Freaking Out Over Bareback

Let me draw a distinction for jfred and...But, like I said, you can feel free to have right at it. Originally Posted by Laurentius

I'm not sure what distinction you made in all that, but do appreciate your expanding on what you'd mentioned about your doctor.

But I don't appreciate the tone or the careless implication of that last remark.

Have I advocated going out and "having right at it"? I don't think so.

Do you imagine that I went out and "had right at it"? I've considered the health implications with everyone I've had sex with as an adult, especially without condom.

I started out very conservatively -- no DATY, condoms always for fucking, CBJ okay (and it still is with a lady who has what it takes), nervous as hell every time I got tested...the usual stuff.

But over time the combination of (1) reading on the subject, (2) candid discussions with an assortment of people (physicians, physicians who hobby, other health pros who hobby, nurses and techs at STD testing clinics, and hookers I consider friends), and (3) my own experience, has convinced me that this "insane death wish" business, that keeps getting repeated, has some problems with it.

Does that make sense?

P.S. Now receiving unsolicited PMs from attractive ladies I don't know offering bb. Do you think I'm going to go "have right at it"?

First, jfred, I apologize for being flip.

Next, I want to give you a different take on your evaluation of the risks of BBFS.

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree.

Obviously, as without bareback intercourse our species would not exist, plenty of people engage in bareback intercourse utterly free of harm.

So I'm not arguing that it can't be done.

But I believe it is unwise. And my degree of belief in the lack of wisdom of the course of action is the source of my remark.

The conclusions that people reach regarding bareback will naturally reflect the data to which they are exposed. As well as, admittedly, a propensity that people have (both you and I) to give greater weight to data that agrees with our current beliefs.

You cited conversations with trusted providers as part of the data you used to research your conclusion. But which providers you choose for that discussion makes a difference.

I have a really good friend who is a now-retired provider. Such a good friend that we meet each other's respective families and so forth. I trust her, I am sure, every bit as much as the providers who shared information with you.

But the information she provided was very different; and included tales of providers who knew they had hepatitis offering BBFS to "select" clients for a modest additional fee. Why would she lie to me about that as she is retired, we are no longer having p4p sex, and we are friends involved in each other's families? She has nothing to gain from it.

True, the odds of transmission of hepatitis from woman to man during a single act of BBFS is only like 1% to 2%. Not very high. And the same can be said for HSV-2 under certain circumstances. But the mere fact that an infected provider would offer BBFS to anyone under any circumstances is enough to make someone say Hmmmm.

So her data figures into my conclusions; just as data from other providers figures into yours.

Too, our various exposures will result in each of us applying different weight to data.

I do a great deal of avocational research and have a 600 sq ft laboratory in my home equipped for bacterial, organic chemistry, and electronic research. Over the past few years, I have done so much growing of bacteria that I literally order petri dishes in boxes of 1000. (I have mentioned in other threads that I'm a mad scientist. I'm only halfway kidding.)

Right now I'm growing MRSA and S. pyogenes together in a medium and seeing if, by blocking their respective quorum sensing and thus averting toxin production I can coax them into producing antibiotics useful in competing against each other.

I routinely grow pathogens and more benign bacteria in my laboratory. I do all sorts of investigations. While my knowledge -- like that of all humans -- is limited in any given field; I likely know more about bacterial pathogens at least than most doctors who don't specialize.

But the fact I work with dangerous bacteria from time to time; and routinely take serious precautions to avoid infection; makes the potential danger they represent more present in my mind than it would be for someone else for whom the danger is only theoretical.

So this tends to emphasize presence of risk in my mind. Whether this emphasis is representative of reality or not may be debatable. But my far-beyond-layman's knowledge of infectious disease is not debatable.

And it is also possible that I have a bit more cynical view of the world than you.

As someone who has worked as a mercenary predominantly rescuing kidnap victims from narcotrafficking thugs in a lawless land; I have seen some of the worst things that human beings will do in the pursuit of money.

But even closer to home, if you go digging into the oxycontin debacle; you'll discover that the chief scientist and other management that brought oxycontin to market were convicted of *deliberately* lying to doctors and the public about the addictive qualities of the drug -- portraying it as LESS addictive than alternatives -- in order to make hundreds of millions of dollars. How many lives did they destroy by deliberately misrepresenting the potential harm posed by their product in the name of profit?

The bottom line is that people, even some who are eminently respected and very well qualified, will lie like rugs -- even at the expense of human harm -- for money.

And it doesn't have to be millions of dollars. Every convenience store that you walk into has a camera focused on the register to catch employees stealing.

