woman's body. don't smell like yesterday's underwear. Wash your taint. Pay attention to hers. Originally Posted by phildo

did you copy and paste one of Marvelous Tony's old posts?

There is no free lunch in any human endeavor. People are complicated, and the drives involved are fundamental and just beginning to be understood by science. Ideally we'd all have little dispensers of an oxytocin blocker that we could have a hit off of before a hobby or swinging encounter so we didn't have that whole pair bonding thing going on.

Unfortunately the same thing that kept our ancient ancestors alive makes it difficult for us to fool around without complications. Open relationships require more communication and honesty and management of expectations because they're not what we were raised with and our expectations were set by watching our parents relationships(for good or ill). It's the people who believe they can have a non traditional sex life while having a traditional(terrible) approach to communication between partners who have the worst time.

STIs and pregnancy are similar issues in swinging as hobbying, be safe, not sorry. Lots of swingers don't care as much about safety, so be sure you find the ones that do.

did you copy and paste one of Marvelous Tony's old posts?


Originally Posted by Chung Tran

Naw the Marvelous One was serious about washing your ass, getting a manicure, being a doormat, bragging about his cars, his conquests and his beautiful life. I just I thought I should say something besides what originally came to mind, which was "Who is calling me a fucking White Elephant, anyway?" I just figure I show up without a racing stripe and sucking on an Altoids I'm golden. But you other motherfuckers, you need to straighten up!

did you copy and paste one of Marvelous Tony's old posts?... Originally Posted by Chung Tran

It all makes sense now.