Knowing better

To preface this one, it's my own fault. While I'm not happy with the outcome of my decisions, in the end, they were my decisions and I can only say that it's unfortunate that some people do not understand how to have someone's back when they do something for you.

But again, it's MY responsibility. And, as a disclaimer, yeah, I'm not above giving karma a nudge here. But this also should serve to illustrate some lessons from the hobby that many others and myself have repeatedly stated.

In the past I chose to help someone out with some fairly hefty expenses and do some nice things that added up to around $1,500. This included some rent, cash, and the sort of things that refresh a young lady (Hair/Nails/Massage/Dinner). With the explicit understanding that this was giving this person a break from a stressful situation and that in return, as this was my hobby budget (and then some), that my hobby activities would be covered for about 2 weeks.

Mind you, I would have been perfectly satisfied with a return of the time and number of calls to match this girl's going rates.

I will also point out that at the time I took this leap of faith, this girl and I did have an arrangement which did include a reduced rate in exchange for a guaranteed expenditure by myself. I gave her my target budget and she set the rate she wanted. It was also assumed that this would continue.

Obviously, since I'm venting, expectations were not met.

What were the warning signs I chose to ignore?

1. Substances. In just about every case where substances are a factor, so is honesty.

2. Honesty. So, the really cute thing is being told that she can't tell lies because she's not a good liar. Then to observe her spin out one on the fly to a third party was really interesting. And there are a few stories that got "corrected" as I spent some time with this person.

3. Too good to be true. Dammit, that one gets me every time. Someone is far too agreeable and makes it like they are really doing you a solid. And when you feel like returning that, well, damn. And, BTW, as it stands, she came out very nicely in the time/money department, probably above her rate if I bothered to add it all up.

4. Too much personal information volunteered. This one took me a while to understand. It's a pretty common tactic with the deceptive. While I happened upon a fair amount of personal information and was able to advise this girl where she failed to protect herself, she did the classic trick of pretending to let me into her life by giving more personal stories. It's a way of pretending to trust you so you feel you can trust them and then you're ripe for the picking.

5. Little miss victim/helpless. The interesting thing about someone acting like they got taken or manipulated is that after a while, when they start talking, they can't and you learn things about them that let you know that there is a good probability that they are not all that innocent. You're led to think someone basically manipulated a girl into providing and that's probably not the case.

A former GF of mine had the philosophy that nothing ever happens to you that you do not ask for in some way.

I'm also reminded of my own words, people do what they fucking want to do.

6. The non-verbal cues. Damned if women do not amaze me the way they can alter they body language to suit their purposes. Fuck, do y'all take lessons in this shit? Blushing on demand? That relaxed, "I feel like I can really trust you" vibe. Seriously, how the fuck do y'all do that? Any females willing to give me a crash course in picking the fake versus the real shit out, PM me. I will compensate for some insight.

7. Too agreeable. Playing the laid-back, whatever you want, I'm going with the flow, oh, that's good advice card. Oh, you're the best. And other little ego flattery strokes.

8. Non-committal/failure to follow through on little things. Actually, I did start picking up on this one. And probably saved myself further wasted investment by doing so.

It's almost comical to watch them go from being very attentive and really keeping in touch to very poor communication after. It's like a dead giveaway. In the end, I have to say, while I got taken for a little ride, I've been taken by smarter than you, babe. Enjoy the short-term gains.

Girls, IDC if you want my money. Fuck, I throw enough of it away as it is. It's fucking DISPOSABLE income. Throw a little damn value my way and you can fucking have it. Do me right and you'll get even more. It ain't that hard. I'm not kidding about what I spend on my "entertainment." Shit, even with me looking to cut back some from my peaks, we're still talking enough for a frugal person to live off. I'm not against a fair trade. But try to use me, that's just crass and there's some other prettier, smarter girl out there that will figure it out and she's going to be living better than you, I'll be happy and you'll still be getting your grind on. (Okay, that was venting...I think it's beer time, LOL)

But hey, on the positive side, one more nice push to exit the hobby. And where I would have been willing to help her out with getting a car, fuck that. I'm out. I would've been pretty happy with a good ATF, but I'll find another way to blow my disposable cash.