Now, go back to what my former-provider-friend told me. Combine it with this.

This is where I reach my conclusion that it is generally unwise to engage in BBFS with someone for whom there is a financial motivation to do so.

I said "generally." Obviously, there are absolutely incorruptible people in existence. I believe this to be true. Though they are rare, they exist.

I am absolutely certain that there are providers in existence who, even if you offered them a billion dollars and promised they'd never get caught, wouldn't steal a lolipop from a child in exchange.

But I am also certain that such incorruptible people are outnumbered; and that nature is easily superficially imitated by persons of a more corruptible nature in the interests of deceptions aimed at profit.

And a further difference is in dealing with different medical professionals. My doctor doesn't hobby -- and yours does. Clearly they have a very different overall worldview regarding the practice that no doubt colors one's views to one extreme and perhaps the other's views to another.

While I have dealt with providers who are RNs and PAs, I have never (to my knowledge) seen a provider who is an MD. All of the providers I have seen who are RNs or PAs have been low volume and pretty darned judicious about covers though. Whereas the MDs who hobby with whom you are familiar clearly give BBFS (no doubt under judicious circumstances) the green light.

Though, to be fair, I think it is safe to say that were they to publicly endorse BBFS with prostitutes under even the most judicious of circumstances they might retain their degrees but would quickly lose their licenses. Now, that may just be political correctness, but I don't think so.

To me, my own conclusion seems as obvious as the Sun rising in the East. I will agree that it has a great number of implicit biases in it; as do all human observations. Nevertheless, it seems to me a reasonable basis to forego BBFS in a P4P environment as the risks of incurable deadly diseases are considerably greater without a condom.

My inappropriately flip statement was based on a projection on my part that others would necessarily share some part of my background and exposure; and so was along the same lines as if you had proposed that the earth were flat.

Nevertheless, we will still agree to disagree. While I respect your right to your very different conclusions; I am afraid that I agree with my doctor as to the inappropriate level of risk of BBFS in a P4P environment.

That means I DO consider it to be an unwise choice. But, to be fair, it is a matter of degree of wisdom. After all, I have wound up sick in the doctor's office just from KISSING -- so I realize the distinction is one of degree rather than absolutes.

I had a friend in college who started dating a woman a few years older. He used condoms when they first started fooling around. She was insulted that she could give him a BJ without a condom but he'd use one for sex. After she swore up and down that she had never had an STD he decided to do bareback. Within a month he got herpes. She lied.

Rule #1 - NEVER BELIEVE OR TRUST ANYONE. Unless I see test results showing a clean bill of health it's not going to happen. And that's only accurate for the day the test was done.

Rule #2 - WRAP THAT RASCAL!!!!!

End of story.


This thread should be dead by now. I know the horse is.

I have a really good friend who is a now-retired provider. Such a good friend that we meet each other's respective families and so forth. I trust her, I am sure, every bit as much as the providers who shared information with you.

But the information she provided was very different; and included tales of providers who knew they had hepatitis offering BBFS to "select" clients for a modest additional fee. Why would she lie to me about that as she is retired, we are no longer having p4p sex, and we are friends involved in each other's families? She has nothing to gain from it.

True, the odds of transmission of hepatitis from woman to man during a single act of BBFS is only like 1% to 2%. Not very high. And the same can be said for HSV-2 under certain circumstances. But the mere fact that an infected provider would offer BBFS to anyone under any circumstances is enough to make someone say Hmmmm.




I do a great deal of avocational research and have a 600 sq ft laboratory in my home equipped for bacterial, organic chemistry, and electronic research. Over the past few years, I have done so much growing of bacteria that I literally order petri dishes in boxes of 1000. (I have mentioned in other threads that I'm a mad scientist. I'm only halfway kidding.)

Right now I'm growing MRSA and S. pyogenes together in a medium and seeing if, by blocking their respective quorum sensing and thus averting toxin production I can coax them into producing antibiotics useful in competing against each other.

I routinely grow pathogens and more benign bacteria in my laboratory. I do all sorts of investigations. While my knowledge -- like that of all humans -- is limited in any given field; I likely know more about bacterial pathogens at least than most doctors who don't specialize.

But the fact I work with dangerous bacteria from time to time; and routinely take serious precautions to avoid infection; makes the potential danger they represent more present in my mind than it would be for someone else for whom the danger is only theoretical.

