What i wanna know. IS why are these forest firs "Trumps fault"..
Why were they not obama's fault when he was in office, or Bush's fault?
- garhkal
- 11-19-2018, 02:45 PM
- Lantern2814
- 11-19-2018, 03:01 PM
If blame is to be layed out for this, it lies right at the feet of Governor Moonbeam. He vetoed all efforts to remove the dead trees and underbrush, despite warnings and requests from the electric companies (you know , those people who actually run the wires through that area) and other groups. Then again, common sense is in short supply in California.
- WTF
- 11-19-2018, 07:39 PM
- dilbert firestorm
- 11-19-2018, 11:13 PM
Its' moon time!!!!
Moooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!! !!
thats' guv moonbeam mooing!
Moooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!! !!
thats' guv moonbeam mooing!
- Oralist
- 11-20-2018, 06:19 AM
I found this to be an interesting article about California's Wildfire issues. Not taking anyone's side on this.
As Governor Brown and President Trump slug it out in the court of public opinion over who is to blame for the California wildfires, you might be interested in the perspective of an old outdoorsman (me) who has hunted, fished, camped, and cut firewood in the mountains of Northern California for almost fifty years. In the interest of full disclosure, my father was a logger in the 50s, 60s and 70s. In fact, the problem began in the seventies. Back then, the public attitude towards logging in California was just beginning to turn against the industry. Eventually California only wanted clean industries such as high tech, and we shunned messy industries like logging to the point where numerous lumber mills were forced to close and loggers became an endangered species like the spotted owl. Thanks to extreme environmentalism, California became hostile to even sustainable logging where mature trees were thinned and new trees were planted by the timber companies and the Forest Service. With that background in mind, here are a few of the reasons for why we have had such catastrophic fires this season:
1. As I mentioned, California has become hostile to logging. The hostility has come mostly from environmental groups and left-leaning political leaders who run the State. This means that the trees and brush have not been thinned, except on a very limited scale, for almost half a century. Many people don’t know that logging used to occur on Forest Service land as well as timber industry land. As I write this I think of a small ridge in the National Forest where we have hunted deer for many decades. Thirty-five years ago, you could see for hundreds of yards down the sides of the ridge if you were standing in the Forest Service road on top of the ridge. Today the young trees are over forty feet high. The brush is over your head and so thick that a human being could not possibly walk through it. You can’t see 20 feet beyond the edge of the road. This practice of letting the timber and the brush go unchecked has spread throughout public and private lands throughout our mountains. For a while the timber companies sprayed the brush with herbicide, but then they seemed to stop altogether, likely due to environmental concerns.
2. PG&E (our utility company) has not done a good job of keeping their power lines clear. Their rates to consumers are not cheap, but apparently they don’t have the funds to clear their lines in the mountains. Where PG&E spends its ample revenue is unclear to me.
3. In the 90s, Republican leadership in Washington severely cut the budget of the Forest Service.
4. Millions of people have moved to California since the 70s, many of them choosing to live in the mountains and foothills. Large numbers of people from the San Francisco Bay Area and Southern California have also moved to the mountains to escape the rat race (who can blame them). Unfortunately many of these people did not know how to live in a rural mountainous environment. They did not clear brush or thin trees on their land to create a defensible space in case of fire. In many cases the law, backed by environmental groups, prevents homeowners from cutting down certain trees on their own land.
5. Some portions of the National Forest still permit what is called "dead-and-down" cutting of trees for firewood. It’s a policy that enables private citizens to get a permit to cut a limited amount of dead trees that have fallen to the ground for firewood. But many cities, in an effort to reduce air pollution during the winter, no longer permit developers to build homes with wood-burning fireplaces. This had the unintentional effect of reducing the demand for firewood. It goes to show how there are often unintended negative consequences to policies that had good intentions.
6. The bark beetle has killed millions of trees in California, which adds even more fuel to the fire.
7. California sits on the edge of a vast western desert. We have significantly less rain than other western states such as Oregon and Washington. When we go through years of drought, the unchecked trees, brush, and wild grasses become dry and ripe for a fire, especially if conditions are windy.
8. Many Californians blame global warming for these catastrophic fires. As an outdoorsman, I have indeed sensed a slight change in our climate. It seems to stay drier and warmer for longer than it used to when we transition from summer into fall. I do not know if this is a permanent change or just an outlier on the histogram. Even if global warming is real, it is not enough to explain these massive fires.
9. Californians repeatedly elect officials from the Democrat Party to run the State. This has had the negative effect of over-empowering the extreme environmentalism that has embedded itself in the Party that runs the State. As they say, elections have consequences.
