Hobby Lobby Invests In Numerous Abortion And Contraception Products While Claiming Religious Objection

I said it before, I will say it again.

You're an idiot. A mouth-breathing, shrill, unthinking, progressive dullard.

Actually quite the contrary and very educated by comparison ;-)

It is the 401(k) plan of their EMPLOYEES.

Sure the "money" belongs to the employee but the "plan" belongs to the employer as along as the employee is employed.

Hobby Lobby doesn't control the 401(k) plan. They hire plan managers who provide employees with different choices of investment funds - indexed funds, money markets, bonds, foreign funds, etc. The company doesn't pick the funds.

You're trying to regurgitate some of what I stated in my OP regarding plan managers. But let me break this down for a bit further. Companies have a fiduciary responsibility to ensure they're actively involved and interested in the performance of the 401K plan offering. If not they can be sued by the employees for mismanagement so they cannot solely rely on the word of the plan administrator whom they hired.

How is this handled? Typically by quarterly meetings in fact the plan manager / administrator will typically insist they be present at these quarterly meetings to avoid dereliction of duty so to speak. My point is you cannot make the claim that Hobby Lobby doesn't control or even know of the investments the plan offers. You're a moron of the highest order if you believe they had no idea and if so they're incompetent at worst and disingenuous at best.

Hobby Lobby has to deduct the money from their salaries, but the money belongs to the EMPLOYEES and the EMPLOYEES pick how THEIR money gets invested.

Already answered this you need to be more specific on the point you're trying to make. Sounds like you're rambling. However, EMPLOYEES pick from what? They pick from investment funds pre-selected for them (by HL and the plan administrator) and in this case it includes investment in companies that make ABORTION DRUGS. HL contributes matching funds to the Pfizer investment. So they’re financing Pfizer through this investment plan but require their employees to buy the pills out of their own pockets as a “matter of religious conviction”?

The whole point of defined contribution plans (401k) as oppose to defined benefit plans (company pensions) was to get companies OUT of the retirement business.

OK? Again don't use the moral conviction clause when you're investing in something on the one hand (401K) and denying the benefit on the other hand on religious grounds.

In fact, I think it might be illegal for Hobby Lobby to interfere with employee' 401(k) contributions.

It's not illegal dummy they match as do most companies. I digress I know what you're trying to imply here. ;-)

So, if employees invest in Pfizer, which makes a LOT of drugs, not just birth control pills because Pfizer provides a good return, then Hobby Lobby can't do shit about it.

Uhh back up again. If Employees invest in Pfizer then it means they're investing in a company that Hobby Lobby decided in tandem with the plan administrator / manager to include as part of the portfolio offering. These investments are regularly as in quarterly discussed between Company directors and plan administrators. If not being discussed then HL employees should take the matter up to the Dept. of Labor to investigate HL before not doing their jobs and potentially making bad investment offerings (due to negligence) on behalf of their employees 401K plans.

HL can instruct plan managers to remove Pfizer from their portfolio / offering on the grounds of religious conviction at their next quarterly meeting and if employees who like the investment (because it is a good one) choose to sue them then it's likely HL can appeal to the conservative justices on the Supreme Court and win their case just as they did on the benefits side. The point is you're blatently lying or just flat out don't know what the fuck you're talking about by stating HL has nothing to do with the offering and simply leaves it to the plan administrator. How convenient for you to wash Hobby Lobby's hands for them by feigning ignorance. ;-)

So, what was your point again?

My points are well documented not my fault you don't understand what's going on out there.

Personally I have a sneaky suspicion that Hobby Lobby is investing some of it's cash on hand or cash they have on their balance sheets in the stock market and particularly in these Pfizer type companies. I'm sure their financial statements of overnight investments could reveal that but what they're specifically investing in may not be public record. Again I just don't get how you come off trying to act like they have no idea or cannot direct the plan administrator or manager of the investment option they think makes the most sense.

All they did in going to the supreme court was show just how little they actually practice their faith when it comes to investing their money. Originally Posted by ExNYer

See comments in red

More delaying.

You'll never put up.

And why would I hide even if you did? Originally Posted by ExNYer

You swore you wouldn't hide from my response. Oh well. Keep searching the internet for a rebuttal. Lol

You swore you wouldn't hide from my response. Oh well. Keep searching the internet for a rebuttal. Lol Originally Posted by Zanzibar789

It took you THREE days to post your dopey answer above and then you complain when I don't response in barely more than one day?

Try to remember - some of have real jobs. I will respond when I am ready.

It took you THREE days to post your dopey answer above and then you complain when I don't response in barely more than one day?

Try to remember - some of have real jobs. I will respond when I am ready. Originally Posted by ExNYer

Lol real jobs? I guess you dont understand the concept of "letting you think about it" as opposed to " I will respond when I'm ready"

Go ahead and continue searching the interwebs for an answer because no matter what you find you already showed your hand with your initial response. You really have no clue how the process works. Fit that square peg into a round hole.