BTW, this also serves as a good reminder to refresh myself on the characteristics of the "waif" type Borderline Personality Disorder. There's a lot of commonalities here.

Final word, my fault. Yeah, feel free to comment on my stupidity, naivete, etc. I SHOULD know better. But hey, while I'm jacking off and enjoying a nice break from hobbying, I can work on that shit, right? Originally Posted by Rehke

I could have written that! Guess we all have to learn the hard way. Except I doubt I've learned anything....

This thread should be rated NPR -- No Popcorn Required. However, some folks did try and toss in some kernels and oil. Kudos to both JP and the OP for the amicable and perhaps 'happy ending'

OK, JP is a keeper. You should give lessons JP.

Just stay real, real is the best deal. Originally Posted by bojulay

Thank you. Really. I appreciate it.

+1 to the comments of handling it well despite repeated efforts to make you both look like drama cases. Very well handled by both you and Rehke. I'm glad y'all kissed and made up.

And I hope the make up sex kicked ass!!!

This issue is closed and written off. Lessons learned, thanks all for the feedback.

This issue is closed and written off. Lessons learned, thanks all for the feedback. Originally Posted by Rehke

I am sorry to hear that, dude.

It happens.

Hang in there. You gave it your best shot.

I handle my business ... know all is well in Rehke/Jillian land. Originally Posted by Jillian Price

This issue is closed and written off. Lessons learned ... Originally Posted by Rehke

A lot of pats on the back were passed all around in Rehke/Jilllian Land. It would seem these platitudes may have been offered prematurely and that an update is in order.

What lessons were learned? Does the lady confuse giving the business with handling her business?

Sounds like you just described some of my clients!!! Dearheart, this hobby is what it is and another longtime hobbiest said something very valuable, you've GOT to learn how to play the game!! because in the long run that's what it is!!! If you are looking for love and commitment go to match.com!!! Im sorry sweetie and im sure your intentions were good but you always need to have your eyes very wide open and never expect much!! I would have loved what you did but some others are just simply different. Hope youre next endeavor is more gratifying!!!

Yea man. This is a cash business. You're not going to get a session on credit. If it happens, please show me the unicorn in your backyard. So why would you lend a provider money with hopes of whatever down the road?
These ladies are lovely people...all of them...no matter what. But the nature of the acquaintance is such that we do no favors either way...just honest exchange.

I've had to step away from this one for a while and let my thoughts settle down. But you are right, there is an update in order. And it's time to acknowledge that this bridge is irrevocably burnt.

First off, I've been a asshole to JP. Yup. And I'm about to put a bow on that and be a little more of one because I tried being nice and I got screwed.

So, first lesson...being nice only leaves you vulnerable to being screwed. Not only is this a "business" but it's a nasty one. It's cutthroat and it's not business like any other. It's not one that you can get personal in. It's not a place to have friends or expect people to behave in a reasonably decent manner.

Second lesson...some men need to grow a fucking pair and speak up when a provider is acting badly. Too many on here are too worried about getting some kind of pussy favor instead of doing the right thing. See lesson one.

Third lesson...many men need to pay some close fucking attention to some of the things I've pointed out on this and other threads and figure out how to protect themselves from the same thing. Some of us men are just plain prone to being gamed and others are not. If you are, figure yourself the fuck out and call a girl out when she does this. Yeah, I feel kinda stupid because I should have known better, a few times over. I suspect far too many of us men fall to this kind of shit more often than is documented and I hope that these lessons save you some grief in the future.

Now, let's do some accounting and clean up...

JP did one 30 min session the day after we made the second agreement to square things up after this thread was started. As part of that agreement, she was to give me one time slot daily that I could see her if I could make it. We both knew because of my personal schedule, this was not going to be a daily thing.

That never happened. What did happen was a string of excuses about how she was too busy or had some drama with some "ex" or buying a car or had to take paying calls. She did the classic ducking/welching thing and would say she'd text or call me later and failed to.

Interestingly, I have learned through other channels that the weekend I paid her rent she was hitting up another person to also pay her "rent". That person was saved the trouble by my thread and I would hope would find the balls to come forward and do the right thing.

