I am a Indy but like obama

Fritz: To quote someone who used to blog here "BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH".

I think I hear something. Oh yes. It's contentious, pretentious crap. Must be Fritz. Helloooo old boy! Say, write any more reviews lately? Those are quite good. You must write a jolly good letter to Penthouse. Why don't you stick to that instead of boring us all with your sad little views on politics? I mean really old chap, those are quite horrid...

Your remarks sir, continue to require no more than that kind of response.

Both of your arguments bore me. Originally Posted by Bartman1963

The truth is often boring.

The problem with the nuke arms reduction treaty signed last week is the Russian position that it is invalidated if we insist on deploying missile shield technology to western and eastern Europe.

We will reduce arms...and if we want the Russians to, we won't deploy missile shields to Europe. Remember how the Russians invaded Georgia? Aware of the Russian/Polish tensions at the moment? What the president has just done is unravel a 65 y/o policy of posturing against Russian expansion in Europe. This is why it is unpopular...and some Democrats in the Senate may not vote to ratify. As a side note, Ronald Reagan was mocked for envisioning missile shield technology, and it was derisively called Star Wars. Interesting that little Ronnie's fancifully impossible idea is now a key part of arms negotiations.

The genie is out of the bottle with Nukes. They will always be around. Yet, our president has professed that he wants a world without nukes...which is very problematic. What is the closest thing we can have to a world without nukes? A world where nukes might not always be effective (due to a missile shield). Hell, I'd be all for giving the technology to the Russians, too....but we are going in a completely different direction, which is almost identical to what we were doing 30 years ago...and yet there are still nuclear weapons in this world.

Cheaper started this thread by saying he liked Obama. I asked what specifically he liked, and I have heard alot of bad things about Bush. I made a list, which hasn't much been addressed...so I'll break it up into small parts, with my input:

a. Supreme Court appointment - I don't like it, but elections have consequences, and he's gonna get who he likes on the court

b. Nuke Arms Treaty with Ruskies - abandons missile shield over Europe, and puts a Russian cloud over Poland and Georgia...I don't like it.

c. TARP - Had to be done to keep credit markets from spiraling out of control

d. Cash for Clunkers - Redistribution of money to help one particular sector of the economy...I was not a fan.

e. GM bailout - I say let them go bankrupt...then a trustee can invalidate some of the insane contracts and relieve them of huge legacy cost...sounds mean, but this is how it happens when every other company goes bankrupt. Just throwing money at GM (and leaving the potential for government meddling in future models) doesn't help the situation.

I thought I'd part with a note about what I think Obama has done right: he has very quietly continued and perhaps escalated UAV operations in Pakistan. He has broken his campaign promise (and executive order) and left Gitmo open. He has broken his campaign promise and left troops in Iraq.

e happen & I told you D crew

Are you kidding that source quoted goes along side of what I stated- your own report you posted stated that each American solider cost roughy $300,000 a year- multiply that by 100,000 troops and divide that by 365- you get rough 821million PER DAY- please do your math and tell me the figures you get? It's not even disputable how much the war cost and the 821 million a day doesn't even account for medical expenses and the report mention billions of watse and other expenses that didn't g into the figure? So by your own report it states the wat is costing 821 million a day- not too far off from 1 billion dollars a day now is it?
Now you tell me who is being misleading???

LaCrew I agree with most of your point except GM bailout- had he led GM go bankrupt do you know how many other industries would have been affected??? Let's get real- would you be brave enough to stand in front of a GM plant in Detroit and tell all the workers the hell with you- your asses need to go bankrupt? Had GM failed the Unemployment rate would have skyrocketed and like I said various other industries that supplies materials and other parts to GM would have had to close doors or have massive lay offs- I don't understand your logic, but hey that's how the republicans think these days.

Did you go to the link...look at 2009 monthly spending, divide by 30...get a much lower number. I'll assist: 7.3 billion/30 days = $243 million a day...or a 400% difference.

Its hard for people in Detroit to understand this sometimes, but there are other companies making cars in this country. Hyundai has a plant in Alabama. Toyota builds in Texas. BMW is in South Carolina. Sure, they're just assembly plants, but so are the so called 'American Car Companies'. The only difference - they aren't swimming in debt from legacy costs.

I really don't understand the logic of propping up one company to prevent unemployment...which completely ignores the underlying problem that their product is not in high demand. You can't just throw money at GM and expect it to get better, without some sort of restructuring. If you recall, Ford has been close to bankrupt, and is now stronger than ever, after renegotiating its retirement benefits.