So this tends to emphasize presence of risk in my mind. Whether this emphasis is representative of reality or not may be debatable. But my far-beyond-layman's knowledge of infectious disease is not debatable.
Originally Posted by Laurentius

Two comments: While Hep C is difficult to contract trequires blood-to-blood contact as in sharing hypodermic needles or sex with both partners having open (if microscopic) lesions. Hep A & B, while not as lethal as Hep C, can be far more easily transmitted. Hep A from fecal contamination which can even occur during long hot sweaty sex with oral=genital play even without anal sex. And Hep B can be easily transmitted by other bodily fluids, including but not limited to saliva and mucus. It's possible to contract some forms of hepatitis with totally protected sex with condoms and dental dams.

And the idea that a civilian has a lab in his home growing antibiotic resistant bacteria (MRSA) just for shits and giggles as his "non-hobby" hobby scares me a whole, whole, whole lot more than anybody else partaking in BBFS in this hobby.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, regardless of how uninformed, dangerous, or moronic it might be. What I can't stand is sanctimonious, holier-than-thou bullshit -- assholes getting up on a pulpit and demanding the exposing, humiliation and outcasting of other people regardless of what the reason is.

So you don't agree with BBFS. Great. Don't participate in it. By all means, voice your opinion. But spare me fire-and-brimstone. Stop trying to control other people's behavior and worry about yourself.

And the idea that a civilian has a lab in his home growing antibiotic resistant bacteria (MRSA) just for shits and giggles as his "non-hobby" hobby scares me a whole, whole, whole lot more than anybody else partaking in BBFS in this hobby. Originally Posted by Carl

Don't be scared, I'm licensed. Labs like mine have to be because of the crap I have to order. If it makes you feel any better my hobby makes me money and is done under the auspices of a corporate name and I pay taxes on it. I'm perfectly equipped to keep you safe; and I don't play with stuff, such as viruses, for which I'm not sufficiently equipped. Not all research has to be in a university or part of the Fortune 500 to be both useful and safe.

HERE is what should REALLY scare you: Guess where I got the MRSA for the culture? Got an MRSA infection at the gym.

Guess where I got the strep? From kissing a provider.

Do a search on Google for MRSA and Gym and you'll quickly realize you have a lot more to fear from the weight bench than from me.

Which brings me to an important point about the evils and dangers of a "civilian" mad scientist like me playing with MRSA as opposed to supposed "professionals."

Where did the MRSA come from that I picked up at the gym? Did it come from some lab in someone's house? Some half-cocked mad scientist? Maybe a Taliban nutjob?

Nope. This monstrosity was unleashed upon an unsuspecting public by *professionals*. Specifically, it was unleashed by professionally managed, entirely licensed, properly inspected, exhaustively trained and duly authorized professionals known as PHYSICIANS.(1)

If professionals could keep their house in order, MRSA wouldn't even exist; much less serve as a subject for my perfectly safe investigations.

Number of people who died under the care of professionals from hospital contracted infections last year: 46,000 (2)
Number of people who died from contracting infections in my house EVER: 0

So if you are going to do somebody bareback, most assuredly do NOT do it in a hospital under care of a professional. The odds don't look good.


(1) Berens, M. & Armstrong, K. (2008), How our Hospitals Unleashed an MRSA Epidemic; Seatle Times, Nov 16, 2008
(2) Landro, L. (2010), Study: Half of Infection Deaths Directly Linked to Hispital Care; Wall Street Journal, Feb. 22, 2010

Thanks. I think I'll go take a bath in some bleach now.

Thanks. I think I'll go take a bath in some bleach now. Originally Posted by Carl

The formula for getting rid of 99% of germs is 2/3 cup to a gallon of water. You might want to increase the bleach a little...

Thanks. I think I'll go take a bath in some bleach now. Originally Posted by Carl

Bleach is your friend, just make sure you don't have any ammonia in the tub when you add it or you might get a surprise. ;-)

Seriously, though, I've found that folks who swim in chlorinated pools tend to have fewer skin blemishes; quite likely from the effects of the bleach.

The formula for getting rid of 99% of germs is 2/3 cup to a gallon of water. You might want to increase the bleach a little... Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

Bleach is your friend, just make sure you don't... Originally Posted by Laurentius

Dude, just make sure you don't use it in the concentration that (always helpful) Charles recommends!

Try 2 -3 DROPS per gallon.

Really appreciate the thoughtful, informed, rational input on this page. Thanks. I posted this because I really wanted to talk about it (as opposed to using it as part of my daily sexual titillation) and do want feedback for my own education.

Larry, your work sounds fascinating. I'll try to drop you a PM in the next day or two.