No doubt there are other contributing factors that could be added to the list. But the bottom line is this: humans need to manage our forests. If we fail to manage the forests, Mother Nature will do it for us, and her methods are rather unpleasant … which at this moment must be all too obvious.
As Governor Brown and President Trump slug it out in the court of public opinion over who is to blame for the California wildfires, you might be interested in the perspective of an old outdoorsman (me) who has hunted, fished, camped, and cut firewood in the mountains of Northern California for almost fifty years. In the interest of full disclosure, my father was a logger in the 50s, 60s and 70s. In fact, the problem began in the seventies. Back then, the public attitude towards logging in California was just beginning to turn against the industry. Eventually California only wanted clean industries such as high tech, and we shunned messy industries like logging to the point where numerous lumber mills were forced to close and loggers became an endangered species like the spotted owl. Thanks to extreme environmentalism, California became hostile to even sustainable logging where mature trees were thinned and new trees were planted by the timber companies and the Forest Service. With that background in mind, here are a few of the reasons for why we have had such catastrophic fires this season:
1. As I mentioned, California has become hostile to logging. The hostility has come mostly from environmental groups and left-leaning political leaders who run the State. This means that the trees and brush have not been thinned, except on a very limited scale, for almost half a century. Many people don’t know that logging used to occur on Forest Service land as well as timber industry land. As I write this I think of a small ridge in the National Forest where we have hunted deer for many decades. Thirty-five years ago, you could see for hundreds of yards down the sides of the ridge if you were standing in the Forest Service road on top of the ridge. Today the young trees are over forty feet high. The brush is over your head and so thick that a human being could not possibly walk through it. You can’t see 20 feet beyond the edge of the road. This practice of letting the timber and the brush go unchecked has spread throughout public and private lands throughout our mountains. For a while the timber companies sprayed the brush with herbicide, but then they seemed to stop altogether, likely due to environmental concerns.
2. PG&E (our utility company) has not done a good job of keeping their power lines clear. Their rates to consumers are not cheap, but apparently they don’t have the funds to clear their lines in the mountains. Where PG&E spends its ample revenue is unclear to me.
3. In the 90s, Republican leadership in Washington severely cut the budget of the Forest Service.
4. Millions of people have moved to California since the 70s, many of them choosing to live in the mountains and foothills. Large numbers of people from the San Francisco Bay Area and Southern California have also moved to the mountains to escape the rat race (who can blame them). Unfortunately many of these people did not know how to live in a rural mountainous environment. They did not clear brush or thin trees on their land to create a defensible space in case of fire. In many cases the law, backed by environmental groups, prevents homeowners from cutting down certain trees on their own land.
5. Some portions of the National Forest still permit what is called "dead-and-down" cutting of trees for firewood. It’s a policy that enables private citizens to get a permit to cut a limited amount of dead trees that have fallen to the ground for firewood. But many cities, in an effort to reduce air pollution during the winter, no longer permit developers to build homes with wood-burning fireplaces. This had the unintentional effect of reducing the demand for firewood. It goes to show how there are often unintended negative consequences to policies that had good intentions.
6. The bark beetle has killed millions of trees in California, which adds even more fuel to the fire.
7. California sits on the edge of a vast western desert. We have significantly less rain than other western states such as Oregon and Washington. When we go through years of drought, the unchecked trees, brush, and wild grasses become dry and ripe for a fire, especially if conditions are windy.
8. Many Californians blame global warming for these catastrophic fires. As an outdoorsman, I have indeed sensed a slight change in our climate. It seems to stay drier and warmer for longer than it used to when we transition from summer into fall. I do not know if this is a permanent change or just an outlier on the histogram. Even if global warming is real, it is not enough to explain these massive fires.
9. Californians repeatedly elect officials from the Democrat Party to run the State. This has had the negative effect of over-empowering the extreme environmentalism that has embedded itself in the Party that runs the State. As they say, elections have consequences.
No doubt there are other contributing factors that could be added to the list. But the bottom line is this: humans need to manage our forests. If we fail to manage the forests, Mother Nature will do it for us, and her methods are rather unpleasant … which at this moment must be all too obvious.
- rexdutchman
- 11-20-2018, 08:44 AM
I told you somehow this would turn into Dumpers fault. ( what bs) BUT they saved tree frogs , and the eco-warriors got what they wanted.
- Munchmasterman
- 11-20-2018, 11:55 AM
I'd like to add, as a major contributer, economic reasons ( which is a big part of the political). Opposition to management has lessened to a degree and the fires have been changing minds too.
The cost of removing the fuel and what are you going to do with it once you collect it.
The main reason trump was added to mix on this thread was that someone who is now banned kept touting that the currsnt admin policies were being implemented.
Moot point.
How trump really comes in is by opening his tweet hole and blaming California for the whole mess.
