Bill Clinton is a total madman

Oh and I forgot to mention the tens of millions killed in China by the communists after they took over there. Maybe 30 million?

Yeah I have to agree with the CIA in those days.

Nazism never tried to overthrow and destroy the whole freakin' world like the communsts tried to do.

Was the CIA overzealous in those day? Hell yeah!

Okay maybe CIA did go over the line when they conspired with Lyndon Johnson to assassinate John Kennedy. That was way over-zealous.

I just read the last couple of pages on this thread and I am amazed at some of the posts. If I get it right the basics are that while systematic mass murder of Jews occurred in WWII it was not as bad as the communists or as stated. I have met a survivor of the ghetto in Poland and the camps. I will accept his stories over anything posted here especially since he freely points out that he was helped by German soldiers at times. The other argument that the commies were worse is kind of silly. At a certain point the numbers are so large that the degree is irrelevant.

This is simply a mind blowing discussion by some. COG you will never be able to claim to be the craziest member. This is so crazy there is no way you will be able to match it.

My point isn't so strange, in fact it's accepted by everyone who worked in US intelligence in the cold war.

The point is that the CIA assisted Nazi criminals in escaping Europe to South America. Then the CIA brought back the entire Nazi intelligence service under it's head Reinhard Gehlen, and it became the West German Intelligence service which still exists.

This wouldn't have happened were it not for all the facts I've put forward, and the moral dimension does apply here.

Whereas the Nazis atrocities applied only to one or two racial and ideological groups in Europe, the communists sought to overturn the entire social and economic basis for freedom and prosperity all over the world - including in the US.

Compared to what the Nazis did, as bad as it was, the threat of communism was far worse, and their crimes and atrocities were on a much vaster scale.

As part of this there is the matter of the exaggeration of German war crimes by the Russians and allies after the war, and the controversy which has arisen since much doubt is now cast on the genocide story.

I'd still like someone, anyone, to explain why so many thousands of people from Nazi occupied countries volunteered to fight on the German side against the Russians. All of these volunteers were sent into units to fight on the eastern front, and entire divisions of these volunteers were created. For that matter the Germans also held a huge number of Russians who volunteered to fight against their own Soviet government under Russian General Vaslov.

People here just aren't aware of the horror with which people in Europe viewed the prospect of a Soviet hegemony. That also explains why anti-communism and anti-semitism came to be fused in eastern Europe during the war.

If your argument is that Stalin was a worse mass murderer than Hitler I will agree with you. He had more time and opportunity than Hitler. But does it really matter? When you are dealing with millions of victims the distinction becomes unimportant.

As for the CIA, they were in a war and used anyone they could. I doubt they were always ethical in their choices but they had a mission and did what they needed to to accomplish it.

I would never give the benefit of the doubt to the CIA. Whenever you have to use the phrase "I'm sure they had a good reason . . ." to justify actions which would otherwise be criminal, you know they had no good reason.

For Austinescorts: I will try to be civil, but your concept of history is at best seriously distorted and dangerous. There weren't any ovens? Football leagues at Auschwitz? You must be joking? The Nazi mass murder of Jews, Poles, Gypsies, Russians, etc., is very well-known and documented. In fact, it was very well documented by the Nazi's themselves. I suggest you google Bergen-Belsen, Sobibor, Ravensbruck, Dachau, etc., to seen the evidence. Eisenhower, Patton, Montgomery, Edward R. Murrow, etc., all saw the aftermath of the camps. There is film of the British Army having to use bulldozers to move the corpses at Belsen because there were too many to be moved any other way. Figures for the total number murdered general are ranged at about 11 million civilians, not counting millions more who died in Russia during the fighting. Your other statements are equally disturbing and dangerous and show a total lack of knowledge or reason. I suggest strongly that you stop frequenting far-right wing neo-Nazi sites and read some serious history. Start with the memoirs of Albert Speer, one of the convicted Nuremberg Nazis.

