The myth of Liberals creating crime...

The cab driver decided to NOT be a victim of an armed robber in New Orleans.No court costs, no prison time. Originally Posted by Why_Yes_I_Do

Gerald Pope died of occupational related causes.

With concealed or Constitutional carry, you do get to choose what crimes you won't be a victim of in many cases. Cuts down on the prison industrial complex and may free up court loads, unless you're Alex Baldwin. Originally Posted by Why_Yes_I_Do

Bullshit. States where people carry are not significantly safer than areas with strict gun laws. Now those of us that are obviously armed may get fucked with less but overall it doesn't change the levels of violence much. If you have some data to show otherwise please post it I think we likely agree on conceal and open carry being a great way to exercise our 2nd Amendment rights.

I understand the stats and the seeming lack of correlation between the rise of crime and whether or not a state is "red" or "blue".

However, it is my belief that a state's political leaning, however you measure it, is n not what is driving the crime thing. The willingness of local prosecutors to bring cages and the willingness of local judges to bring wrong doers to justice is what drives the rise in crime.

The ability of a citizen to legally carry a firearm in public also has little overall effect on this.

A city mayor and local police department can be as proactive asRudi Gulini and the NYPD were in New Youk City during the 1990s, but if the prosecutors and judges do not hold up their end of the judicial process the result will be just as we h=see it across the nation today.

Gerald Pope died of occupational related causes. Originally Posted by Jackie S

Work place accident?

...If you have some data to show otherwise please post it ... Originally Posted by DNinja69

I posted a chite ton of data here, 65 murder capitals and FBI database.

I understand the stats and the seeming lack of correlation between the rise of crime and whether or not a state is "red" or "blue".

However, it is my belief that a state's political leaning, however you measure it, is n not what is driving the crime thing. The willingness of local prosecutors to bring cages and the willingness of local judges to bring wrong doers to justice is what drives the rise in crime.

The ability of a citizen to legally carry a firearm in public also has little overall effect on this.

A city mayor and local police department can be as proactive asRudi Gulini and the NYPD were in New Youk City during the 1990s, but if the prosecutors and judges do not hold up their end of the judicial process the result will be just as we h=see it across the nation today. Originally Posted by ICU 812

Most of the posters here lean toward the idea that prosecutors and local judges are more unwilling to pursue crime perpetrators in Democratic controlled jurisdictions.

I posted a chite ton of data here, 65 murder capitals and FBI database. Originally Posted by Why_Yes_I_Do

Actually I believe those were homicide which include murder either way is not the scope of my question. Violence. When you look at high levels of violence perpetrated the numbers clearly show issues across the country. Red. Blue. Purple. Does not lessen to any real degree with Republican leadership.

We currently have debates that will at some point address crime and I am sure we will again here 'oh but Biden' and 'the left causes the issues' but there won't be any candidate standing up to say 'but my area is good' because that simply is not true.

We can argue that Liberal big cities don't do nearly enough and in some areas it is out of hand. Absolutely. Then what? If Texas and Alabama can't make any real progress using these outdated law enforcement models and locking people up at high rates is not working... Then what?

At this point, after 5 pages, the conclusion can be drawn that the OP is not going to let go of his initial proposition that liberal policies create an environment for crime is a myth.


Is there any reason to continue here ?

Let go of? Based on what?

I hear this myth spoken on literally every day. Mostly in person but absolutely online and in the media. When I look at daily arrest info for areas where I and other family live (mostly RED states) the truth is right there for anyone to see. Identity theft. Prowling neighborhoods pilfering anywhere that isn't locked down and many places that are. Meth production. Pill peddlers in Wal Mart parking lots. Sexual assault. Shootings. This is a serious issue for me maybe those who live in the supposed Republican safe zones just aren't speaking up so we won't want to move there lol..

Telling people to shush why? Is the subject painful for you? Does a little light being shed on Conservative political dysfunction upset your apple cart? We need some reform in this area across the board. More accountability. Better training. Less emphasis on 'find a way to lock them up' which feeds the attorney pool and generates lots of billed hours but at the expense of making better actual impact on what is happening in our neighborhoods.

If you feel its just a political agenda then that is my point in a nutshell. Can we not set some politics aside and for the good of everyone find some common ground? I won't be moving to NYC, SF, etc. But we are not going to see much change when 'back the blue' chants are used as campaign slogans while fingers are pointed to the left as we are seeing done today. Your doctor doesn't use a procedure manual from 1972 why should law enforcement?