Moving on:

f. Took kid gloves off with Israel - Successful ally and democracy in an unstable region. I have no idea why Obama is trying to humiliate them. I don't agree.

g. Healthcare bill - Other nations have tried this with failure (UK, Canada, Portugal). Some of our states have tried and failed (Hawaii, Tennessee, Mass is about to fail). I have no reason to believe this will be anything other than a failure. None of the major votes on this legislation happened on a normal business day, or even during the daylight hours. Most of the people who voted for it are not proud of it.

h. Federalizing student loans - I have no strong opinion...except the fact that it was wrecklessly tossed in with the healthcare bill, without even going to committee, is very disturbing.

i. Cig tax - I don't like sin taxes (don't smoke), and I don't like

j. Planned expiration of Bush Tax cuts - look up the Laffer curve. Where do you think we are on it? Is it a good time to take money out of the economy? It really isn't.

k. Cap and Trade - This one has been a sleeper. It already passed the house. Obama claims it will cost less than a postage stamp a day. Every independent institute that looks at it estimates it will cost an average household $1,500 a year in house energy alone, not counting gasoline. Want to run moderate income communities into the ground? Make it impossible for people to sell a house...and you get a sea of rentals. Embedded in the bill is language requiring a homeowner to upgrade appliances before selling a house...and submit to a DOE energy audit. Here in Topeka, vast areas would instantly become not viable to upgrade...and will be rentals forever. Not a good idea.

Did you go to the link...look at 2009 monthly spending, divide by 30...get a much lower number. I'll assist: 7.3 billion/30 days = $243 million a day...or a 400% difference.

Its hard for people in Detroit to understand this sometimes, but there are other companies making cars in this country. Hyundai has a plant in Alabama. Toyota builds in Texas. BMW is in South Carolina. Sure, they're just assembly plants, but so are the so called 'American Car Companies'. The only difference - they aren't swimming in debt from legacy costs.

I really don't understand the logic of propping up one company to prevent unemployment...which completely ignores the underlying problem that their product is not in high demand. You can't just throw money at GM and expect it to get better, without some sort of restructuring. If you recall, Ford has been close to bankrupt, and is now stronger than ever, after renegotiating its retirement benefits. Originally Posted by lacrew_2000

You are so deceptive that it's not even funny- the report starts off stating what was budgeted to have been spent in Iraq- then it clearly details the waste that was spent and then starts off saying to deploy an American soldier for the year cost 300,000 per soldier- then you can simply do the math. I have posted 3 Independent sites and even your site which mentions that deployong an American soldier costs 300,000 and multiply that by 100,000 and divide by 365 you get 821 million a year. You can go on Republican websites and they will confirm it cost nearly 1 billion dollars a day this is not even disputable- both Obama and McCain mention the high cost of spending in Iraq and trust me it's closer to 1 billion than 231 million. Why do you think we borrowed tons of money from China? The spending in Iraq has bankrupt us and there's no Republican or Democrat that will dispute those figures- you are being so misleading or you simply don't want to admit the truth. Also, the 821 million doesn't include the money it cost that we are spending in Afganistan - if you add up those 2 wars its well noth of 1 billion dollars a day to fight a man that lives in a cave and the taliban and to get rid of a man who was no threat to the World and had no WMD's- yeah I guess that billion dolars a day was a great American investment!!!

Moving on:

f. Took kid gloves off with Israel - Successful ally and democracy in an unstable region. I have no idea why Obama is trying to humiliate them. I don't agree.

g. Healthcare bill - Other nations have tried this with failure (UK, Canada, Portugal). Some of our states have tried and failed (Hawaii, Tennessee, Mass is about to fail). I have no reason to believe this will be anything other than a failure. None of the major votes on this legislation happened on a normal business day, or even during the daylight hours. Most of the people who voted for it are not proud of it.

h. Federalizing student loans - I have no strong opinion...except the fact that it was wrecklessly tossed in with the healthcare bill, without even going to committee, is very disturbing.

i. Cig tax - I don't like sin taxes (don't smoke), and I don't like

j. Planned expiration of Bush Tax cuts - look up the Laffer curve. Where do you think we are on it? Is it a good time to take money out of the economy? It really isn't.

k. Cap and Trade - This one has been a sleeper. It already passed the house. Obama claims it will cost less than a postage stamp a day. Every independent institute that looks at it estimates it will cost an average household $1,500 a year in house energy alone, not counting gasoline. Want to run moderate income communities into the ground? Make it impossible for people to sell a house...and you get a sea of rentals. Embedded in the bill is language requiring a homeowner to upgrade appliances before selling a house...and submit to a DOE energy audit. Here in Topeka, vast areas would instantly become not viable to upgrade...and will be rentals forever. Not a good idea. Originally Posted by lacrew_2000