I'm not good at providing links because I don't read from the internet. I tend to read books.

Any history of the CIA will reveal that the US operated the "rat line" in which former Nazis escaped, and that the entire Nazi intl apperatus was revived and became the West German intelligence service.

You can go to Youtube and see many documentaries about the Nuremberg trials and the subsequent admissions that there were no gas chambers in any of the 22 camps except for those in Poland. All those documentaries show that the Polish government removed the "5 million deaths" monument from Auschwitz.

If you read any of Gore Vidal's essays about the war period he explains clearly what everyone knew but didn't want to admit.....that the US officer corps was pro-German and hated the communists. Patton was just the most vocal after the war. I mean for crying out loud it was the Soviets who attacked Finland and the Baltic states, as well as conquering more of Poland in 1939 than the Germans did! How could anyone reading the papers miss that.

There were reasons why such people as Charlse Lindberg, Joseph Kennedy, and countless others less known were pro-German. But once war came everyone had to tow the line or face the consequences. War is funny that way.

The biggest thing FDR did however was join with Stalin in 1942 and shock the world by declaring that the US would not negotiate any peace with Germany, and would fight until Germany was totally occupied, conquered, and it's government overthrown. Until this shocking announcement most Americans thought the war would bring about an armistice and peace agreement like all other wars.

The Germans had been making peace proposals to the British continuously since the beginning of war in 1939. The Nazis even sent Rudolf Hess to Britain in a parachut to try to make peace happen. He remained in jail with no one allowed to speak to him until he was killed fifty years later. Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

Mr. Bill without any bullshit links.

Can't provide links because you read books? What books? Titles? Authors?

Documentaries on youtube? Like alien autopsies?

Here is a link for you. It has lots of books referenced. And you have obviously never read any of them.

Thank you for helping me to understand birthers.

http://www.adl.org/holocaust/response.asp

Mr. Bill without any bullshit links.

Can't provide links because you read books? What books? Titles? Authors?

Documentaries on youtube? Like alien autopsies?

Here is a link for you. It has lots of books referenced. And you have obviously never read any of them.

Thank you for helping me to understand birthers.

http://www.adl.org/holocaust/response.asp Originally Posted by Munchmasterman

Actually I provided several names of scholars who've written on the subject but you ignore that so here they are again:

Raul Hilberg, Jean-Claude Pressac, Simon Weisenthal, Yehuda Bauer, Arno Mayer and Paul Fiaursson [sp].

I also included a link to youtube for a factually-based debate between revisionist Mark Weber and a skeptic.

For Austinescorts: I will try to be civil, but your concept of history is at best seriously distorted and dangerous. There weren't any ovens? Football leagues at Auschwitz? You must be joking? The Nazi mass murder of Jews, Poles, Gypsies, Russians, etc., is very well-known and documented. In fact, it was very well documented by the Nazi's themselves. I suggest you google Bergen-Belsen, Sobibor, Ravensbruck, Dachau, etc., to seen the evidence. Eisenhower, Patton, Montgomery, Edward R. Murrow, etc., all saw the aftermath of the camps. There is film of the British Army having to use bulldozers to move the corpses at Belsen because there were too many to be moved any other way. Figures for the total number murdered general are ranged at about 11 million civilians, not counting millions more who died in Russia during the fighting. Your other statements are equally disturbing and dangerous and show a total lack of knowledge or reason. I suggest strongly that you stop frequenting far-right wing neo-Nazi sites and read some serious history. Start with the memoirs of Albert Speer, one of the convicted Nuremberg Nazis. Originally Posted by davec.0121

Dangerous? You are exaggerating.

There were 30 crematorium furnaces [not "ovens" as your state] in two buildings at Auschwitz, each with a capacity of incinerating one body per hour. The cremitoriums were in two buildings which were mortuaries, for the disposal of victims of desease, which was rampant in the camps. There is no way that only 30 crematorium furnaces could have processes hundreds of thousands of bodies as the "gas chamber" claims suggest.

