Obama??

All you have to do to figure out how government handouts do not work is to look at all the Indian Tribes. Anyone that has Indian blood can get college paid for except for the Lumbees. They are the poorest group of people and have all kinds of problems. A vast majority do not go on to get an education. A lot of help that white guilt did for the Indians.

The government is just not efficient at helping anyone and our tax dollars just do not go very far when it is in the governments hands. What needs to happen is let the American people keep their money and go back to helping out our neighbors and communities. I am all for having more community outreach to help those that want to help themselves. I refuse to help someone that will not give an effort to make a change for the better.

In these arguments logic is typical taken out of the equation. The liberals and even conservatives let emotions influence their argument. Take your emotions out of it and look at the issues with logic. One thing that should be screaming at both liberals and conservatives is that the government is not good at doing much of anything except for waste money.

There you go with the racism Shit again. Just ask any cop, teachers, welfare office worker, restaurant worker or whoever about their jobs. You might learn something.

You've traveled abroad? Cool, check out planet earth sometime. It's probably different from what you're used to. I bet if you were around in Galileo's time, you would've called him "uneducated" and "ignorant"
For suggesting the earth revolved around the sun. The truth really upsets delusional
people.

So you deny slavery in America (Roots) or the Holocaust (Schindler'sList?) Please elucidate us on the truth man... I'm all ears.

BTW -- I've worked in most every environment you've described. And I've traveled abroad AND worked there. I would never have called Gallileo uneducated or ignorant.

I'm not sure you're uneducated or ignorant. I think you know EXACTLY what you're doing. But I do believe your POSTS are mean spirited and hate mongering and will ask you once again to save the racism and xenophobia for a different audience.

It isn't against the law to be an asshole, bubba. Just damned unpleasant! And completely unnecessary. Surely I'm not the only person here who thinks so. And woe on ECCIE if I am!

So what you're saying is that President Obama should just give a bunch of money to the IRS because he has a bunch of money?
Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

I think his point is valid. Obama is the President. His public position is that "the rich should just give a bunch of money to the IRS because they have a bunch of money". That's pretty much the extent of his argument. He purportedly thinks that's the "right" thing to do. While he cannot force them to do so, as he quite openly would like to. Until he changes the law, there's nothing stopping HIM from doing it right now. So why doesn't he do the right thing?

Me...I think it's a ridiculous idea and a sham. While it stokes popular sentiment it completely fails to properly go after relatively small number of feaux capitalist corporate thieves who made vast wealth milking the system and providing little value, instead cozying up to the government (both parties). Instead it penalizes the much much larger majority of high earners and entrepreneurs who are really doing most of the really really useful, innovative and valuable things in this country, taking the risks and carrying quite a lot of dead weight on their backs already. Worse, the problem is spending not revenue. You could tax all income over $250K at 75% and (assuming such people would bother to work as much which they wouldn't) it wouldn't make a noticeable dent in the deficit...just look at the numbers. So yeah, I sure as hell won't be doing it.

I personally would LOVE to see a flat tax with a straight $10-15K per income earner deduction and absolutely nothing else. Tax it all...income, interest and realized capital gains...at 20% or so.

By the way Ysup and others of similar opinion, I would like to point out that the argument is not whether people who have EARNED (and visible exceptions notwithstanding, most well off people did earn it) more money should help those in need with some food assistance, educational assistance or whatever. Most better off people donate generously to helping people who need a leg up and in a world with less taxes would likely do moreso in my opinion...maybe even far more intelligently than the government. Or maybe they'd just blow more money on stupid fun shit, which in a capitalist system is called "creating jobs" (a term absurdly coopted by the government which obviously does no such thing) which is way better for the recipient's soul than charity.

The question is whether the government should forcibly take it from them and give it to such individuals. Maybe even more importantly; the question is whether individuals who are not willing or able to be useful enough to other people in any meaningful way so as to earn enough money to buy what they consider to be "the minimum" should be allowed to trade their votes in return for promises from politicians to take other's money and use it to buy stuff for them.

Most better off people donate generously to helping people who need a leg up and in a world with less taxes would likely do moreso in my opinion...maybe even far more intelligently than the government. Originally Posted by irishlad

MOST? That's pretty bold. There's evidence of that every day. You're talking extreme microcosms of the whole. Don't forget that Ken Lay was one of Houston's biggest philanthropists while he was ripping the country off right and left.

