Bill Clinton is a total madman

finally found a reason to hit the ignore button, this gal is off her rocker Originally Posted by cptjohnstone

The profile says gender: male.

The profile says gender: male. Originally Posted by joe bloe

sorry misread, another Austin donkey nut

Cheer up COG. You had a good run. Nothing lasts forever. Besides, this guy can't last. It's impossible to maintain this level of lunacy for very long. He's bound to burn out soon. Originally Posted by joe bloe

I can always count on Joe to cheer me up!

AE,

I gotta ask: If there were no death camps, where did the systematic extermination of Jews occur? Also, in your opinion how many Jews were killed in the Holocaust of WWII? How do arrive at that number?

Further, how do explain the photographs of dead people stacked up like cord wood at the camps? Originally Posted by gnadfly

Out of 22 concentration camps there were typhus outbreaks at 4 of them, including Belsen, at the end of the war. The pictures of many dead bodies are all from the liberation of Belsen, and all the bodies are typhus victims. If you notice all the bodies are very thin, because of the desease that racked their bodies before death.
The same films also show thousands of healthy camp inmates in other areas of the camp.

There was no systemmatic extermination of the Jews, Gypsies, or anyone else across Europe. Jews suffered completely different fates in different countries. In Poland they were hearded into horrible ghettos until being taken to work camps later. In Hungary they lived undisturbed until 1944, when they were rounded up and sent to Auschwitz to work as slave laborers in the many huge factories there as part of the war effort. Treatment of Jews was completely different from country to country. In Germany many thousands of Jews which were disenfranchised under the Nuremberg laws actually fought on the German side, and hundreds served as officers. Go to Amazon and see "Hitlers Jewish Soldiers: the untold story....," by Mark Rigg.

What did happen however was that Jews predominated in the communist movements in all the countries conquered by the Soviets since 1920, including the Soviet occupation of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, in which the communists rounded up and slaughtered thousands of intellectuals, government officials, and landowners.

As a result, anti-communists everywhere in the east [but particularly in Ukraine and the Baltic states] rounded up ALL JEWS as the Germans advanced, and either murdered them [as in the Baltic countries] or put them in camps [as in Ukraine] where they were often murdered later.

If you refer to the stories of camp survivors you will see that in all the eastern countries that it was local groups who rounded up Jews and then delivered them to the Germans, or asked the Germans to use their weapons to come out to where they had been congregated to be shot.

The Germans didn't care about concealing their participation in these atrocities and keep detailed records of all the Jews and non-Jewish communists they participated in killing along with local forces. These records clearly show that over 1.5 million Jews were murdered by the Germans [mostly German police, not the Army or SS] during the war.

There is no German document anywhere refering to any extermination of Jews, and holocaust promoters explain this by saying that the Germans didn't want to leave a paper trail. However the Germans did leave paper trails all over the place everywhere they participated in murder of Jews and others. If they had actually ordered the extermination of the Jews, they would have recorded it. In fact the British recorded all the radio traffic from the camps, and the British archives show that everyday the camps radioed back how many people were brought in, taken away, and how many died. It is known exactly how many people died in the camps, and from what source. Survivor family members go to Auschwitz every year and can find the individual card for their family member to see what their history was there. Even though the Russians made up a lot of the false accusations about what went on at Auschwitz, the actual records of the place were preserved and can now be seen.

Look, if you want to know some more about this the United States did the same thing in Indonesia in 1965.

In 1965 the CIA gave the Indonesian army lists of hundreds of thousands of communist party members and the army rounded them all up and killed them. As many as 300,000 to maybe one million Indonesian communist party members and their families were killed this way by the Indonesian government and the United States. It's no different than what the Germans and local anti-communists did in eastern Europe from 1941-45.

That's just the way it was when fighting the good fight against communism.

There is no German document anywhere refering to any extermination of Jews, and holocaust promoters explain this by saying that the Germans didn't want to leave a paper trail. Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

The Wannsee Protocol: See @ http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Wannsee_Protocol

http://www.holocaustresearchproject....nnseedocs.html


Adolf Eichmann told his questioners that towards the end of the meeting [Wannsee Conference] cognac was served, and that after that the conversation became less restrained. "The gentlemen were standing together, or sitting together", he said, "and were discussing the subject quite bluntly, quite differently from the language which I had to use later in the record. During the conversation they minced no words about it at all ... they spoke about methods of killing, about liquidation, about extermination".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference

There used to be a guy that posted elaborate arguments about HIV not causing AIDS. Holocaust denial is similar. People can talk themselves into believing anything. Just look at the Scientologists. For that matter just look at liberal Democrats. They persist in believing in the possibility of a socialist uptopia, despite all evidence to the contrary.

