Company Check on Covid Vax

Yeah, Israeli studies says that natural immunity is actually very effective. And Israel actually has the highest vaccination rate. Originally Posted by Aoi

No one is saying that a covid infection does not have the possibility of immunity. In fact, the immunity conferred from an infection could be potentially greater than that provided by the vaccine itself. Two things, however: one, the study I provided earlier showed that slightly more than 1/3 of survivors showed NO immunity, and two, the presence of the spike protein from the mRNA vaccine reduces the severity of the infection in the first place, making one less likely to be hospitalized from the infection. Additionally, this does not interfere with a naturally acquired covid immunity.

From the article you linked: "Yes, an Israeli study did find natural immunity is effective in fighting COVID-19, but health experts still recommend vaccination
An Israeli study found the best protection against COVID-19 is getting vaccinated and having natural immunity. But vaccines are still effective and less dangerous."

You linked a pro-vaccine article.

Yeah, by working conditions as to have clean floors, railings to protect you from falling into machines and shit. Not forcibly take a vaccine. Originally Posted by Aoi

A safe working environment includes reasonable protection from exposure to workplace contaminants, such as infectious diseases. If you have ever worked in an industry that had any kind of heavy machinery, you will recognize the OSHA standards pertaining to biohazards/bodily fluids (aka blood) and potential exposure to them.

Are you saying that people's religion can't be a reason why people someone doesn't want to get vaccines? People can use religion for anything. Are you so intellectually full of shit to say that the majority of religions are on board with forcing someone to do something to their own body against their will? Originally Posted by Aoi

Yes, the majority of religions are on board with advocating their constituents to do something to protect themselves and their neighbors.

I'm confused by this point. You seem to be simultaneously arguing for religious freedom, while at the same time implying people will use religion to glibly achieve ulterior motives. Which is it?

No, religions can be against the administration of medicine in general. That includes vaccinations. Just because they don't specifically mention vaccinations, doesn't mean they don't mean a broader body of science. Originally Posted by Aoi

This has to be one of the weakest arguments I've ever encountered in this kind of debate. The religions this article references (the Amish, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists) make up a tiny fraction of the population, and are not indicative of the belief systems of the vast VAST majority of this nation's faithful.

Aoi, in case you were mistaken, we are not talking about religious generalities, and neither are employers. We are looking for "sincerely-held religious beliefs", and I am willing to bet that the vast majority of people opposing the vaccine mandate are not a member of any of these four sects.

I love how you're so bent up on specifically vaccine that you're missing the broader picture of religions being against medicines in general, none of which, btw, is the government's fucking business. Are you aware that vaccines are belong to a broader body of medicine which certain religious people have every right to cite as a reason to take them, vaccines and all? Originally Posted by Aoi

I think there's a typo in this and I don't understand what you're saying. All I can say is that the leadership of most religions worldwide has come out in favor of the vaccines.

And? The pope doesn't speak for everyone, ever. So who gives a shit? The pope also is for open borders despite ruling over a body that is completely walled off. Fuck what that pedo says. Originally Posted by Aoi

I'm not a Catholic, I don't care. But the Catholics are a vocal vaccine holdout population, I was trying to get ahead of any potential argument. Thank you for responding to my caution with sheer vulgarity. It makes me look better by comparison.

No, they wouldn't. It's simply not the government's business to know anything about someone's belief or what they put in their bodies against their will. Originally Posted by Aoi

If it comes into conflict against a public health mandate, it absolutely is. Your freedom stops where it harms someone else. George Washington insists: https://founders.archives.gov/docume...83-fn-0004-ptr

No, the survival rate, once you factor in age, general health, fitness and pre-existing conditions, is north of 99 percent. Originally Posted by Aoi

This just is not true and unless you can provide some kind of evidence for the claim (like I have for mine) it must be dismissed.

Just what exactly is it about freedom that makes you so damn mad that you would cuck to the government so much? Obviously, it isn't health otherwise you'd have answered my questions from before.

I just think you're a part of the vaccine cult. Originally Posted by Aoi

Not mad, not a govt simp.

And you're right: I'm a diehard member of the vaccine cult. The same cult the boosted the global population from 2 million to 7 million in a century. If you're confused, google it. I've done more than enough googling to disprove you and your compatriots' claims.

Something else: I can't help but notice that people dedicated to this anti-vaccine stance have an inherent ideological inconsistency. They love to point to CDC numbers and out-of-context articles talking about how the vaccine is guilty of all their worst nightmares. However, they never acknowledge the sheer body count of the unvaccinated dead versus those who have vaccinated.