Deporting the illegals and taking the subhumans off of welfare would solve a majority of America's problems. Originally Posted by BonerJams03

It might, but you'd have less creampie options.

MOST? That's pretty bold. There's evidence of that every day. You're talking extreme microcosms of the whole. Don't forget that Ken Lay was one of Houston's biggest philanthropists while he was ripping the country off right and left. Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

I cannot tell if you are disagreeing that most well off people make charitable donations and help people, or if you are agreeing but arguing that they are bad people anyway.

The former I see firsthand enough to be comfortable that it is the rule not the exception. The latter is irrelevant to this discussion but I would note that Bernie is in jail.

So you are cool with the idea of government forcibly taking money from people that earn it and giving it to people that haven't earned it but who vote?

I don't think MOST well off people are bad. I just think it's a bold statement to claim that MOST make philanthropic donations. Further I do not think that philanthropy and voluntarism have ever supported the social services and infrastructure of a nation. I will also say that some of the biggest philanthropists are cheaters whose contribution through buying a steer at the Livestock Show ain't shit compared to what they, and their companies should be paying in tax.

I believe that the government should have mechanisms in place to provide for all of its people. If that means "forcibly taking money from those that earn it and giving it to people that haven't earned it but who vote," then yes I am.

You make taxation sound like the worst thing in the world. My friend, it's the WAY of the world, and has been from the beginning of civilization.

OF course, I could state the obvious -- put yourself on the other end of the spectrum. Try and send your kids to public schools that don't exist. Try and get food, clothing and shelter within your minimum wage means. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps ... but don't have any boots. Try getting some pussy for free...

There is a middle area here, amigo. That's called progressive taxation and responsible social programming. Maybe if we worried less about Planned Parenthood and NPR and more about the cost of financing war in the Middle East, we'd find some money for public education and health care.

Other countries do it and seem to be leaving the US in the dust in terms of education, health care, transportation, etc., in spite of prices that we in America would find beyond oppressive. And they've been doing it a long time, in spite of having many of their cities flattened within the last 75 years or so by wars.

Yet some of us start whining whenever it comes to helping the poor out of poverty.

Oh yeah, while you're snatching all that hard earned (tax-free) money from the wealthy, remember to save some for the middle class... they're dropping like flies under the current system.

I think Bernie Madoff is a Saint compared to the crooks in Washington D.C.

Rider, I think you are mistaking my interest in self-preservation and a decent standard of living for "hate". And since when did "felon" and "prison inmate" become racial slurs? To what group of people is this offensive?

You make taxation sound like the worst thing in the world. My friend, it's the WAY of the world, and has been from the beginning of civilization.

...

There is a middle area here, amigo. That's called progressive taxation and responsible social programming. Maybe if we worried less about Planned Parenthood and NPR and more about the cost of financing war in the Middle East, we'd find some money for public education and health care.

Other countries do it and seem to be leaving the US in the dust in terms of education, health care, transportation, etc., in spite of prices that we in America would find beyond oppressive. And they've been doing it a long time, in spite of having many of their cities flattened within the last 75 years or so by wars.

Yet some of us start whining whenever it comes to helping the poor out of poverty.

Oh yeah, while you're snatching all that hard earned (tax-free) money from the wealthy, remember to save some for the middle class... they're dropping like flies under the current system. Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

Now now...don't strawman me. The question is not "should there be taxes", I've already advocated for them in the form of a flat tax with a progressive element in the from of a standard deduction.The context of my point was the question of whether we should raise taxes on people making over $250K a year to offset government spending.

The top 5% income earners are already putting up 30% of all taxes collected when you include payroll and state taxes (it is a lot higher if you only look at income taxes). The top 1% pay 15% all by themselves. If the poor aren't being helped by this, then money is being squandered and "more" would just be more squandered. Plus even when the government tries to "help the poor" that mainly screw it up and create generations of dependent-minded individuals, doing more harm to those they would help than if they did nothing.

Interesting aside - income and real taxes paid align pretty closely, attempted progressiveness aside...so a flat tax wouldn't change much except for making life a lot easier for you and me, making life a lot harder for very high net worth sophisticated tax avoiders, and the impact on accountants and IRS employees.