Your original title says it all about your position, and you haven't paid a bit of attention to the posts here.
You use the same word here....."myth".



That is why it looks pointless to continue.

And that is where you lose me. I have looked at every post and many of them (per usual with me can't speak for others) inspired a good amount of research outside what was posted. But the word myth is distasteful?

Again this is my overall point. We are asked to pick sides. Media does it. Friends do it. Politicians insist on it. My side is citizens. We fund a multi-trillion dollar government and many of us have 10 hands in the pocket where our wallets are needing $$$ but then when we look around at what we get for that investment it sure seems the results are well on the light side of fair. Maybe you or I don't use the new library but it serves its function and was needed. Cool. Maybe the need for road expansion is too costly so we wait. Ok. But some functions of government are much more vital. I hope to see less party politics and more actual work done to improve the results of our investment in law enforcement.

My hope is that people don't take my word for much or believe a chart that tells a sliver of the story. Do some research. Ask your mayor, council person, sheriff... when there are issues not being addressed in your locality. The more voices demanding better results the better chance we have of our $$$ going to solutions.

Your statements have turned to mush.


No is asking you or anyone to pick sides. Yet you did from the beginning. Didn't you see the data ?

Or maybe you did see the data. Then you fluster the debate with - is it crime.....or is it violent crime.....or are homicides the most violent crime......blah, blah, blah.

Like all politicians you complain about the problem and offer no solution.

Why not just solve everything by telling us what to do to decrease all types of crime ?

Your statements have turned to mush.


No is asking you or anyone to pick sides. Yet you did from the beginning. Didn't you see the data ?

Or maybe you did see the data. Then you fluster the debate with - is it crime.....or is it violent crime.....or are homicides the most violent crime......blah, blah, blah.


Why not just solve everything by telling us what to do to decrease all types of crime ? Originally Posted by VitaMan

First you say shush then you want to direct the commentary. Now you just don't like what I have to say. Cool. That is the nature of a forum. I shall continue to comment in ways that make sense to me. You are welcome to do with them as you wish.

My last comment spoke directly to the concept of addressing crime in more functional ways. But you can't speak on that. All good. Maybe try to focus more on the issues than the person speaking on them. Just some advice from an observer.

Let go of? Based on what?

I hear this myth spoken on literally every day. Mostly in person but absolutely online and in the media. When I look at daily arrest info for areas where I and other family live (mostly RED states) the truth is right there for anyone to see. Identity theft. Prowling neighborhoods pilfering anywhere that isn't locked down and many places that are. Meth production. Pill peddlers in Wal Mart parking lots. Sexual assault. Shootings. This is a serious issue for me maybe those who live in the supposed Republican safe zones just aren't speaking up so we won't want to move there lol..

Telling people to shush why? Is the subject painful for you? Does a little light being shed on Conservative political dysfunction upset your apple cart? We need some reform in this area across the board. More accountability. Better training. Less emphasis on 'find a way to lock them up' which feeds the attorney pool and generates lots of billed hours but at the expense of making better actual impact on what is happening in our neighborhoods.

If you feel its just a political agenda then that is my point in a nutshell. Can we not set some politics aside and for the good of everyone find some common ground? I won't be moving to NYC, SF, etc. But we are not going to see much change when 'back the blue' chants are used as campaign slogans while fingers are pointed to the left as we are seeing done today. Your doctor doesn't use a procedure manual from 1972 why should law enforcement? Originally Posted by DNinja69

Conservative? VitaMan is more liberal than you are. He and I have been on your side more often than not since you started posting in the political forum. But we're not in this thread. That should tell you something.

In your original post, you appeared to blame violent crime in America on conservatives, and we responded in kind. (I'm not including VitaMan in "we" here.)

The situation is indeed more complicated. Why do cities in states like Louisiana, Alabama and Arkansas, run coincidentally or not by Democrats, dominant the list of the most violent places in America, in your link in your OP?

Look at the larger picture. The countries with the highest homicide rates in the world are in the Caribbean and certain Latin American countries. As you say, it's not a function of melanin though. Most countries in Africa have much lower homicide rates, with certain exceptions like South Africa. As do South American countries that had small indigenous populations.

