Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 - Do you beleive the "official cover story"?

It's inexplicable why commercial airlines continued to cross through a war zone.

In recent months, the rebels have shot down numerous Ukrainian military aircraft using short-range surface-to-air missiles....

Ukrainian military aircraft — including two over the past two days — have been shot down in eastern Ukraine. Yet commercial aircraft have routinely flown over the conflict zone, although at heights thought sufficient to avoid risk.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...348_story.html

Ukraine and Russia have traded several accusations of cross-border hostilities in recent days. The Russian Foreign Ministry, for instance, warned of potentially “irreversible consequences” after a man was killed in the Russian city of Donetsk, which shares the same name as the regional capital in eastern Ukraine where rebel forces have been regrouping in recent days. The Russians said the man was killed by a mortar shell fired from the Ukrainian side of the border.

Ukraine, in turn, has accused Russia of firing a rocket that destroyed an Antonov-26 military transport plane on Monday, and Ukraine also accused Russian military planes of carrying out an airstrike that destroyed a residential building and killed 11 people in the town of Snizhne on Tuesday morning.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/wo...et.html?recp=8

It's obvious from the taped and released telephone conversation that the rebels did not properly identify their target and, shortly afterwards, they knew they had fucked up.

The conversation:

"We have just shot down a plane. That was Miner's group. It fell down outside Enakievo."

"Pilots? Where are the pilots?"

"Set off to search for the shot down plane and take pictures of it. A plume of smoke is visible..."

"How many minutes ago?"

"About 30 minutes ago."

A separate recording captured an alleged conversation between two rebels identified as "Major" and "Greek."

It appears the rebels did not know they had shot down a commercial passenger plane.

Analysts said it's possible that the passenger jet was mistaken for a Ukrainian military aircraft.

Ukraine security service intercept calls:

"The plane broke into pieces in the air, close to Petropavlovskaya mine. There is the first two-hundredth (dead), we have found the first two-hundredth. It's a civilian."

"Well, we are 100% percent sure that it was a civilian plane."

"Are there any weapons?"

"Nothing at all. Civilian belongings, medical scraps, towels, toilet paper."

A third recording, supposedly of a conversation between a fighter and a Cossack commander, said MH17 should not have been flying in the area, with a war going on.

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/focus/07/...own-mh17-plane

By Bloomberg News
Published: 2:00 AM - 07/18/14

There is one important reason Ukrainian authorities are so sure that pro-Russian rebels shot down a Malaysia Airlines jet: An account on the Russian social network Vkontakte, which relays official dispatches from insurgent military leader Igor Girkin, aka Strelkov, boasted about the rebels shooting down a plane at about the time of the crash.

The Boeing 777, on its way from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur with 295 people on board, crashed between the village of Grabovo and the mining town of Thorez in the Donetsk region of eastern Ukraine. Air-traffic controllers lost touch with it at 4:20 p.m. local time, pravda.com.ua reported.

The Vkontakte account reported at 5:37 p.m. Moscow time (4:37 in Donetsk) that a large plane — identified as an Antonov An-26 transport plane, "has just been shot down near Snizhne," a town close to where the Malaysia Airlines plane went down. This appears to be an edited version of a gloating post that is available only in screen shots now

In that initial version, the post went on: "We warned them not to fly in our skies. And here's a video of another bird going down. The bird fell behind a coal heap, residential areas were not hit, peaceful people did not suffer." http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbc...0339/-1/NEWS14

Early on the "intelligence reports" were that it was not an SA-11 missile and the launch was not from Ukrainian soil ... the "An-26 story" was not "bullshit" since one was shot down earlier in the week with almost 50 personnel lost, and there were phone conversations intercepted by U.S. intelligence between a Ukrainian and a Russian discussing a downed cargo plane yesterday morning with lots of profanity between the two on the phone ... and then the "facebook" announcement of a cargo plane shot down was removed ...