We need to stand up to Isreal- sure Isreal is an ally, but if Isreal wants peace with the Palestenians that have to be the bigger man and meet them halfway- Isresal under Bush did what they wanted- it's time someone stood stern against Isreal- as long as Obama is being stern and fair to both sides I have no problem.
Healthcare- I don't love the bill, but it's better than the status quo- you say it failed in many countries- a lot fo countries have great health care- albiet they pay higher taxes but still it's run a lot better than ours- we are currently 19th in the Indiustralized world in health care and we are the richest nation in the world- there's something wrong with that picture.
Federalizng student loans- good move Obama eliminates the middle man helps students

Cig Tax- I support sin tax- nuff said- sucks for you smokers but hey...
Roll back of Bush taxes- long overdue- yeah I really think that Warren Buffet and Bill Gates deserves a tax break over the avg middle class worker- where is the tax break for the middle class. if you make a pie and see who is paying what and who is getting taxed- it's clearly the middle class that is keeping the economy running- at one point during the Reagan era - trickld down economics was working- the wealthy were creating jobs- now they are sitting on their money- and than the rich got richer- the poor got poorer and the middle class got fucked- roll back those taxes- and also impose a luxury tax.
Cap and Trade- I am still neutral on this issue- on paper it looks like a solid idea but I am seeing various reports where it could backfire

I'll repeat it again, we do not spend a billion a day in Iraq. Its false. I pointed it out. I can't help it if the number was wrong. Its important correct facts to be presented. Can we agree yet that we don't spend a billion a day in Iraq?

Israel has done nothing but make concessions since Clinton was president...and the Palestinians still won't even make a formal declaration that Israel has the right to exist. Think about that.

Healthcare - 19th in the world? I think the WHO put that out, with some strange criteria, one of which being whether or nor universal healthcare was available (circular logic). Bottom line, we have more people travelling to this country for healthcare than the reverse...because we have a good system here. What about the fact it is bankrupt in Hawaii and Tennessee, and about to be bankrupt in Massachussets...or the Canadian system is a shambles, UK healthcare is a running joke, and it has run Portugal into the ground? The mere fact that it 'feels good' won't pay the bills.

Sin taxes = control taxes. There's been alot of talk about a 'pole tax' recently...would put small strip clubs out of business. Anyone for that?

Didn't look at the Laffer curve? Don't fall into the trap into believing economics is a zero sum game. There is an optimal tax rate: 100% would be ridiculous, nobody would work. 0 % would be ridiculous, nothing could be funded. Somewhere in the middle is the sweet spot (like timing an engine). Are we at that sweet spot? Are taxes currently too low? Will raising taxes grow the economy. Believe me, growing the economy is our only chance to get out of this mess...and class baiting is just counterproductive.

"Are you kidding that source quoted goes along side of what I stated- your own report you posted stated that each American solider cost roughy $300,000 a year- multiply that by 100,000 troops and divide that by 365- you get rough 821million PER DAY- please do your math and tell me the figures you get?"

OK. I did the math problem: 300,000*100,000/365 = 82 million per day (note no cap lock)

82 million does not equal a billion. Sorry.

You neglected operational costs however. The real cost is near 230 million a day.

Can we now agree that it is a false statement to say that we spend a billion dollars a day in Iraq?

crew lets just say this if it cost even 200 million a day & you tell me we can't afford heath care then what the fuck if you tell me we will be spending 200 million a day but we can't afford to make our own people in our country heath then what the hell I f you tell me that we can't afford to make sure every kid has good schooling but we can pay to bomb some people the what the hell for 200 million a day. this is sad just sad. And
f. Took kid gloves off with Israel - Successful ally and democracy in an unstable region what have they done for us lately what have the done every name it spell it out write it down type it put links say what we pay them every year and not even get a blowjob. what have they done for us how many soldiers do they lose in our name.

My problem with healthcare isn't necessarily the cost. The whole system takes the linkage between patient and doctor away...I have experienced this in the army. Customer service goes out the window, and you are seen as begging for healthcare (rather than getting something you have paid for and/or is part of your compensation package). Add cost pressures to this, and you get...Canada.

I need to watch it. My blood gets hot talking about these subjects. I don't need points.

Ender, you are obviously a decent writer and intelligent.

Which makes it sad how wrong headed your politics are. I wish you the best, but to debate you properly I would need to spend far more time on this post than I wish to. I will never give in to your positions, but you argue well. Good for you. Wish I had more time so I could properly engage.

Ciao to this thread.