It took you THREE days to post your dopey answer above.... I will respond when I am ready. Originally Posted by ExNYer

Don't be in a hurry. Make him wait. Zanyzit is a complete phony. He started a thread 5 months ago and had his ass handed to him. All he could do was deflect with lame bullshit like the posts below. He never responded and the thread died.

Lol... Instead of indulging you I want you to think about your question for a min perhaps the obvious answer will come to you. Originally Posted by Zanzibar789

Still waiting for a response?... I guess when I decide to respond it's gonna be a real doozy. Please maintain your keen anticipation. ;-) Originally Posted by Zanzibar789

Hey PseudoEinstein are you ready for me to answer your question with brilliance? Originally Posted by Zanzibar789

Don't be in a hurry. Make him wait. Zanyzit is a complete phony. He started a thread 5 months ago and had his ass handed to him. All he could do was deflect with lame bullshit like the posts below. He never responded and the thread died. Originally Posted by lustylad

Lol. Don't encourage the buffoon to not respond at all. I'd really like to hear what he has to say. He's scouring his resources to find an answer for me. Haha its hilarious to watch. When people are wrong after being so arrogant as he was they will go to no length to spin the truth. Fox news does it daily.

I've responded to everyone that has thrown some shit at me including your lazy ass. Lol I take that back because I did leave Sins of Flesh hanging as I couldn't figure out if she was worthy of a response. Sometimes I get that way if I start to think you're crazy. That's why I'm responded to less and less drivel.

And Lazy lad feel free to respond to my phony BS if you're able to. Lol

I've responded to everyone that has thrown some shit at me including your lazy ass... Originally Posted by Zanzibar789

No, you haven't. Now you are flat-out lying. I just posted examples where you said you would respond in time, and you never did!

Did you forget to wear your panties today, zanypuss?

No, you haven't. Now you are flat-out lying. I just posted examples where you said you would respond in time, and you never did! Originally Posted by lustylad

Hey O Lazy one. You provided some quotes but no context. Be specific what do I owe you an answer on?

Answering my 401k questions on Hobby Lobby for ExNYer in this thread would go a long way in proving you're more than just an empty dungaree and straw hat. LoL

Hey O Lazy one. You provided some quotes but no context. Be specific what do I owe you an answer on?

Answering my 401k questions on Hobby Lobby for ExNYer in this thread would go a long way in proving you're more than just an empty dungaree and straw hat. LoL Originally Posted by Zanzibar789

Listen, you don't "owe" me anything. You made one of your sweeping moronic comments about how "capitalism caused Bush to crash the economy". That comment by itself told everyone how clueless you are. No need to bump old threads and regurgitate your stupidity. I only brought it up to show everyone how you deflect and stall whenever you have your ass handed to you. And then you lie about it afterwards.

As for the 401(k) issue, I already addressed it in #37.

.

Listen, you don't "owe" me anything. You made one of your sweeping moronic comments about how "capitalism caused Bush to crash the economy". That comment by itself told everyone how clueless you are. No need to bump old threads and regurgitate your stupidity. I only brought it up to show everyone how you deflect and stall whenever you have your ass handed to you. And then you lie about it afterwards.

As for the 401(k) issue, I already addressed it in #37.

. Originally Posted by lustylad

Everything I've ever said in this forum has been spot on. At no time nor in any instance have you ever come close to a reasonable rebuttal. It's not my fault you're an uneducated Hillbilly who's delusional about what he doesn't know.

Everything I've ever said in this forum has been easily rebutted. At no time nor in any instance have I ever come close to holding my own in an argument. It's not your fault I'm an uneducated Hillbilly who's delusional about what he doesn't know. Originally Posted by Zanzibar789

There ya go, zanypuss, ftfy. Now it's spot on.

"Legalized abortion appears to account for as much as 50 percent of the recent drop in crime."
Let's just go ahead and rip this Band-Aid right on off: Economists John Donohue and Steven Levitt (aka the Freakonomics guy) make a compelling case that our massive 20-year plunge in violent crime is partly due to legalized abortion. They note that our crime rate began its decline precisely 18 years after Roe v. Wade -- in other words, right around the time that all those legally aborted fetuses would have reached prime gangbangin' and liquor store robbin' age. Furthermore, they also noted that the states that experienced the sharpest crime drop in the '90s were the ones that performed the most abortions in the '70s and '80s. Their final conclusion?
"Legalized abortion appears to account for as much as 50 percent of the recent drop in crime."
That's right: According to Donohue and Levitt, as much as half of the recent crime rate cliff drop can be attributed to legalized abortion. There are a few theories as to why this might be the case, each more likely to get us yelled at than the last. Essentially, more abortions mean fewer impoverished, teenaged and single mothers, and studies have shown that kids born into those situations are more likely to turn to crime.