The comparisons to Europe are pretty questionable. Europeans spend a lot less than we do on health care per person than we do so obviously throwing money at our healthcare system is not the solution - this whole "right to the best healthcare, every day of life is priceless" mentality we have makes pragmatic healthcare solutions very difficult for us to achieve. They also spend a LOT LOT less per capita on their militaries. In fact our military spending is by far the biggest federal government expense and equal to the entire worlds combined spending...so when you think about that insanity it is a miracle of staggering proportions that we have any money for social programs at all. Cut US military spending to the world average and we'd be running huge surplusses.

TLR - The government sucks at helping the poor, leave it to people to help their neighbors they certainly won't do worse. Also, any time the US government talks about raising taxes to help the poor, it really just turns out to be more money for the military :-) So I'm against it.

You're a wise man, irishman. You're able to see through the bullshit and zero in on the truth.


The military complex in this country has long dictated the condition of life for most Americans. And having been part of both parts of that equation, I'll have to tell you that we need to get the latter under control.

Texas state taxes are a fucking joke. If we wanted to get into the 21st century and achieve fecal unity, State of Texas would completely do away with propery taxes and institute a statewide income tax.

That way, old folks like, er, ME, wouldn't have to paid to educated the kids of young folks like, er, you, but could contribute in an equitable manner toward to construction of a workable infrastructure -- something that might actually help Texas into the 21st Century, rather than making us the laughing stock of Mississippi and, er, Idamfkingho.

They have public transportation with integrity in California for God's sake. Dallas (may they burn in hell) actually has a functional mass transit system -- I know, I helped convince voters to approve it! But here in the ATX, we're hamstrung by a fucking river! Oh Noo, Bluto, We're not going with you....

WHAT THE HELL IS UP WITH THAT?

BTW -- the government is expert at making poor people...they should be concerned with making un-poor people. Who mops your floors, broseph?

Suspiciously absent from this discussion are the members of the so-called "Attack Pack." Come on guys, certainly there's something antagonistic you can say about taxes, membership in the world community, something other than degrading women in public...etc. SORRY GUYS. But I think we've all found an uncommon ground. THANK JESUS!

lot of interesting opinions on here.

a lot of you guys are much older and more educated in these things. I'll admit, i try to keep up with this shit but it does fly over my head a lot.

in my simplistic and naive view, I'm basically pro-middle class. It's where I come from and probably the most I'll amount too,which is cool. I just don't have hte type A personality to want to be the top dog and earn the most, have my own Gulfstream jet etc...

so I personally don't mind the top dogs getting taxed more, but i still think the successful should enjoy the fruits of their labor. I also think the lower class should receive some help, but you gotta draw the line somewhere. If I was real poor the last thing I'd want to do is bring a kid into this world. Shit, i've got some money in savings and I still fear the thought of it. So I'm not a fan of those who continue to make their situation worse and expect others to pick up the tab.

bigger things that concern me is the Federal Reserve and their byzantine methods. Once again maybe i just can't comprehend it but their shit has me perplexed.

another issue is the growing bureaucracy, which includes the military industrial complex. Just way too many people making decent pay on bullshit jobs with the government.

We have a WH Press conference in a few minutes, to reveal/discuss the birth certificate issue. Ironically, just as Trump is arriving in New Hampshire. Looks like Trump may be considered a joke as a candidate but the issue(s) he is raising are certainly forcing the Dems to react and answer questions...

which is good, win, lose or draw...

Obama has punished government whistle-blowers, humiliated Federal employees, refused to investigate fraud on Wall Street and in the banking system, blocked litigation seeking to recover billions in fraud from contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan. He has failed to bring terrorists back to the U.S. for proper trial and punishment. He has covered up every act of malfeasance involved in the Iraq and Afghan debacles. He's mandated that every citizen be forced to buy insurance from a private insurance company and then declared that we are now all insured. He has no plan for paying any of the collossal debt he has incurred. He hires lobbiests into government posts.

When campaigning he did of course promise to be THE KIND of person who would do the opposite on each and every issue.

In short he has no integrity whatsoever.

The only President who was this much of a complete phony was Abraham Lincoln, someone with whom he's sometimes compared.

IMHO Obama is actually sufferring from anti-social personality disorder, and as such should be removed from office for medical reasons. No joke.

The way is clear for the Republicans. Do they have anyone who's not a joke which they can put forward this time? The former Governor of New Mexico? The current Governor or New Jersey? The Mayor of New York? Even Ron Paul?

Come on Republicans PLEEESE come up with someone other than Huckabee or Romney or Trump.