I guess we conservatives, may be delusional in our belief that the republic can be saved and limited constitutional governmnent can be restored. Originally Posted by joe bloe

gotta chuckle Joe I can find very few of your posts,regardless of what it is about that has the term LIBERAL in it they are in your head bad,

The Wannsee Protocol: See @ http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Wannsee_Protocol

http://www.holocaustresearchproject....nnseedocs.html


Adolf Eichmann told his questioners that towards the end of the meeting [Wannsee Conference] cognac was served, and that after that the conversation became less restrained. "The gentlemen were standing together, or sitting together", he said, "and were discussing the subject quite bluntly, quite differently from the language which I had to use later in the record. During the conversation they minced no words about it at all ... they spoke about methods of killing, about liquidation, about extermination".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Uh, in case you didn't know wikipedia isn't written by scholars, but by just anyone who wants to add content to it. It's not authoritative on anything in which there's controversy.

There's a film called "Conspiracy" which purports to be a re-inactment of the Conference based on the "transcript" which was produced. If you watch carefully though you'll see that much of the content is far away from what any transcript shows and is pure fiction.

Just like "Shindler's List" this film is really fiction from start to finish, just as the "Wansee Transcript" from which it's based is a fiction.

The real transcript of the Wansee Conference is actually available, and it decribes in detail plans to empty out the ghettos in Poland and so forth and send all their occupants to labor camps for badly-needed war production.

In fact the beginning of the film the characters refer to these plans [for use in labor camps] as "fanciful," clearly refering to the authentic Conference Transcripts, and then suddenly the whole thing takes a ridiculous turn when they start talking about using gas to murder tens of thousands of people a day, and so forth, which comes from the forged version of the transcripts.

The producers of the film couldn't even keep to one version.

The ONLY evidence of any kind that genocide was discussed at Wannsee was an affirmative answer from Adolf Eichmann when asked by his prosecutors if the word "evacuation" in the transcript really meant "to kill." Eichmann of course had been kidnapped and was appearing in a kangaroo court facing the death penalty in a country which has prohibited capital punishment in it's constitution. He was led to believe that he would be allowed to live if he gave the proscutor the answer he was seeking so Eichmann lied. The Eichmann trial in Israel was a sham from start to finish, as Eichmann's Israeli government lawyers told him he would certainly live if he swore to the answers they were looking for. If Israel really wanted justice for Eichmann all they had to do was turn him over to Germany for a real trial as his "crimes" were all committed there, where their laws applied. Eichmann obviously had never committed any crimes in Israel and no Israeli court had jurisdiction.

Hundreds or maybe thousands of Nazis were murdered by Jewish/Israeli "vengeance squads" after the war, but Eichmann was exempted from such treatment so the show trial could be held.

Also the countries in South America where all the Nazis eventually came to hide caught and executed several Israeli hit team members in 1950 and 1951 so no more "vengeance squads" operated there. The team that snatched Eichmann and took him out of the Buenos Aires airport were extremely daring.

Uh, in case you didn't know wikipedia isn't written by scholars, but by just anyone who wants to add content to it. It's not authoritative on anything in which there's controversy.

There's a film called "Conspiracy" which purports to be a re-inactment of the Conference based on the "transcript" which was produced. If you watch carefully though you'll see that much of the content is far away from what any transcript shows and is pure fiction Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

Actually, much of what is on wiki is based on true scholarship, but it pays to be wary. Plus, I didn’t cite the movie. I cited the actual Wannsee Protocol document and Adolf Eichmann’s testimony validating the document's place in the historical record. Coupled with the testimony of tens of thousands of other witnesses and perpetrators, the case for the Holocaust is irrefutable. Also of note, the Nazis who were tried by and large did not dispute the record. No, their almost universal defense was, “I was only following orders.”

More from Adolf Eichmann:

"[T]hey [the Wannsee Conference participants] spoke about methods for killing, about liquidation, about extermination. I was busy with my records. I had to make the preparations for taking down the minutes; I could not perk up my ears and listen to everything that was said. But it filtered through the small room and I caught fragments of this conversation. It was a small room so from time to time I heard a word or two."

http://www.ghwk.de/engl/texts/eichmanns-testimony.pdf

The fact that you stoop to insults shows that you have no evidence or knowledge on your side. Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

No, you have that backwards.

YOU are the one that must provide evidence and knowledge.

Since you believe the commonly accepted historical record is false, then it is YOU, not me, that must provide proof. And, in response, all you do is post a YouTube link that does not work.