See comments in red Originally Posted by Zanzibar789

So here is the answer to your multifaceted stupidities.

First, don't use words if you don't know what they mean.

"Fiduciary duty" or "fiduciary responsibility" has a particular meaning and, contrary to what you ignorantly believe, it PREVENTS Hobby Lobby from hand picking stocks, unless they are begging to get sued for breach of fiduciary duty.

A ten second search of the Internet would have found this Department of Labor webpage:

http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/publications...nsibility.html

It is the FIRST link that comes up if you Google "employer 401k fiduciary responsibility".

The decision to have a 401k plan is a business decision. However, once that decision is made, the employer has a fiduciary duty to the EMPLOYEE and NOT to the company to take care of the 401k plan. These fiduciary responsibilities are almost entirely financial in nature.

Here is the list of fiduciary responsibilities from the Department of Labor. I have emphasized keywords for your simple minded benefit:
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Fiduciaries have important responsibilities and are subject to standards of conduct because they act on behalf of participants in a retirement plan and their beneficiaries. These responsibilities include:

• Acting solely in the interest of plan participants and their beneficiaries and with the exclusive purpose of providing benefits to them;
• Carrying out their duties prudently;
• Following the plan documents (unless inconsistent with ERISA);
• Diversifying plan investments; and
• Paying only reasonable plan expenses.

The duty to act prudently is one of a fiduciary’s central responsibilities under ERISA. It requires expertise in a variety of areas, such as investments. Lacking that expertise, a fiduciary will want to hire someone with that professional knowledge to carry out the investment and other functions. Prudence focuses on the process for making fiduciary decisions. Therefore, it is wise to document decisions and the basis for those decisions. For instance, in hiring any plan service provider, a fiduciary may want to survey a number of potential providers, asking for the same information and providing the same requirements. By doing so, a fiduciary can document the process and make a meaningful comparison and selection.
Following the terms of the plan document is also an important responsibility. The document serves as the foundation for plan operations. Employers will want to be familiar with their plan document, especially when it is drawn up by a third-party service provider, and periodically review the document to make sure it remains current. For example, if a plan official named in the document changes, the plan document must be updated to reflect that change.
Diversification – another key fiduciary duty – helps to minimize the risk of large investment losses to the plan. Fiduciaries should consider each plan investment as part of the plan’s entire portfolio. Once again, fiduciaries will want to document their evaluation and investment decisions.
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Do you see ANYTHING in that list that would allow an employer to hand pick stocks for exclusion to suit the EMPLOYER's religious beliefs?

The employer has to act solely for the financial benefit of the employee. The company cannot act for its own benefit.

Pharma stocks make big money. So do oil companies.

If a company decides to prevent an employee from investing the employee's money in pharma stock because of the employer's religious beliefs, the company is in BREACH of its fiduciary duty. The company is detrimentally preventing an employee from earning the high returns that pharma stocks yield.

If a company decides to prevent an employee from investing the employee's money in oil stock because of the employer's environmental beliefs, the company is in BREACH of its fiduciary duty. The company is detrimentally preventing an employee from earning the high returns that oil stocks yield.

A company cannot even prevent an employee from investing 401k money in a direct COMPETITOR. Apple cannot prevent employees from investing in Samsung. How do you like them apples?

Harvard University has a huge endowment. If students pressure Harvard to divest its endowment from Israeli companies in sympathy with the Palestinian cause, Harvard can do that if it chooses because the endowment belongs to Harvard.

Bur Harvard cannot prevent its employees from investing 401k funds in Israeli companies because the 401k money belongs to the employees and Harvard would be breaching its fiduciary responsibilities.

EVEN IF they did so at a quarterly meeting, moron.

Now, do you see how that works?

In other words, Zanzibar,

"FIDUCIARY RESPONSIBILITY"

Don't be in a hurry. Make him wait. Zanyzit is a complete phony. He started a thread 5 months ago and had his ass handed to him. All he could do was deflect with lame bullshit like the posts below. He never responded and the thread died. Originally Posted by lustylad

He just had his ass handed to him again. Not that it will make any difference with him.

Lol. Don't encourage the buffoon to not respond at all. I'd really like to hear what he has to say. He's scouring his resources to find an answer for me. Haha its hilarious to watch. When people are wrong after being so arrogant as he was they will go to no length to spin the truth. Originally Posted by Zanzibar789

You just had your ass handed to you again.

That is what happens to you when you don't scour ANY resources. And then come up with the wrong answer.

And you did so arrogantly.

I love the way you strutted around the phrase "fiduciary duty" and then applied it wrongly.

Putz.