The author of that quote is the one who is clueless. "MOABs" have been designed, analyzed, and tested for a long time. A lot longer than most people realize. When used they make great photo-opp coverage, but don't really do much to "destroy" a tunnel complex. Some bunkers, yes. Tunnels/caves, not really. Rubbleize the entrance and destroy several meters into the complex, sure--but "destroy"? No.
When you get a chance, look up the DoD definition of "destroy" a tunnel complex. It is generally defined in terms of "closing the adit for a certain amount of time--typically in hours. Not what most consider "destroyed". And if the adversary was indeed destroyed in the first couple cases because they were not deep enough into the caves--guess what their counter is? Yep, move in deeper. They counter a multi-billion dollar munitions development program with a few strong backs.
One reason the USSR collapsed is we got them to spend themselves into it. We didn't learn that lesson very well. (Actually there ARE a number in DoD who have learned it, but they too often get overturned by presidents and Congresses who like photo ops that play well at reelection time.
Originally Posted by Old-T
Yes, there are penetrating versions. And they do indeed work reasonably well against bunkers but not caves/tunnels.
The two big differentiating issues between bunkers vice C&Ts that need to be overcome with C&Ts is size of the mission space, and the depth/knowledge of the depth.
Caves and tunnels can be very large proportional to the lethal radius of the munition, even very big (conventional) munitions. And things like turns, doors, etc., can quickly reduce the effect even more.
If I try to penetrate rock to get to the mission space, I need to know where--in three dimensions--the mission space is. That requires a level of intel that may well not be available for the targets you really care about. You can't watch tunneling underground easily, and with current equipment they can make serious turns, rises, drops, and splits once they are out of sight of your sensors. And if you penetrate into the rock in the wrong place, it is essentially a wasted munition. Add to that, you have serious difficulty assessing what dammage the bomb actually did.
As to entrapping them--many of these complexes have multiple exits, many of which are not used except as emergency exits. Some also can stub out exits, and only finish them from the inside when needed. So if you don't kill them, you might not entomb them as long as you thing.
Originally Posted by Old-T
Were any posting "post after post"?
Or are you just getting hysterical again?
Your description of "the bomb" omits some elements of its value.
ot:
"Caves and tunnels can be very large proportional to the lethal radius of the munition, even very big (conventional) munitions. And things like turns, doors, etc., can quickly reduce the effect even more.
".... You can't watch tunneling underground easily, and with current equipment they can make serious turns, rises, drops, and splits once they are out of sight of your sensors. ....
"As to entrapping them--many of these complexes have multiple exits, many of which are not used except as emergency exits. Some also can stub out exits, and only finish them from the inside when needed. So if you don't kill them, you might not entomb them as long as you thing."
Your "assumption" is that the "value" is "concussion"! It's just the opposite. The "thermobaric" function that is most devastating is the vacuum created when the air in the tunnels and caves are sucked out by the ignition of the fuel cloud at a level that destroys internal organs even if it does not obliterate their torsos within the fuel cloud when it ignites. As a munitions expert from the 60's you should know that already. You know, all that "intel" on "mission space" in comparison to the "lethal radius of the munition" you know so much about?
It is the weapon of choice to effectively destroy tunneling and caves not to mention those "hiding" within them, because those spaces (you call them "mission space") are confined and defined by the walls, floors, and ceilings carved out of the rock and solid debris.
Perhaps that is why the death assessment has increased 3 fold after some "exploration" ... instead of 360 toes it sounds like they may have found closer to a 1,000 of them.
Originally Posted by LexusLover
In this case the pictures and video of the tests is really pretty damn impressive.
Originally Posted by Old-T
Quote:
Originally Posted by LexusLover View Post
Were any posting "post after post"?
Or are you just getting hysterical again?
Hysteria has nothing to do with it. You can go read numerous threads with numerous posts where some of the "illustrious" posters on here demonstrate the point. If you care how many, or care to debate exactly which posts include such a sentiment, go right ahead.
Your description of "the bomb" omits some elements of its value.
ot:
"Caves and tunnels can be very large proportional to the lethal radius of the munition, even very big (conventional) munitions. And things like turns, doors, etc., can quickly reduce the effect even more.
".... You can't watch tunneling underground easily, and with current equipment they can make serious turns, rises, drops, and splits once they are out of sight of your sensors. ....
"As to entrapping them--many of these complexes have multiple exits, many of which are not used except as emergency exits. Some also can stub out exits, and only finish them from the inside when needed. So if you don't kill them, you might not entomb them as long as you thing."
Your "assumption" is that the "value" is "concussion"!
Not at all, that is why I didn't say "concussive radius" or some such term. Lethality depends upon a lot of things and has a lot of mechanisms.
It's just the opposite. The "thermobaric" function that is most devastating is the vacuum created when the air in the tunnels and caves are sucked out by the ignition of the fuel cloud at a level that destroys internal organs even if it does not obliterate their torsos within the fuel cloud when it ignites. As a munitions expert from the 60's you should know that already.
OT:
Typical of you. A few gratuitous insults. I never claimed to be a "60's munitions expert", nor a munitions expert of any type. Just someone who know more about the current weapons in the discussion than some other people on here.
You know, all that "intel" on "mission space" in comparison to the "lethal radius of the munition" you know so much about?
OT:
Why yes, that I do know quite a bit about. Certainly more than you seem to.
It is the weapon of choice to effectively destroy tunneling and caves not to mention those "hiding" within them, because those spaces (you call them "mission space") are confined and defined by the walls, floors, and ceilings carved out of the rock and solid debris.
OT:
This is where you outrun your headlights. First, MOAB is appropriate for some C/T depending upon what is in there, and what we know about it. And what the intent of the strike is, If it is humans, and they are careless/uninformed, it can be very effective. But it can be quite less effective against other C/T targets. The "weapon of choice" can still leave you with a far from good choice.
Perhaps that is why the death assessment has increased 3 fold after some "exploration" ... instead of 360 toes it sounds like they may have found closer to a 1,000 of them.[/QUOTE]
That one actually caused me to laugh out loud at your complete cluelessness. About me, and about the topic. But carry on, you are happy in you fantasies.
Originally Posted by Old-T
Sometimes reviewing reality is beneficial ....
... especially with bullshitters like OT.
Like I posted .... your "evaluation" of the MOAB is based on noninformation aka bullshit. You don't even accurately describe the chemistry and physics of the weapon system and it's function.
Huh?
"....multi-billion dollar munitions development program"!
The cost per unit is about $200,000.
How much is a U.S. special op's life worth to "clear" the network of tunnels and caves?
Originally Posted by IIFFOFRDB