Like she blamed Piper for all her initial issues, I've been added to the mix and now she likes to blame me and Piper. Also interestingly enough, I have been able to verify the main elements of Piper's accusations and while Piper does have her own issues, she was telling some truth here. I've also found it very interesting that JP has always been telling me that Piper is constantly threatening her, but I have seen evidence that Piper has wanted nothing more than to be left alone by JP. And if anything, it looks more like Piper is holding some leverage in a self-protective fashion. Obviously some conjecture at play here, but things are not what they seem in Jillian-land.

I'm not going to go through the entire list of deceits that I've heard from Jillian, (rent, password hacking, threats, being broke, being too busy, agreements, etc.). But I will say that ALL the crumbs and signs are out there.

Next lesson...research and look at the red flags. If you are interested enough, everything needed to verify or at least collaborate what I've said is publicly available at this time. Things add up in a certain way. And it was totally my own fault for not paying enough attention and not doing enough research before I started down this rabbit hole. If you want to help someone, fine, do your research and pay attention to the warning signs.

Girls (I'm not going to sully the phrase "providers") like this are con artists. And you are not going to ever get back what was supposedly agreed to. Read up on BPD, Waif BPD and High Conflict Personality (particularly in legal situations).

Then go read up on being co-dependent, narcissistic, and other areas that might make you vulnerable to falling into this trap.

In the end, there are too many WK's not willing to grow a pair and speak out when a girl abuses the provider status. And too many willing to curry favor in a conflict when one does. And yeah, some of you just get tired when things drag on. More lessons.

Frankly, I doubt very much this has hurt JP's business anywhere near as much as she claims. I know for a fact that even while she was screwing me over and I was giving her the chance to work things out, she did get at least one positive review from a gent that asked me about her and I, even then, did recommend her as a provider several times.

Make up your own minds and if you think she's worth spending your money on, do what you're going to do anyway. This is my final word on things. She can respond with more of her lies here, she can continue to trash me in private like she has been and if she prefers. Frankly, I don't give a fuck about her business, the money, the lies or any more of the drama that surrounds her like Pigpen's body odor.

As a provider and strictly as that, she's fine and fun. As a person, she's dishonest, and likely to be looking for a way to trick you into thinking she's this victim who is always getting "duped" or "tricked".

In a sense, I'm really sorry, JP, that I had to bring all this out. I could care less about trying to fuck with your business. And while I could write a legit review based on our last call, Ive decided not to put that hit on your profile. However, as a person you did me wrong and you tried to do others wrong. And you did so exactly in the manner you said you were not like other girls.

You're a charming person, and I would have found a way to compromise on all this as late as last night. But, in the end, I've seen too much of this kind of thing from you and others and, for me, the right thing is to bring it to light so that those of us men who are prone to falling for it can possibly protect themselves in the future.

Sadly, you failed to heed me when I told you that there was a lot more in this by being honest with me and square. You got a short-term gain and you're welcome to it. If you had played your cards right, you would have gotten so much more and all you needed to do what what you said you would do.

Final thought...JP, I really hope you find a way to [Forbidden topic removed by staff ]

I'm sorry you had to end up being the example that led me to write this out. I'm sorry that I failed to pay attention to what you were and let myself play my part in creating this situation. I honestly wish we really could have been friends and enjoyed some of the things we have in common.

A lot of pats on the back were passed all around in Rehke/Jilllian Land. It would seem these platitudes may have been offered prematurely and that an update is in order.

What lessons were learned? Does the lady confuse giving the business with handling her business? Originally Posted by JohnnyYanks

As a P.S. I do want to acknowledge in the beginning of our association that JP did give me a really great deal. I probably queered things up by not simply allowing that to run its course. But for a week prior to the events that started this thread, it was very nice.

Of course, that could have just been part of the set-up/TGTBT thing. But since she's complained to me that I left that part out, yeah, she did offer me a significant discount based on a conversation we had regarding my budget target and personal goals. She actually offered better than what I was looking for and claimed that she saw the benefits in it to her. Mind you, I have been accused of "duping" her into that as well in subsequent conversations.

Anyways, I did want to throw that in there since I did neglect to publicly mention that in the first go-round.

I'm just on the outside looking in, but I can't even blame the chick for this one. Nope, sorry Bro. All you had to say was "No". This is all on you. I can't believe you even posted about it to make JP look bad. Because I read it, and my initial reaction was "That was dumb." You could have done an overnight session or anything, but nope.