I accept as FACT the commonly accepted history of the Holocaust - namely that the Nazis DELIBERATELY killed or caused to be killed about 6 million Jews, not to mention all of the others - Russians, gypsies, non-Jewish Slavs) . A huge portion of the Jews were killed in concentrations camps where they were gassed to death, starved to death, worked to death, shot, or died of diseases that could have been treated but were not. The Nazis didn't see the point in treating Jews that had typhus or tuberculosis, since they would be gassed eventually.

So, once again, start naming some REPUTABLE books and scholars that we can consult to see if the Holocaust did not really happen or was exaggerated.

Actually, much of what is on wiki is based on true scholarship, but it pays to be wary. Plus, I didn’t cite the movie. I cited the actual Wannsee Protocol document and Adolf Eichmann’s testimony validating the document's place in the historical record. Coupled with the testimony of tens of thousands of other witnesses and perpetrators, the case for the Holocaust is irrefutable. Also of note, the Nazis who were tried by and large did not dispute the record. No, their almost universal defense was, “I was only following orders.”

More from Adolf Eichmann:

"[T]hey [the Wannsee Conference participants] spoke about methods for killing, about liquidation, about extermination. I was busy with my records. I had to make the preparations for taking down the minutes; I could not perk up my ears and listen to everything that was said. But it filtered through the small room and I caught fragments of this conversation. It was a small room so from time to time I heard a word or two."

http://www.ghwk.de/engl/texts/eichmanns-testimony.pdf Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Eichmann's testimony is not a paper documentation of anything. The Germans did leave elaborate paper documents of every massacre they perpetrated, and the numbers add up to 1.5 million Jews and a million or more communist commissars and party officials. Additionally the British archives show how many people died of desease, etc., in each of the 22 camps.

Eichmann lied, and everybody familiar with his case knows why. Israel's constitution forbids the death penalty. He was provided with an attorney by the government, who persuaded him that he'd be spared if he agreed to whatever the prosecutor's asked him to say so he did it. Otherwise THERE WOULD BE NO REASON FOR THESE "ADMISSIONS."

When Eichmann was kidnapped it came at a time when the "6 million Jews killed in 22 camps" alleged at Nuremberg in 1946 was totally unraveling. The purpose was to grab him and stage an illegal show trial in Israel using his admissions as "proof" that a genocide occurred. At the top echelons of the Israeli government is was well known that no genocide occurred. At that time all Israeli citizens who were interned in camps were benefitting from monthly compensation checks from the German government, and they still are as they are lifetime remittances.

Eichmann's testimony is not a paper documentation of anything. The Germans did leave elaborate paper documents of every massacre they perpetrated, and the numbers add up to 1.5 million Jews and a million or more communist commissars and party officials. Additionally the British archives show how many people died of desease, etc., in each of the 22 camps.

Eichmann lied, and everybody familiar with his case knows why. Israel's constitution forbids the death penalty. He was provided with an attorney by the government, who persuaded him that he'd be spared if he agreed to whatever the prosecutor's asked him to say so he did it. Otherwise THERE WOULD BE NO REASON FOR THESE "ADMISSIONS."

When Eichmann was kidnapped it came at a time when the "6 million Jews killed in 22 camps" alleged at Nuremberg in 1946 was totally unraveling. The purpose was to grab him and stage an illegal show trial in Israel using his admissions as "proof" that a genocide occurred. At the top echelons of the Israeli government is was well known that no genocide occurred. At that time all Israeli citizens who were interned in camps were benefitting from monthly compensation checks from the German government, and they still are as they are lifetime remittances. Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

Again, the Nazis who were tried by and large did not dispute the record of their atrocities. Their almost universal defense was, “I was only following orders.”

No, you have that backwards.

YOU are the one that must provide evidence and knowledge.

Since you believe the commonly accepted historical record is false, then it is YOU, not me, that must provide proof. And, in response, all you do is post a YouTube link that does not work.

I accept as FACT the commonly accepted history of the Holocaust - namely that the Nazis DELIBERATELY killed or caused to be killed about 6 million Jews, not to mention all of the others - Russians, gypsies, non-Jewish Slavs) . A huge portion of the Jews were killed in concentrations camps where they were gassed to death, starved to death, worked to death, shot, or died of diseases that could have been treated but were not. The Nazis didn't see the point in treating Jews that had typhus or tuberculosis, since they would be gassed eventually.

So, once again, start naming some REPUTABLE books and scholars that we can consult to see if the Holocaust did not really happen or was exaggerated. Originally Posted by ExNYer

Actually no historian today, including those who believe there were death camps, holds to the 6 million story alleged by the Russians and allies after the war. The premier historian who still believes in death camps is of course Raul Hilberg, the author of "The Destruction of the European Jews," and he puts the number of Jews killed in total at 5.1 million. He puts the total number of Jews killed at camps of all kinds at 2.7 million.