The figures of 11 million deaths have long since been refuted by the US and every other government, including the government of Poland since they were set free from communist tyranny. Raul Hilberg and Simon Weisenthal claim today that only 5.1 million Jews were killed, not 6 million, and that only 2.7 million were killed in death camps. The Polish government in their monument at Auschwitz today claims that 1.5 million died there of all causes, and Hilberg says only 1 million were killed there.

As for there being a soccer field and theater there it's just well known, and that's from the thousands of people who were there as well as the actually camp blueprints and US Army Air Corps pictures from 1944.

But here, see for yourself:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbBMJiBRRKE

If your argument is that Stalin was a worse mass murderer than Hitler I will agree with you. He had more time and opportunity than Hitler. But does it really matter? When you are dealing with millions of victims the distinction becomes unimportant.

As for the CIA, they were in a war and used anyone they could. I doubt they were always ethical in their choices but they had a mission and did what they needed to to accomplish it. Originally Posted by Laz

The point isn't who killed more people.

The point is that Nazism didn't threaten to overturn capitalism and replace it with a system where owners, intellectuals, and so forth were all murdered or made into slaves, and nothing was left except a grim totalitarian state-controlled beehive.

Nazism was a threat to only 1% of the population of Europe and any communists trying to impose their "revolution" by force on everyone else.

It has to do with ideologies and which ideology was closer to our traditional values and the basis for our social organization and liberties.

To be honest I'm a huge critic of the CIA in the cold war, and I think they way over-reacted and did a lot of stupid and blood thirsty, ruthless things that didn't need to be done. Included in this was the genocide of a million people in Indonesia in 1965, as well as the Vietnam war, which was totally a CIA issue all the way back to 1954.

But I've got to say that the German military and intelligence services were not only necessary for American vital interests, they were culturally compatible. There was no more animosity between the CIA and former SS officers than there was between former SS officer Werner Von Braun and the leadership of NASA.

This wouldn't have been possible if they were the monsters portrayed by the allies and Russians after the war.

Most of them were civilized though over-zealous people.
The Bolsheviks and their kind were anything but civilized. They were raping, murdering animals.

The point isn't who killed more people.

The point is that Nazism didn't threaten to overturn capitalism and replace it with a system where owners, intellectuals, and so forth were all murdered or made into slaves, and nothing was left except a grim totalitarian state-controlled beehive.

Nazism was a threat to only 1% of the population of Europe and any communists trying to impose their "revolution" by force on everyone else.

It has to do with ideologies and which ideology was closer to our traditional values and the basis for our social organization and liberties.

To be honest I'm a huge critic of the CIA in the cold war, and I think they way over-reacted and did a lot of stupid and blood thirsty, ruthless things that didn't need to be done. Included in this was the genocide of a million people in Indonesia in 1965, as well as the Vietnam war, which was totally a CIA issue all the way back to 1954.

But I've got to say that the German military and intelligence services were not only necessary for American vital interests, they were culturally compatible. There was no more animosity between the CIA and former SS officers than there was between former SS officer Werner Von Braun and the leadership of NASA.

This wouldn't have been possible if they were the monsters portrayed by the allies and Russians after the war.

Most of them were civilized though over-zealous people.
The Bolsheviks and their kind were anything but civilized. They were raping, murdering animals. Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

You seem to be obsessed with making the point that the Nazis were not so bad because the communists were worse.

You forget some basic points:

1) Two wrongs don't make a right. Even if the communists killed more people, that does not reduce or mitigate in any way the harm caused by the Nazis. So stop telling us what the Bolsheviks did every time somebody points out to you the fallacies you are spreading about the Holocaust.

2) Before WWII, the Nazis put Jews in ghettos and restricted their rights. But they refrained from exterminating them until after the war started - at which point they figured they had nothing to lose. So, the Nazis did essentially all of their killing between September 1939 and May 1945. That is less that 6 years. The killing by the communists was spread out over about 70 years. If the rest of the world had not united to stop the Nazis, how many "inferior" people they would have killed in 70 years?