.. it is "convenient" to keep the SA-11 story alive, because the "rebels" have SA-11's from Russia, which the Russians were training them to use. It was reported that there are SA-20's in Russia near the Ukranian border where the plane was shot down. The Ukranians did not have SA-20's.

If it's a bunch of crazy rebels who accidentally shot down a passenger plane then "we" don't have to do anything about it .... and Putin gets a pass!!!!!

Then "we" can get back to "our vacation" ... all is good in the world, and happy! Originally Posted by LexusLover

I'm not sure what your point is, especially with the "scare quotes".

But the An-26 shot down last week doesn't mean that it isn't bullshit THIS time if the rebels say that thought the 777 was an An-26. If the target was at 33,000 feet, there was no way they could make a mistake like that because no one could look a the tiny dot and say "That's an An-26" and expect us to believe it was an honest mistake.

My original point - in response to the two PICTURES of an An-26 and a 777 - was that no one confused the planes VISUALLY. Because all there was to see was a dot.

The detection and shoot-down was done by radar.

Also, I don't see how the Russians are off the hook if the Russian-backed rebels shot it down. The US has already stated as much. The rebels are their client army. We have already upped the ante on sanctions on the Russians.

It appears that either system (S-11 or S-20) could have shot the jet down.

The US now appears to be saying (again) it was an S-11.

There isn't going to be any real investigation of this - at least not of the wreckage.

It is pretty clear the Russian separatist rebels - and possibly the Russians themselves - shot down the plane.

But the wreckage landed in rebel-held territory. So they have the evidence of their own crime.

I don't see any reason why the rebels would allow the wreckage to be inspected if the inevitable result is to cement the guilt of the rebels and/or the Russians.

I would expect them to cite "security concerns" and refuse any outside inspection of the wreckage, the crash site, or their own radar data.

We are going to have to piece this together with intelligence information from our own military radar and satellite systems. Originally Posted by ExNYer

Well that didn't take long.

The headline (for now) on the CNN homepage is "Armed Men Limit Investigators".

Hide the evidence much?

Here is the article the headline links to:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/18/world/...html?hpt=hp_t1

Fun quote:
----------------------------
"International monitors investigating the Malaysia Airlines crash in eastern Ukraine said Friday the team was not given full access to the site and was greeted with hostility by armed men guarding the scene.

"It basically looks like the biggest crime scene in the world right now, guarded by a bunch of guys in uniform with heavy firepower who are quite inhospitable," Michael Bociurkiw, spokesman for the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe team, told CNN's Christiane Amanpour."
--------------------------------

Or check Ebay...Oh, wait they don't do weapons.

Edit: I just found one on Craigslist - Istanbul. They wrote it up like it's a radio controlled hobby helicopter but it's obviously a SA-11 Originally Posted by boardman

Does it come with it's own sophisticated Russian radar/navigation team?

Those pro-Russian thugs won't be able to stop the hoards of investigators, recovery teams and reporters. There are 295 bodies (intact or otherwise) that need to be retrieved, identified and returned to angry, grieving relatives. What are those tough guys going to do - keep everyone away while the bodies rot in the fields? I don't think so. The world is watching these bastards. I would pay close attention to what happens to the plane's black box. Putin has to decide if he wants to make it disappear or not. If it doesn't turn up, things could get a lot uglier.

I believe it was shot down by a sam under the control of trained military personal. the big question is who's military. some have sad this could get ugly i do not think that will be the case this is going to get down right mean and scary

Those pro-Russian thugs won't be able to stop the hoards of investigators, recovery teams and reporters. There are 295 bodies (intact or otherwise) that need to be retrieved, identified and returned to angry, grieving relatives. What are those tough guys going to do - keep everyone away while the bodies rot in the fields? I don't think so. The world is watching these bastards. I would pay close attention to what happens to the plane's black box. Putin has to decide if he wants to make it disappear or not. If it doesn't turn up, things could get a lot uglier. Originally Posted by lustylad

I believe it was shot down by a sam under the control of trained military personal. the big question is who's military. some have sad this could get ugly i do not think that will be the case this is going to get down right mean and scary Originally Posted by skirtchaser79411

Realistically, nothing is going to come from this.