He breaks down some of the camp killings in these very round numbers:

Auschwitz 1,000,000
Treblinka 750,000
Belzec 550,000
Sobibor 200,000
Kulmhot 150,000
Lublin 50,000

Non-death camps:
Bergen-Belzen, Buchenwald, Manthausen, Dachau, Stutthof, Poniarowa, Trawniki, Semlin 150,000

Golta [Romania] 100,000

These figures [including the finding that no systemmatic extermination occurred at any of the camps in Germany proper] are also held by Yehuda Bauer, Simon Weienthal, and Jean-Claude Pressac.

On the other side of the spectrum you have to remember that in many countries in Europe it is ILLEGAL to publish that no death camps existed, and that people are actually serving time in prison at this time for publishing such. In fact I would be liable for prosecution in Germany and Austria just for this posting if I were making it there. Therefore there are very few scholars there who are publishing their findings regarding investigations regarding the six camps in Poland which are considered to have been extermination camps.

However in France Robert Faurisson at the University of Lyon has published extensively, and at Princeton University in the US Arno Mayer has published similarly.

Furthermore, if you've actually read my posts I never said that "no holocaust occurred," but only that there were no extermination camps and no policy of genocide. To myself it's bad enough [since this is a moral issue with yourself] that the Germans documented having murdered l.5 million Jews in the east in collaboration with local anti-communist groups. If you want me to admit that the Nazis did monterous things there you have it.

On the other hand however I continue to insist that as bad as the Nazis were that after the war the CIA leadership considered the communists to have been much worse, and I absolutely agree with them. What the Nazis did, as bad as it was, was not as evil as what the communists did everywhere they went, such as:

The systemmatic rape of millions of girls in every country they entered, not just Germany and Austria
The murder of millions of military officers, intellectuals, anti-communists, socialists, and land owners in every country they entered
The elimination of all political rights of any kind in every country they entered
The murder of over 20 million people in the Soviet Union itself.
The invasion of the Baltic states and massacres there before 1941
The attack on Finland in 1939
The invasion and occupation of 52 percent of Poland in 1939 in conjunction with Germany and the masscres they perpetrated there.


Nor is there any rebuttal that I can see that thousands of Jews served in the German armed forces during the war. Mark Rigg's recently published work regarding this is unassailable.

As for not treating Jews for typhus this is rather ridiculous. Everyone knows that the labor camps all had hospitals and that they treated the Jewish and other internees for desease. The card at Auschwitz for Anna Frank's father shows the date in which he was admitted to the hospital there for typhus and the date that he died.

If you've ever been to Auschwitz you'd know that it had a soccer field, a swimming pool, a hosptial, and a theater. Or you don't have to go there, you can go to the USC Shoah project archives where there are 50,000 survivor interviews and see it from them.

WWII European War (military) Dead (1939-45): 28,736,000
■War-related (additional) Democides
■Hitler: 20,946,000 (including Jews: 5,291,000)
■Stalin: 13,053,000


•Estimates based on books by Rummel, Rudolph J.:
■Democide: Nazi Genocide and Mass Murder (1992), The German rampage across Europe.
■Death By Government (1994), The full treatment for atrocities committed worldwide during the 20th Century.
http://www.fact-index.com/d/de/democide.html

WWII European War (military) Dead (1939-45): 28,736,000
■War-related (additional) Democides
■Hitler: 20,946,000 (including Jews: 5,291,000)
■Stalin: 13,053,000


•Estimates based on books by Rummel, Rudolph J.:
■Democide: Nazi Genocide and Mass Murder (1992), The German rampage across Europe.
■Death By Government (1994), The full treatment for atrocities committed worldwide during the 20th Century.
http://www.fact-index.com/d/de/democide.html
Originally Posted by I B Hankering

I think the difference is that the bulk of the people killed by the Germans were soldiers of all kinds, including millions and millions of Russian soldiers, whereas the bulk of those killed by the communists were ordinary civilians.

Furthermore,

The bulk of the killings by the communists happend AFTER the war was over, and during their savage and brutal occupations that followed.

BTW you mean that this source puts the number of Jews killed at less than 6 million? Oh my...

also,

Most historians believe based on the Soviet archives released since 1990 that the communists there killed over 20 million in the Soviet Union alone.

I think the difference is that the people killed by the Germans were soldiers of all kinds, including millions and millions of Russian soldiers, whereas the bulk of those killed by the communists were ordinary civilians.

Furthermore,

The bulk of the killings by the communists happend AFTER the war was over, and during their savage and brutal occupations that followed.

BTW you mean that this source puts the number of Jews killed at less than 6 million? Oh my... Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

It puts the number of Jews killed at 5,291,000.