3) You made some utterly inane point about the communists/Bosheviks being some kinds of savages and the Nazis supposedly being civilized and culturally similar to us, which is why they were able to work with the US after the war. You are aware, are you not, that former German scientist and intelligence officers also worked with the Russians after the war? In fact, their German scientists helped them put a man into space before our German scientists helped us put man into space. So, remind me again, who is savage and who is civilized?

4) What makes you think the Nazis were pro-capitalist? And even if "Nazism didn't threaten to overturn capitalism", how does that make genocide acceptable? If the Nazis were concerned about global warming, would that make it OK to rid the world of Jews? Frankly, your premise that "Nazism didn't threaten to overturn capitalism" is bullshit in any event. Neither the Nazis nor the communists were supporters of free market capitalism as we understand that idea. BOTH ideologies were command economies that attempted to subvert commerce and property to the wants and needs of the state. The Nazis were smart enough to leave most property in the hands of private interests (that's where the competent people are), but those interests were subordinate to state directives and needs. Germans, particularly the wealthy, were taxed heavily to support powerful government institutions. Nazism and communism are BOTH excellent examples of why smart thinking people support small government.

You seem to be obsessed with making the point that the Nazis were not so bad because the communists were worse.

You forget some basic points:

1) Two wrongs don't make a right. Even if the communists killed more people, that does not reduce or mitigate in any way the harm caused by the Nazis. So stop telling us what the Bolsheviks did every time somebody points out to you the fallacies you are spreading about the Holocaust.

2) Before WWII, the Nazis put Jews in ghettos and restricted their rights. But they refrained from exterminating them until after the war started - at which point they figured they had nothing to lose. So, the Nazis did essentially all of their killing between September 1939 and May 1945. That is less that 6 years. The killing by the communists was spread out over about 70 years. If the rest of the world had not united to stop the Nazis, how many "inferior" people they would have killed in 70 years?

3) You made some utterly inane point about the communists/Bosheviks being some kinds of savages and the Nazis supposedly being civilized and culturally similar to us, which is why they were able to work with the US after the war. You are aware, are you not, that former German scientist and intelligence officers also worked with the Russians after the war? In fact, their German scientists helped them put a man into space before our German scientists helped us put man into space. So, remind me again, who is savage and who is civilized?

4) What makes you think the Nazis were pro-capitalist? And even if "Nazism didn't threaten to overturn capitalism", how does that make genocide acceptable? If the Nazis were concerned about global warming, would that make it OK to rid the world of Jews? Frankly, your premise that "Nazism didn't threaten to overturn capitalism" is bullshit in any event. Neither the Nazis nor the communists were supporters of free market capitalism as we understand that idea. BOTH ideologies were command economies that attempted to subvert commerce and property to the wants and needs of the state. The Nazis were smart enough to leave most property in the hands of private interests (that's where the competent people are), but those interests were subordinate to state directives and needs. Germans, particularly the wealthy, were taxed heavily to support powerful government institutions. Nazism and communism are BOTH excellent examples of why smart thinking people support small government. Originally Posted by ExNYer

1.So far no one has pointed out any "fallacies" about the holocaust I'm telling. So far all there's been is assertions of the "fact" that 6 million Jews were killed. To belabor the point let me explain again what I think the facts are according to the evidence.

a.Out of 50,000 survivors interviewed in the USC Shoah project very few claim that genocide or death camps existed, and most of those people have been shown to be liars.

b.The Nazis always left paper documentation of their atrocities, but there is no documentation at all about gas chambers, death camps, or any genocide. The huge German records archives show nothing.

c.The British officers who tortured Germans in 1945 to obtain their cofessions for the Nuremberg trials have confessed themselves, and the Germans tortured have recanted their previous testimony.

d.There were not enough furnaces at any camp to dispose of more than a few hundred bodies per month.

e.There is nothing in the British or US archives supporting death camps, although the British were capturing all the radio traffic from the camps in which death tolls were given daily.

f.All the Jewish scholars of the issue [including Simon Weisenthal] have recognized that the allied claims of gas chambers in Germany and other places subject to research before 1990 were false claims.

g.The Polish government has removed the 4 million deaths monument at Auschwitz and replaced it with one saying 1.5, but there is no more documentation about the latter number than there was for the former - both were made up from nothing.