Ultimately, the Russians will just say "Oops! It was an accident. Just like the one you Americans had."

"What's that?", you say.

I am talking about this - Iran Air Flight 655:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Back in 1988, the USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian commercial jet - An Airbus A300 - killing 290.

The Vincennes crew thought it was an F-14 Tomcat, which was flown by only two nations at that time - the US Navy and Iran. The Vincennes had been in a skirmish with Iranian gunboats and mistakenly thought the Airbus was descending, rather than climbing, and misidentified it as communicating on military channels instead of civilian ones.

Ok, it was 26 years ago. But the Russians can still point to it and say that we made the same mistake.

What then?

I'm not sure what your point is, especially with the "scare quotes".

But the An-26 shot down last week doesn't mean that it isn't bullshit THIS time if the rebels say that thought the 777 was an An-26. If the target was at 33,000 feet, there was no way they could make a mistake like that because no one could look a the tiny dot and say "That's an An-26" and expect us to believe it was an honest mistake.

My original point - in response to the two PICTURES of an An-26 and a 777 - was that no one confused the planes VISUALLY. Because all there was to see was a dot.

The detection and shoot-down was done by radar.

Also, I don't see how the Russians are off the hook if the Russian-backed rebels shot it down. The US has already stated as much. The rebels are their client army. We have already upped the ante on sanctions on the Russians.

It appears that either system (S-11 or S-20) could have shot the jet down.

The US now appears to be saying (again) it was an S-11. Originally Posted by ExNYer

The AN-26 has a service ceiling of 26,000 ft. No way that a competent murderer did not know that it was NOT an AN-26.

I am talking about this - Iran Air Flight 655:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Back in 1988, the USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian commercial jet - An Airbus A300 - killing 290.

The Vincennes crew thought it was an F-14 Tomcat, which was flown by only two nations at that time - the US Navy and Iran. The Vincennes had been in a skirmish with Iranian gunboats and mistakenly thought the Airbus was descending, rather than climbing, and misidentified it as communicating on military channels instead of civilian ones.

Ok, it was 26 years ago. But the Russians can still point to it and say that we made the same mistake. Originally Posted by ExNYer

The Russians can "say that" ...

.... they can say anything, including it was Bush's fault.

What then? It depends on who's responding to them. But the Iranian airliner incident is apples and oranges ... and the Malaysian airliner was at 33,000 feet and there is NO EVIDENCE reported that it vectoring in other than a straight line across Ukraine about very close to being out of Ukranian airspace .... not the case with the Iranian airliner, which was changing courses and was on a heading toward the Vincennes ... there was also evidence that the Vincennes attempted to communicate verbally with the aircraft on various frequencies and transmitted warnings.

BTW: There were indications the airliner was intentionally flown in the manner in which it did to "attract" attention and to appear to be a threat, if it were not going to be used as a weapon itself.... it was a lose-lose for the Vincennes.

Finally, the U.S. admitted involvement and damages were paid.

Wtf do you suggest peter breath? Originally Posted by WTF

My suggestion would be for you to stop sucking Bigkotex's cock after he buttfucked you. But since you find that impossible, try mouthwash.

<=Bigkotex smilicons added for emphasis

Does it come with it's own sophisticated Russian radar/navigation team? Originally Posted by thathottnurse

Nyet.

That (Capt Sully's landing) was the most perfect water landing possible with such a jet, which even has landing stabilization software when it senses the ground (or level surface of the water) to level the wings, on relatively calm waters versus open ocean, and yet the engine was ripped off. ..... Originally Posted by Jewish Lawyer

Not according to WTF. He said anyone of thousands of pilots could have made that landing.