I think this is the real test: show documented evidence that vaccine skepticism is an objectively more reasonable stance than vaccination vis-a-vis surviving covid, and you might have the beginning of an argument.

No one is saying that a covid infection does not have the possibility of immunity. In fact, the immunity conferred from an infection could be potentially greater than that provided by the vaccine itself. Two things, however: one, the study I provided earlier showed that slightly more than 1/3 of survivors showed NO immunity. Originally Posted by howdy_booty

Meaning slightly less than 2/3rds of previously infected people have shown immunity. So should they still be forced to take the vaccine? It's not a matter of recommendations. It's always been an issue of being FORCED to take it. You keep conflating "might be a good idea" to my position of being against "take it or else the long dick of the law will fuck you."


Also, you can get infected and get struck with symptoms post vaccination. So, what exactly are you arguing about again? That there is no absolutely guaranteed way of being invincible to this? Yeah, no shit.

and two, the presence of the spike protein from the mRNA vaccine reduces the severity of the infection in the first place, making one less likely to be hospitalized from the infection. Additionally, this does not interfere with a naturally acquired covid immunity.

The vaccine and previous infection both amount to the same thing : reduction of severe symptoms. This is why being "asymptomatic" is actually a very real thing with the rona.

From the article you linked: "Yes, an Israeli study did find natural immunity is effective in fighting COVID-19, but health experts still recommend vaccination
An Israeli study found the best protection against COVID-19 is getting vaccinated and having natural immunity. But vaccines are still effective and less dangerous."



You linked a pro-vaccine article.

No, I linked an article that says natural immunity is a very real thing, one which the mandate does not take into consideration or something the likes of fuckheads such as Fauci seems to want to address.

A safe working environment includes reasonable protection from exposure to workplace contaminants, such as infectious diseases. If you have ever worked in an industry that had any kind of heavy machinery, you will recognize the OSHA standards pertaining to biohazards/bodily fluids (aka blood) and potential exposure to them.

Show me where it says people must be forced to take vaccinations. There is a bigass difference between being told not to cough in someone's face or not to infect someone with blood compared to taking a vaccine that the person does not want to.

Yes, the majority of religions are on board with advocating their constituents to do something to protect themselves and their neighbors.

And? There are also religions who are against certain types of remedies or those who interpret their religious beliefs to not take medications up to and including vaccinations. What, do you want someone to go through a checklist of every religion to see if they should be forced to take the vaccine or not?

I'm confused by this point. You seem to be simultaneously arguing for religious freedom, while at the same time implying people will use religion to glibly achieve ulterior motives. Which is it?

No, I'm saying people can use religion as a reason not to be forced to take a vaccine. You're the one trying to pick and choose which religion says this about that, but completely ignore what I've been saying for multiple posts now.

You're saying "Well, certain religions are pro-vaccine" That does not mean they are pro-vaccine to the point where they want their constituents to be forced to take it. You are strawmanning my argument because you know that people can have any number of reason not to be forced to take it.

This has to be one of the weakest arguments I've ever encountered in this kind of debate. The religions this article references (the Amish, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists) make up a tiny fraction of the population, and are not indicative of the belief systems of the vast VAST majority of this nation's faithful.

Are you saying only the card carrying members of the Amish, the Christian scientists and so on can use their religion as an example? Seriously, you pick out a handful of belief systems (one which I specifically cited as branches of Abrahamic faiths) which are known to be anti-science. So what? Seriously, who cares? Are you saying the government or businesses should hire some theologians to nitpick at someone's beliefs against the virus before FORCIBLY jabbing them? There are people who don't believe in any of those sects and will say "I have faith and do not want to get vaccinated" That is their belief. And they should be allowed a CHOICE.

Aoi, in case you were mistaken, we are not talking about religious generalities, and neither are employers. We are looking for "sincerely-held religious beliefs", and I am willing to bet that the vast majority of people opposing the vaccine mandate are not a member of any of these four sects.

No, you're arguing for it. I said simply that religious people can use their faith/religion/beliefs. It doesn't matter if they belong to a faith that is known to be anti-science or their PERSONAL BELIEFS on how they interpret their faith. It doesn't matter what someone authoritative says.

I think there's a typo in this and I don't understand what you're saying. All I can say is that the leadership of most religions worldwide has come out in favor of the vaccines.

So what? If my pastor says "I'm pro vaccine" does that mean he's pro vaccine MANDATE? Seriously, dude. How much of a dunce are you that you keep conflating the two? You can be in favor of vaccines but not force someone to take it. You can also be in a faith that doesn't mention anything about taking medications at all, but still say "I have faith and choose not to take the vaccines." Two things can be true at once, but, again, you're strawmanning it because you are so bad at this.