2.You're just dead wrong here.
The Germans didn't put any Jews in ghettos before the war....NONE.
How you can be sooo wrong about this basic fact and claim to know ANYTHING about the topic, well.......

The facts are that Jews were put in ghettos in Poland, and then taken to camps later on.

In many other places like Italy and Hungary the Jews were COMPLETELY UNDISTURBED until 1944 when they were evacuated to labor camps because of the material needs of the war. If there were a policy of genocide adopted at the Wannsee Conference why did they keep so many Jews totally undisturbed for so long?

In Germany thousands of Jews served in the armed forces, hundreds of them as officers.

In Germany there were only less than 500,000 Jews in the whole country when the Nazis took power in 1933, and then maybe half of them left. By the time of the war there were only about 200,000 Jews in Germany, and after the war there were how many? Find out and do the math. The facts are there would have been no Jews left after the war if the "6 million killed" were true. Three million went to Israel, over a million to the US, and several million who stayed in Europe. Where the Jews were really killed in large numbers [1.5 million] was in eastern Europe where the Germans shot them.

3.The German scientists in Russia after the war were slaves.

Werner Von Braun [an SS Officer] and his team of scientists were CELEBRITIES.

The Germans didn't rape women, round up all landowners, intellectuals, etc. and enslave them or murder them everywhere they went like the Russians did. Germans, even the SS, were educated,cultured and moral people, some of whom were zealous revolutionaries. Anyone who knows anything about the CONDUCT of the war and after knows that the Russian communists were simply barbaric animals.

4.The Nazis were of course the most vigorous of all groups opposed to communism. Their economic and social policies were of course CAPITALIST because IT WAS THE GERMAN INDUSTRIALISTS WHO FUNDED THEM AND PUT THEM IN POWER.
Germany was not a command economy. One reason why so many people came to like the Nazis was because while all the democracies were wallowing in poverty and unemployment in the 1030s THE NAZIS ELIMINATED ALL UNEMPLOYMENT BY 1935.

Hindenberg had to appoint Hitler at Chancellor because no matter how many elections they had THE NAZIS COULD NEVER WIN A MAJORITY. The majority of the German people didn't want the Nazis [only the bankers and industrialists and veterans did]. But because the Nazis performed an economic miracle while all the democracies did nothing won the public to them. Then when the Hitler re-gained the German lands lost in 1919 without a war the public FELL IN LOVE WITH HIM. He became WILDLY POPULAR.

Personally I wish the Nazis hadn't come to power, and I'm opposed to tyranny of any kind.

But 1932 in Germany was an emergency in which the state was threatened by communism and economic collapse. There were reasons why Hindenberg and the industrialists and bankers [many of which were Jewish and gave money to Hitler] put Hitler in power.

As I think we can all agree Hitler's war policies ultimately DESTROYED GERMANY.

Hitler was wrong.

Austinescorts: you lie. There is no other way to put it. For example, Simon Wiesenthal spent most of his life hunting Nazis, who he accused of murdering millions. Since you read books, read his. The Nazis did keep records of their mass murder. For example, the Wannsee Conference in January 1942, where the Nazi authorities (SS, SD, Gestapo, party chancellery, etc) decided on the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem in Europe (Endlosung), which was systematic mass murder, and put Eichmann in a position of authority to organize and execute the plan. This plan supplemented the sometimes ad hoc action groups operating in occupied Poland and USSR. It's also why most mass deportations from Western countries didn't occur until 1943 or later.