When you consider @60% of the land is under federal management, there's plenty of blame for humans as well as envioronmental reasons.
Now add global warming deniers whose logic goes;
There is no human involment in the climate of Earth. But there is human involvement in the fires. It's the liberal's fault.
So take global warming out for a moment. Recap.
Large amount of fuel.
Higher than normal winds.
Drought.
Hottest summer on record.
Rains are late.
The fuel is bone dry.
More residential sections with cleared trees but lots of brush.
Like we've both said, plenty of reasons. As far as which party is in power, the politicians do what the donors want. Expensive forest management isn't high on the repubs agenda.
The cost of removing the fuel and what are you going to do with it once you collect it.
The main reason trump was added to mix on this thread was that someone who is now banned kept touting that the currsnt admin policies were being implemented.
Moot point.
How trump really comes in is by opening his tweet hole and blaming California for the whole mess.
When you consider @60% of the land is under federal management, there's plenty of blame for humans as well as envioronmental reasons.
Now add global warming deniers whose logic goes;
There is no human involment in the climate of Earth. But there is human involvement in the fires. It's the liberal's fault.
So take global warming out for a moment. Recap.
Large amount of fuel.
Higher than normal winds.
Drought.
Hottest summer on record.
Rains are late.
The fuel is bone dry.
More residential sections with cleared trees but lots of brush.
Like we've both said, plenty of reasons. As far as which party is in power, the politicians do what the donors want. Expensive forest management isn't high on the repubs agenda.
I found this to be an interesting article about California's Wildfire issues. Not taking anyone's side on this.
As Governor Brown and President Trump slug it out in the court of public opinion over who is to blame for the California wildfires, you might be interested in the perspective of an old outdoorsman (me) who has hunted, fished, camped, and cut firewood in the mountains of Northern California for almost fifty years. In the interest of full disclosure, my father was a logger in the 50s, 60s and 70s. In fact, the problem began in the seventies. Back then, the public attitude towards logging in California was just beginning to turn against the industry. Eventually California only wanted clean industries such as high tech, and we shunned messy industries like logging to the point where numerous lumber mills were forced to close and loggers became an endangered species like the spotted owl. Thanks to extreme environmentalism, California became hostile to even sustainable logging where mature trees were thinned and new trees were planted by the timber companies and the Forest Service. With that background in mind, here are a few of the reasons for why we have had such catastrophic fires this season:
1. As I mentioned, California has become hostile to logging. The hostility has come mostly from environmental groups and left-leaning political leaders who run the State. This means that the trees and brush have not been thinned, except on a very limited scale, for almost half a century. Many people don’t know that logging used to occur on Forest Service land as well as timber industry land. As I write this I think of a small ridge in the National Forest where we have hunted deer for many decades. Thirty-five years ago, you could see for hundreds of yards down the sides of the ridge if you were standing in the Forest Service road on top of the ridge. Today the young trees are over forty feet high. The brush is over your head and so thick that a human being could not possibly walk through it. You can’t see 20 feet beyond the edge of the road. This practice of letting the timber and the brush go unchecked has spread throughout public and private lands throughout our mountains. For a while the timber companies sprayed the brush with herbicide, but then they seemed to stop altogether, likely due to environmental concerns.
2. PG&E (our utility company) has not done a good job of keeping their power lines clear. Their rates to consumers are not cheap, but apparently they don’t have the funds to clear their lines in the mountains. Where PG&E spends its ample revenue is unclear to me.
3. In the 90s, Republican leadership in Washington severely cut the budget of the Forest Service.
4. Millions of people have moved to California since the 70s, many of them choosing to live in the mountains and foothills. Large numbers of people from the San Francisco Bay Area and Southern California have also moved to the mountains to escape the rat race (who can blame them). Unfortunately many of these people did not know how to live in a rural mountainous environment. They did not clear brush or thin trees on their land to create a defensible space in case of fire. In many cases the law, backed by environmental groups, prevents homeowners from cutting down certain trees on their own land.
5. Some portions of the National Forest still permit what is called "dead-and-down" cutting of trees for firewood. It’s a policy that enables private citizens to get a permit to cut a limited amount of dead trees that have fallen to the ground for firewood. But many cities, in an effort to reduce air pollution during the winter, no longer permit developers to build homes with wood-burning fireplaces. This had the unintentional effect of reducing the demand for firewood. It goes to show how there are often unintended negative consequences to policies that had good intentions.
6. The bark beetle has killed millions of trees in California, which adds even more fuel to the fire.
7. California sits on the edge of a vast western desert. We have significantly less rain than other western states such as Oregon and Washington. When we go through years of drought, the unchecked trees, brush, and wild grasses become dry and ripe for a fire, especially if conditions are windy.