I'm not a Catholic, I don't care. But the Catholics are a vocal vaccine holdout population, I was trying to get ahead of any potential argument. Thank you for responding to my caution with sheer vulgarity. It makes me look better by comparison.

Again, who gives a shit? I know people who aren't Catholic but don't want to take it because they belief in their faith. I know people who are pro-science in every way, but are not for the vaccine. Seriously, why are you so obtuse and think there are only two positions, one to be against or one to be for, but take into consideration the nuances of everyone's positions? That doesn't make you look better at all. That makes you look like someone who is in favor of forcing someone to take a jab against their will because of reasons you can't even argue properly for.

If it comes into conflict against a public health mandate, it absolutely is. Your freedom stops where it harms someone else. George Washington insists: https://founders.archives.gov/docume...83-fn-0004-ptr

Did you really just compare the rona to smallpox? Because one killed everyone upon infection. The other has a huge survival rate. I wonder which one is which.

But the vaccine is super safe, right? If everyone else around me is, they're safe, right, right? The vaccine works, RIGHT? RIGHT?!?!

So, remind me again why I'm being forced to take a vaccine when you've taken it and the vaccine is super good and you're gold now? Tell your logic to fuck off.

Once again, if you're all for mandating for health, why have you not spoken in favor of mandates for literally any other type of sickness? I've asked you this so many times and you've bitched out every time.

This just is not true and unless you can provide some kind of evidence for the claim (like I have for mine) it must be dismissed.

Pre-vaccine arrival, it was over 99 percent.

Not mad, not a govt simp.

You're a pro-government cuck. You're okay for the mandating of vaccines against someone's will because you want to be safe, even though you already have the vaccine, making you safe.

Word of advice : Nobody needs or wants your bullshit virtue signaling. So, fuck off with your fake altruism.

And you're right: I'm a diehard member of the vaccine cult. The same cult the boosted the global population from 2 million to 7 million in a century.

And I'm a member of "Leave me alone cult and fuck off" cult, otherwise known as, the Freedom cult. It's the system that drives the world as we know it. And you're an ass hole for trying to force people to take a vaccine.

You want to know the funny thing? Those who are unvaccinated, don't give a shit if the people next to them are unvaccinated. It's only the vaccinated that seem to care. Geee! I bet it's also the double vaccinated + boosted that go around wearing a fucking mask everywhere they go, too.

]]
If you're confused, google it. I've done more than enough googling to disprove you and your compatriots' claims.

No, you've attacked strawmen and conflated arguments. You've done fuck all in actually answering questions.

Something else: I can't help but notice that people dedicated to this anti-vaccine stance have an inherent ideological inconsistency. They love to point to CDC numbers and out-of-context articles talking about how the vaccine is guilty of all their worst nightmares. However, they never acknowledge the sheer body count of the unvaccinated dead versus those who have vaccinated.

I think this is the real test: show documented evidence that vaccine skepticism is an objectively more reasonable stance than vaccination vis-a-vis surviving covid, and you might have the beginning of an argument. Originally Posted by howdy_booty

Nobody is saying they're anti-vax.

This entire discussion has always been about the choice to take it or not.

Shit, you're bad at this. So bad.

^ Right and this covid cult has nothing to do with pushing the agenda for money
https://www.hfma.org/topics/news/2020/07/the-new-round-will-pay--50...
2021-09-21 · More than 1,000 hospitals in high-impact areas will get a share of $10 billion in new federal assistance. The new payments will be $50,000 per COVID-19 admission, less than the $77,000 in an earlier round. Hospitals with large Medicaid populations have until Aug. 3 to apply for a separate pool of funds. Hospitals that recently have submitted information on large COVID-19 caseloads could start to receive a share of $10 billion in new federal …

Coronavirus bill provides hospitals with $100 billion ...2020-12-30Increased Medicare payments for COVID-19 care to stretch ...

I'm going to abandon the point-by-point response format as I really don't have time for it this weekend, but I think we've also reached an impasse. And while I will grant you that OSHA merely recommends the vaccine (point to you), you are absolutely wrong about religious exemptions. You don't just get to say "I'm 'x'-faith and I don't believe in vaccines." You have to demonstrably prove that your belief comes from your faith. Here's a decent article on the subject: https://www.stanfordlawreview.org/on...r-hobby-lobby/

Ultimately, I think our disagreement comes down to your total preference of negative freedom over positive freedom. You would like the freedom from anyone telling you what to do, even if it's merely to go to CVS twice for 15 minutes.