I'm not judging anyone's character or anything, but the glaringly obvious answer was "No, sorry. I can't help with that." That would have saved you $1500 and your relationship with the provider. But you wanted to move up to "Sugar Daddy" status, so you got the sugar daddy treatment.

All these ladies are wonderful, but we pay them to manipulate us. We want to believe that they like us, that we could have picked them up at the bar, that they are really in to us sexually; and, some genuinely are (but most are not). We pay for fantasy; and, the best providers are masters of manipulation--which is a wonderful thing. We hate mechanical, aloof, and detached. We see it in almost every "No" review.

You let the fantasy get the best of you, my friend. And then you come to the Eccie Alter looking to the Hobby Gods for redemption. Doesn't work like that. Naw bro. You knew better. There are unnumbered stories on this board about "pre-paying" various ladies and the consequences that follow. Not to mention, you're a seasoned hobbyist. So you knew the deal.

Yea, this is on you bro. Charge it to the game and move on. It's not the lady's fault. It's yours. She just played her part in your drama.

I agree that I own my part in this.

However, it takes two to tango and she gets to own her part.

Really, this isn't so much about JP specifically as it is breaking things down in detail so that I and others learn from the experience and how to recognize when you're headed the wrong direction.

We all look bad, all of us. Me, JP, and others. In the end, we all look like what our choices led to.

You want to criticize me, fine. I certainly did the dumbass thing. But failing to hold all parties responsible for their choices, well, that's just BS. Thanks for the feedback, I'll extract what's useful from it.

But, to save some people the trouble:

Lesson - follow established hobby practice, listen the the experienced veterans, pay attention to the numerous times things like this have never worked out.

Lesson - If you're going to hobby, hobby. Don't fall for the illusion, don;t go looking for something else, keep it business.

Lesson - A provider is what she is. If you're a guy and you make this mistake, you're gonna get beat into your head that this is how it always goes down and all providers are like this, no exceptions. As men, we talk about how wonderful these girls are and then when someone falls for that, we beat him up for being stupid. That's as much wanting to have it both ways as anything.

I do like your point about paying them to manipulate us. Might be interesting to fire up a conversation about how much manipulation is "ethical" and where the line gets crossed.

And, of course, it's all about game. And if you're getting game run on you, it's time to stop.

I'm just on the outside looking in, but I can't even blame the chick for this one. Nope, sorry Bro. All you had to say was "No". This is all on you. I can't believe you even posted about it to make JP look bad. Because I read it, and my initial reaction was "That was dumb." You could have done an overnight session or anything, but nope.

I'm not judging anyone's character or anything, but the glaringly obvious answer was "No, sorry. I can't help with that." That would have saved you $1500 and your relationship with the provider. But you wanted to move up to "Sugar Daddy" status, so you got the sugar daddy treatment.

All these ladies are wonderful, but we pay them to manipulate us. We want to believe that they like us, that we could have picked them up at the bar, that they are really in to us sexually; and, some genuinely are (but most are not). We pay for fantasy; and, the best providers are masters of manipulation--which is a wonderful thing. We hate mechanical, aloof, and detached. We see it in almost every "No" review.

You let the fantasy get the best of you, my friend. And then you come to the Eccie Alter looking to the Hobby Gods for redemption. Doesn't work like that. Naw bro. You knew better. There are unnumbered stories on this board about "pre-paying" various ladies and the consequences that follow. Not to mention, you're a seasoned hobbyist. So you knew the deal.

Yea, this is on you bro. Charge it to the game and move on. It's not the lady's fault. It's yours. She just played her part in your drama. Originally Posted by str8.2.bbbj

I don't know that its criticism as much as it's a reminder (not that criticism is bad). I'm not saying you're a bad guy. I'm saying you knew better and said "Fuck It" and JP played her part in the drama of your life.
In the end, it's only money. You'll get more. You're not beat up, traumatized, or removed from this section of time. Let it go and do better next time.
It's all good bro. We've all lost money chasing pussy. That's part of it.

I agree with Rehke. The women that do this need to be exposed if nothing more then knowing who better to say "No" too. There is always a lady who will give the sad puppy dog eyes and say "Well I'm not like the others. I pay people back". That puts a fella in a difficult place.