8. Many Californians blame global warming for these catastrophic fires. As an outdoorsman, I have indeed sensed a slight change in our climate. It seems to stay drier and warmer for longer than it used to when we transition from summer into fall. I do not know if this is a permanent change or just an outlier on the histogram. Even if global warming is real, it is not enough to explain these massive fires.
9. Californians repeatedly elect officials from the Democrat Party to run the State. This has had the negative effect of over-empowering the extreme environmentalism that has embedded itself in the Party that runs the State. As they say, elections have consequences.
No doubt there are other contributing factors that could be added to the list. But the bottom line is this: humans need to manage our forests. If we fail to manage the forests, Mother Nature will do it for us, and her methods are rather unpleasant … which at this moment must be all too obvious. Originally Posted by Oralist
- I B Hankering
- 11-20-2018, 12:08 PM
.
Why the increase in explosive wildfires?
The summer of 2003, while serving as a Boy Scout Forestry merit badge counselor, I took three of our scouts to a National Forest Ranger Station in Northern California to interview a forest ranger. We were ushered into a high-ranking ranger office where all four walls were covered with bookshelves filled with thick binders floor to ceiling. The ranger sadly explained that he spent three-quarters of his time dealing with injunctions that environmentalist groups have filed against logging companies to keep them from going into the forest to harvest dead trees. Pointing to his walls, the ranger quipped that the binders were filled with all the injunctions.
The ranger detailed for the scouts that the environmentalists tie up the logging companies in court for so long that eventually, the trees become full of beetles and no longer profitable to harvest and then the injunction is dropped. He said it will now cost billions of dollars to clean up the forests, whereas, if the loggers were allowed in, they could clean up the forests and generate a revenue stream for State and National Forests.
The ranger, while shaking his head, indicated that the environmentalists have been doing this for years and are hurting the forests as it has caused an extraordinary number of dead trees in the forests. He explained that this not only provides more tinder for catastrophic crown fires (vs. healthy and regularly occurring creeping fires which clean out the forest floor), but also attracts bark beetles which causes the trees to die. The ranger further explained that because of environmentalists not allowing for controlled burns in populated areas and fire suppression in wilderness areas that a disastrous situation has been created in the forests.
He glumly predicted that when not if, a major fire gets out of control in the Tahoe basin, that it will be explosive with fast-moving fires with large loss of life since there are only three major ways in and out of Lake Tahoe area.
Bottom line, the devastation we are seeing in CA right now is man-made…by the leadership of your environmentalist groups and their fellow traveler friends in government…NOT the myth of global warming.
Ted Nugent
- dilbert firestorm
- 11-20-2018, 12:30 PM
california.. they had a lot of rain this year? drought ended?
the article posted by lexuslover where Park williams notes something strange about the fires raises a good point.
the article posted by lexuslover where Park williams notes something strange about the fires raises a good point.
- Munchmasterman
- 11-20-2018, 12:31 PM
- Munchmasterman
- 11-20-2018, 12:36 PM
- I B Hankering
- 11-20-2018, 12:43 PM
Ted Nugent also claim to go on raids and other enforcement (armed) activities. All such claims debunked.It's easy to see that it is the Park Service Ranger who is the "source": Nugent is just the "reporter".
He's just like trump. He says anything to back his side of the story. Just like you'll use any source.
Ted nugent's mussings aren't a real source. Originally Posted by Munchmasterman
One need only look at why Ft Ord in California was shuttered: it was all about local politics controlling what federal employees could and could not do on federal land. It's disingenuous to ignore the obvious.
- the_real_Barleycorn
- 11-21-2018, 03:16 AM
Now Jerry Brown has had to admit that Trump was onto something. He is talking about managing the forest better by allowing some cutting and clearing. The radical left is absolutely against this. They'd rather burn people and animals than trees.
- dilbert firestorm
- 11-21-2018, 03:32 AM
Now Jerry Brown has had to admit that Trump was onto something. He is talking about managing the forest better by allowing some cutting and clearing. The radical left is absolutely against this. They'd rather burn people and animals than trees. Originally Posted by the_real_Barleycorn
some of those judges are to blame. they threw common sense out the window when applying law to those situations.
the environmental wackos are one of the stupidest people on this planet. they don't give a shit who they hurt so along as their version of natural nature is protected.
problem with natural nature is that the natural part went out the window more than 100 years ago. prolly like more than 1000 years ago when the indians started forest managment practices.
- rexdutchman
- 11-26-2018, 11:01 AM
Oh BUT NOW its all because of global warming But the liberals set the west on fire, by not allowing clear cutting and burns just saying . You guys should read The Really inconvenient truths by I Murray it explains a lot with empirical proof and research.