I would like the freedom to not worry about whether there's hospital room if my kid gets a broken arm. I would like the freedom to live in a country where a third of the population are plague factories churning out variants every few months.

A last question though: what, if anything, would change your mind about taking the vaccine? I'll tell you what would do it for me: the emergence of significant side-effects from the shot outweighing any drop in fatality. But there just isn't any evidence of that so far.

I’m waiting for the moment one of you finally realizes the other isn’t going to change his mind and decides this is just a waste of keystrokes.

I’m waiting for the moment one of you finally realizes the other isn’t going to change his mind and decides this is just a waste of keystrokes. Originally Posted by TinMan

Oh it's coming

To be fair, I do enjoy this kind of thing. It forces me to investigate my own beliefs to see if they hold water. I'm curious if I'm alone in that.

I'm going to abandon the point-by-point response format as I really don't have time for it this weekend, but I think we've also reached an impasse. And while I will grant you that OSHA merely recommends the vaccine (point to you), you are absolutely wrong about religious exemptions. You don't just get to say "I'm 'x'-faith and I don't believe in vaccines." You have to demonstrably prove that your belief comes from your faith. Here's a decent article on the subject: https://www.stanfordlawreview.org/on...r-hobby-lobby/
Originally Posted by howdy_booty

There is an an ocean of difference between forcing a private company to pay for someone's contraceptive to someone being forced to shove a needle in their body that they didn't want in the first place.

The reality is, people don't have to prove anything. If it's their belief, then it's their belief so they should be able to have bodily autonomy. If someone said "My faith is enough and I don't want to take the vaccine" That is enough. In fact, they can just say "No" and that's still enough. Why are you such an ass hole that you want everyone to do you want, against their will? You took the vaccine right? You're safe, right? So why the fuck do you care?

Ultimately, I think our disagreement comes down to your total preference of negative freedom over positive freedom. You would like the freedom from anyone telling you what to do, even if it's merely to go to CVS twice for 15 minutes.

Oh, sort of like how coronavirus started off with "15 days to slow the spread." and now it's basically going on indefinitely. When the government says "It's just this tiny thing" you know they're full of shit. Stop with the bullshit gaslighting.

I would like the freedom to not worry about whether there's hospital room if my kid gets a broken arm.

Then shove him into a bubble and have him live in there like a coward like his father.

I would like the freedom to live in a country where a third of the population are plague factories churning out variants every few months.

This is endemic. I've been saying this since March of last year and I've only been right. It's not going to go away and it's going to be a part of our life, just like any other virus. If you believe that there should be sweeping government mandates each time they discover something new, you're an ass hole.

But hey, if you're so afraid, then go live in the mountains or something with your family. Be chickenshits and let the rest of the world go about their business. Why should we all have to cave to what you want because you're afraid of your own shadow?

Oh, and if you're so afraid of people not being vaccinated, why haven't you criticized Biden for allowing people to flood through our borders, untested and unvaccinated?

A last question though: what, if anything, would change your mind about taking the vaccine? I'll tell you what would do it for me: the emergence of significant side-effects from the shot outweighing any drop in fatality. But there just isn't any evidence of that so far.

That's none of your business. In fact, to date, I've never even argued against taking the vaccine of your own volition. This discussion has been about forcing companies to do what they want. Don't try to weasel into another conversation because you clearly have been revealed to be a government cuck.

To be fair, I do enjoy this kind of thing. It forces me to investigate my own beliefs to see if they hold water. I'm curious if I'm alone in that.

If you enjoy this kind of thing, why are you so bad at answering questions? The reality is, you're just cucking to the government because you keep drinking the CNN Kool-aid.

Thank you for this calm and reasoned discussion, Aoi. I'm glad we could both refrain from our most childish impulses.

Thank you for this calm and reasoned discussion, Aoi. I'm glad we could both refrain from our most childish impulses. Originally Posted by howdy_booty

You're the one trying to force everyone to take a vaccine against their will and you're lecturing me about reason? Fuck off.

Admires some Very Bravery and Very Stupidity.
It appears some people are uneducated because without vaccines, they can’t attend any schools in U.S.

Oh it's coming

To be fair, I do enjoy this kind of thing. It forces me to investigate my own beliefs to see if they hold water. I'm curious if I'm alone in that. Originally Posted by howdy_booty

I suspect 99% of folks arguing on the internet are not doing it to challenge their own beliefs. So, yeah, I think you’re in a pretty small group.

I suspect 99% of folks arguing on the internet are not doing it to challenge their own beliefs. So, yeah, I think you’re in a pretty small group. Originally Posted by TinMan

The internet was a mistake.