[quote=jfred;499279] But I'd hoped to keep it out of the gutter, where you seem to gravitate.Me? The gutter? How...insulting. I thought both me AND you tended to be in the "gutter"LOL

And you needn't worry your pretty bleached headOh my goodness I'm crying over your insult. Fact is, I have blonde hair and blue eyes. The eyes I can't change, but I DO add highlights to my naturally blonde hair. Do you know my hairdresser?

(I think the lady was just trying to help you.) Really??? Why didn't she send a PM then???????????????????

If anyone lets you have the last word it's only because they despair of any meaningful interchange due to your (so obvious) limitationsSo much "limitations" you choose to back the fuck off....sir

, or just don't want to get down on your level. (Feels grimy to me right now.)You mean "grimy" like the unprotected sex YOU have had with prostitutes??

And "your PMs" all say you're brilliant?Never said my PMs said I was "brilliant" LOL but have agreed with me Mr. BBFS

Hmm, with whom do you correspond? My guess is they were telling you how dim-witted, high-strung and unattractive you appear, and you just didn't get it.I'll be the first to say I'm an unattrctive hag with no sex appeal(how in the fuck do make ANY moneyLOL)but yes sir Mr. BBFS, I do "get it". I suspect that you DON'T[/quote]
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It is interesting to me that no providers seem concerned with a board member with over 800 posts(but no reviews hmmmmmmmm) admits to BBFS with providers. What's up with THAT?????????

Jfred and Sweet Heather need therapy.

...I thought both me AND you tended to be in the "gutter"LOL Originally Posted by Sweet Heather

That should be "...you AND I..." and no baby, that would be you by yourself in that low place. You're LOL'ing alone, too.

...I DO add highlights to my naturally blonde hair...

I don't doubt you were blonde as a baby, but we both know you've been gray for years. (Does the guy who doctors your hips, waist and (poor partially lopped off) boob with the Marks-A-Lot also do those highlights for ya?)

Really??? Why didn't she send a PM then???????????????????

Is that such a mystery to you that it requires 20 question marks? I suspect that she posted openly because the question of your incoherence had already been raised (and rightly so) in the open discussion. She gave her opinion and was very tactful. Your responses were cheap and deplorable behavior. Your PM responses to her would have been the same anyway. At least this way we get to see how you respond to a friendly suggestion that you might be falling short.

So much "limitations" you choose to back the fuck off....sir

I didn't mean that you were limited in your capacity as a nasty woman, Heather, or to drive people away with your vulgar shrilling. I meant your mental limitations. No one could doubt your talent for coming onto someone else's thread and playing in your poop. If I seem to be backing away it's because I find you repugnant.

You mean "grimy" like the unprotected sex YOU have had with prostitutes??

Oh hell no, that was great fun, as usual. What I meant by grimy is the unpleasant feeling one gets when they have an exchange with someone who is dense, unseemly and crude. I doubt you've ever experienced it but it's creepy and unpleasant.

Never said my PMs said I was "brilliant" LOL but have agreed with me Mr. BBFS

Well good, I'm relieved to hear that no one was bullshitting you THAT badly. "LOL"

I'll be the first to say I'm an unattrctive hag with no sex appeal (how in the fuck do make ANY money LOL)...

Well I didn't say that, but I won't contradict you. I wasn't referring to your physical appearance anyway, but rather the impression you present when you speak what there is of your mind. As to "how in the fuck" (crude, Heather) you make money "LOL" as a prostitute, I do confess that I'm stumped for an answer to that. I'm just chalking it up to the sad fact that most dogs and some men will briefly copulate with anything.

It is interesting to me that no providers seem concerned with a board member with over 800 posts (but no reviews hmmmmmmmm) admits to BBFS with providers. What's up with THAT????????? Originally Posted by Sweet Heather

Again, Miss Magic-Marker-Waistline, what's with all the 'mmm"s and the question marks? Is that THE BIG question for you in this (poorer for your participation) thread? You seem to be especially concerned with how others will (or should) respond personally to the things I've discussed here, or how they should feel about me. Why don't you start your own thread about that since you find it so pressing? It's not what we're talking about here.

Can't help smiling at your statement that I have over 800 posts. Your overarching propensity to scramble facts strikes again.

Okay, enough with that.

Doubtless you will succumb to the compulsion to drop back by and spread some more red drivel around the page. You're welcome not to. I may not respond if you do.

P.S. CPI, you're a good neighbor. Sorry that there's been so much bothersome yapping here. It wasn't my goal, in this case . But you know me...when a gal like Heather sets herself up as an easy (but obnoxious) target I have a hard time not taking pot-shots. I do need therapy. Take me out for a beer (or something).