Does it come with it's own sophisticated Russian radar/navigation team? Originally Posted by thathottnurse

On June 29, the separatist rebels -- purportedly Ukrainians -- bragged about capturing two BUKs on/from an A-1402 military base in Ukraine. Hence, there are Ukrainian soldiers -- former and present -- who were trained to use this weapon. No Russians are required if competently trained Ukrainians are in the rebel forces.

Ukrainian government forces maneuver antiaircraft missile launchers Buk as they are transported north-west from Slovyansk, eastern Ukraine Friday, July 4, 2014. (AP Photo/Dmitry Lovetsky)
http://lethbridgeherald.com/news/wor...el-stronghold/

A standard Buk battalion consists of a command vehicle, target acquisition radar (TAR) vehicle, six transporter erector launcher and radar (TELAR) vehicles and three transporter erector launcher (TEL) vehicles. A Buk missile battery consists of two TELAR and one TEL vehicle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system



See @ 4:35

It appears the rebel separatists only employed one TELAR vehicle w/o the command vehicle and TAR. Perhaps the command vehicle and/or TAR vehicle have an array of systems that would have have better identified the target than the TELAR alone could.

Bob Latiff, a former US weapons developer for the air force and the CIA and now a professor at Notre Dame University, said he leaned towards a belief that it was a case of mistaken identity on the part of those who pressed the button.

"A radar return from an airplane like this would look very similar to that from a cargo plane, as was initially claimed by the separatists. If radar was all they were using, that is a shame," he said. "All airliners emit identification signals which identify the aircraft and provide other information like altitude and speed. They also operate on known communications frequencies. It doesn't sound like the separatists were using any of this.

"My guess is the system's radar saw a return from a big 'cargo' plane flying at 30,000 ft or so and either automatically fired, or some aggressive, itchy operator fired, not wanting to miss an opportunity."

Latiff said that if they had only one radar, as Ukrainian officials suggest, it would have been pointed at the target. A second, rotating one would normally have been part of a battery to pick up other planes in the immediate vicinity, but he said even that would not have established whether it was a commercial plane and there would normally have been communications equipment to pick up signals showing the plane was non-military. http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...s-mh17-removed

Based on the "assumption" it was an 11 from Ukranian soil.

The Vincennes shoot down was completely different. You had a plane that was squawking a code identifying it as a Iranian fighter jet that suddenly dropped down from a cruising height to a much lower altitude. It began what looked like an attack run before it was verbally warned off by the Vincennes. At a point after a plane could have fired weapons the Vincennes shot it down. The US air craft were first on the scene and videotaped bodies in the water. Naked bodies, naked white bodies of people that looke like they were already dead. The Iranians warned the US forces away from the scene and the US complied. The Iranians NEVER published a list of the dead of a plane that was supposed to be on an international flight. There is a difference.

There is a difference. Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

Damn, I actually agree with JD! There is a significant difference between the Vincennes and the Malaysian 777.

However, this is an extremely delicate International matter and in the court of public opinion, outrage currently rules the day. As well it should! With time the outrage has a tendency to subside.

Assuming the Soviets will be seen as a partner to the crime (and that certainly appears to be the case) then much of the blame will shift to them and less to the group that actually fired the missile. If for no reason than the Soviets could have easily put a stop to the escalation months ago and the bastard's chose not to do so. If there is heavy International pressure to do so, I believe Putin will be forced to respond. Even though he would prefer not to.

I believe that time will eventually take its toll and hopefully cooler heads will soon prevail. Perhaps that is wishful thinking on my part! If that ends up being the case, I would think that time will eventually work in the bastard's, errr Soviets favor.

I could see a scenario developing that the Soviets will at some point in the not too distant future, make an appeal that both instances (Vincennes and the Malaysian 777) were tragic, in a desperate attempt to link the two together. Even though there are very, very few similarities!

That would then make it much easier for them to follow that up with something along the lines of:

Let's learn from our mistakes and move on.

That argument would probably play well in the International Court. And make no mistake about it, this is an International crisis. In fact, I personally believe the European Union should be taking the lead in this situation. However, the realist in me recognizes that we will probably assume control.

Unfortunately, we always do!