What places with high homicide rates have in common is a history of exploitation and oppression. The Spaniards exploited the natives in the New World. They were little more than slaves. And the slave owners and slave traders did the same in the Caribbean and the American South. It was a brutal life for the oppressed.

The end of slavery in America was followed by 100 years of further oppression, with Jim Crow laws and the like.

And who was responsible for this? Who enabled it? Well, the Democratic Party. A Republican government ended slavery with the Civil War, and Republicans overwhelmingly voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Now, in 2023, the racists in the Democratic Party are mostly dead and gone. My friend Adav8s28 argues they just joined the Republican Party, but he's wrong IMO. I think the problem now is what we have left over from history, not racism and exploitation in today's America like what we had in the past.

So how do we move forward? What's the long term solution? Well, McCain had a good point, look at poverty. Two things that would help,

1. Better schools that prepare people for the real world. Give kids the ability to become plumbers, mechanics, doctors and lawyers instead of gang members.

2. More help to poor kids and poor single mothers.

The Democrats could do more to promote "1", and the Republicans could to more to help with "2".

It would also be great if most poor kids had both parent involved in their lives when they were growing up. That would help them economically and developmentally. But how to accomplish that is way beyond my paygrade.

One other comment, about another topic you brought up, incarceration rates. DucButter linked to a video of a speaker who formerly was a Progressive who worked for George Soros. I'll link to it below. Anyway, the guy now calls himself a liberal instead, and he shares our view that incarceration rates are too high. However he believes progressives missed the boat, when they just started turning people out onto the street. His solutions are more emphasis on helping prisoners and others with mental health, and drug rehabilitation. And also instead of locking people up, using probation and the like more frequently. All good ideas IMHO.

Originally Posted by Ducbutter

Some do confuse my appreciation for personal freedom and harsh words for bad Republicans as being Liberal. Fair enough just not accurate at all. The word RINO gets used at times which just generally proves my points as I do not work off a playbook from any party or political agenda. I stay about Justice and Liberty which both can be worked towards whatever side of the fence you want to be on. My OP spoke on the right using what I consider to be a myth about Liberals being the source of violent crime in America. I did not come up with the myth but it is perpetuated daily and often as a cloak to hide under so Conservatives can claim either they are doing better (which I agree with but better isn't nearly good enough) or more often in my experience that Democrats specifically are the root of the issues. I call bullshit on that. 100%

You make some solid points on historical factors. I also recall Bill Clinton devoting resources to law enforcement and seeing some pretty good results in regards to violent crime. I don't approve of everything he did and continue to embrace my 2nd Amendment rights though not nearly as absolutely as many we do need some regulations in place to be fair.

McCain did have some good points and I agree poverty is factor to be looked at in the equation. More trade based education whether through vocational programs in schools or allowing high school students to choose those paths that are endorsed by our school system through partnerships with private entities would be a welcome change in my opinion.

Daycare is a big issue with single parents and I would much rather see free service provided in that area than programs funding without provisions to get that parent into school or the workforce. Sensible solutions that would not cost any more than we are currently paying just shift the focus to opportunities vs handouts. Agreed.

On the subject of incarceration I won't pretend to have many answers as I do understand not from being an inmate but a lot of life experience seeing the results of being in lockup that the practice of exercising control in prisons is far greater said than done. Life inside moves in ways that no written laws or corporate mission statements have much impact on but for sure we cannot continue to create these inmate welfare communities where non-violent offenders mix with all sorts of other criminals.

This is the kind of discussion I would like to believe our mayors, governors, and members of congress would engage in but it seems that is not very likely anytime soon. Both sides have a lot of work to do. There are similar issues in education which I see as a way to help address the issues by giving real priority to basic reading and math skills in preparation for later options where we teach marketable skills and try to instill work ethic once those initial concepts are achieved.

We are all paying for these solutions but not getting many results. For me that is the biggest concern. Putting our tax dollars to work toward solutions and demanding our elected officials make better effort. Currently we are often faced with no real alternatives. Vote for the lame ass candidate the floated to the surface or let 'the other side' do their thing which far too often includes agenda based ideas rather than actual work being done.

With the idea of return on investment this is how I rank 3 areas that are to me of vital importance without regard to parties at all but nationally


Education - D+
Law Enforcement - C
Social Security - F

To me these are not political issues as they literally involve everyone. Neither party should 'get their way' when we are all subjected to these public services and I am appalled at how badly we have handled some of these over the past few decades.