Austinescorts: you lie. There is no other way to put it. For example, Simon Wiesenthal spent most of his life hunting Nazis, who he accused of murdering millions. Since you read books, read his. The Nazis did keep records of their mass murder. For example, the Wannsee Conference in January 1942, where the Nazi authorities (SS, SD, Gestapo, party chancellery, etc) decided on the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem in Europe (Endlosung), which was systematic mass murder, and put Eichmann in a position of authority to organize and execute the plan. This plan supplemented the sometimes ad hoc action groups operating in occupied Poland and USSR. It's also why most mass deportations from Western countries didn't occur until 1943 or later. Originally Posted by davec.0121

Actually I do not lie....

Simon Weisenthal as well as every other scholar of the Holocaust admitted long ago there were NO gas chambers in ANY of the camps in Germany...PERIOD. And that includes Dachau.

Simon Weisenthal and other holocaust scholars believe that the only gas chambers were at the 6 "death camps" in Poland.

The point is that US prosecutors obtained false confessions from Nazi prisoners at Nuremberg in 1946 that all 22 camps, including those in Germany, had gas chambers.
The Nuremberg trials have been discredited since the 1950s.

The Wansee Transcript is not a document or a record of anything. It's a supposed transcript of a meeting but there's not only no corroboration of it's authenticity, but no where in it does it even mention killing anyone with anything, much less with gas chambers. Everything in the transcript [and I've read it entirely] refers to "evacuation" of Jewish populatons "to the east." The ONLY supposed evidence that "evacuation" meant "killing" was an anwser Eichmann gave to an Israeli prosecutor in his trial in Israel in the 1960s, but he answered every question affirmatively [as well as many known to be false answers] because he was promised a life sentence by his Israeli lawyer if he did so. Israel's constitution forbids capital punishment so he believed this.

The ACTUAL records of deaths of all kinds were in fact kept in detail by the Germans.

Their records report clearly that they shot to death over 1.5 million Jews in the east, as well as a similar number of non-Jewish communist commissars.

The British recorded all the radio traffic every night from each camp, and these reports show how many inmates died and from what causes.

The German records of deaths in all these situations were very detailed. That's the kind of evidence which is lacking for the gas chambers advocates, not one transcript of a meeting about policy.

It's often asked, "Why did the allies not do more to stop the killing at the camps? How could they not have known?"

The answer is because there was no systemmatic killing going on. The international red cross of Switzerland visited EVERY CAMP several times and went everywhere they wanted and their reports were known to the allies.

The camps were work camps, and many Jewish populations such as those in Hungary and Italy weren't even put into ghettos or disturbed in any way until 1944 when they were all finally rounded up and sent to these camps because of the desperate situation of needed war production by the Germans. If you read the Wansee transcript it describes rounding up all the Jews of Europe [except for 40,000 serving in the German armed forces] and sending them all to labor camps. In the transcript there's all manner of dissention because several members thought the idea of using "actors and journalists and medical doctors for manual labor was un-realistic." Does that sound like they were planning TO KILL THEM?

Another way of seeing through the genocide story is by simply adding up all the known Jews in Europe after the war....three million to Israel, one million to the US, two million left in western Europe, and so on....

There couldn't have been 5.1 million killed during the war as Raul Hilberg and others continue to claim BECAUSE THERE WERE MORE THAN THAT MANY ALIVE AFTER THE WAR. In Germany at the outbreak of the war there were only 200,000 Jews in all of Germany, and within months 40,000 were serving in the Wehrmacht and Navy.

There were 1.5 million killed in the east, and probably another 500,000 which died from disease in the ghettos and camps. There were terrible typhus epidemics in the camps. At Auschwitz two mortuaries had to be built with fifteen cremitoria so that hundreds of bodies could be cremated each month. Those fifteen furnaces [what some people call "ovens" as in to bake bread] couldn't have handled the millions of bodies claimed by genocide claimers.

Now I don't think you're a liar, just unfamiliar with the facts as I know them, so please do me the same curtousy.