New Private Forum Proposal

Chevalier, I think Rehke defined very well what a civil discourse is ...
The tone can be high and passionate but at the same time with respect and dignity ...
Conversations should never be restricted otherwise what the point is? ...
There is a difference between insults: http://www.eccie.net/showpost.php?p=...2&postcount=84

And where the questioning or subject is uncomfortable, but done without insulting and in a respectful way ...
http://www.eccie.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=128

How about we define "like-minded individuals" as those willing to agree to hold a civil discourse and treat each other with respect and dignity regardless of differing opinions on whatever topic is being discussed?

Beyond that, I'd prefer to hear honest and complete differences with my way of looking at things. Yeah, agreement is great to confirm some things, but I also like to hear disagreement or alternative viewpoints that make me consider other angles and approaches to a topic. Originally Posted by Rehke

This is actually a decent illustration of the difficulty of defining exactly what "more civil discussion" means. Is it a question of tone? Is it restricting the conversation strictly to comments about topics or issues rather than about other posters, which could be interpreted as ad hominem attacks? Is it "civil" as long as responding to someone else who started it first? How pointed can criticism of a topic be? Does it take into account who posted it -- i.e., somewhat different standards based on the poster's history?

It's very difficult to define or to apply in a way with which the entire group will concur, unless it's a very small group that never discusses anything about which they have strong and conflicting opinions. Can you define, or apply in ways that will gain consensus, such that you distinguish, say, phildo's comments (other than the last one) in this thread and, say, this comment in another thread http://www.eccie.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=136 ? Some will see a clear difference between the two but struggle to define it precisely; some won't see that big of a difference. Perspective, and whose side you're on, is everything.

That's why every online group I've seen that maintains a high degree of civility tends to either be very small or have limited participation. I'm certainly not saying a bigger group can't maintain civility, but it's hard.

The one big advantage you have is that you're not trying to make a profit and your costs will be low (I think). So you can kick people out more readily. Of course, that irritates some people as well.

But the ads by location and short notice availability components don't have the same problem and apparently have strong support.

In any event, good luck. Originally Posted by Chevalier

Ouch, Chevalier, well played!

It probably is as much about tone as it is substance. Using myself as an example, I'm likely going to couch a position in much different language here than in the ML, while attempting to convey very similar thoughts. If I know I have to play by different rules because of forum rules, I can do so.

I suspect that most of the folks that have contributed to this thread are smart enough to know the same, and that just because they didn't play nice on occasion in another forum doesn't mean they won't in THN's. It's kind of like eccie's owners' original position when they started this site: we are going to start with a clean slate and give everyone an opportunity to be a contributing member, regardless of how you were viewed on aspd. I think that was a wise choice. Originally Posted by TinMan

Thank you, Tinman. You have an excellent and unbiased way of illustrating the obvious for those who tend to be more biased.

This isn't intended in anyway to be some shitty effort at playing personal faves or swaying opinions bc I'm "the leader". Objectivity and pragmatism are vital to the success of the new forum.

At this point there is a lot of support for the forum and I am really excited to move forward! Obviously, this has been in the making for quite a while. I have discussed the idea with a few different gents over the last months. The final push was seeing how positively ladies and gents responded to a thread about being in the hobby for while and how that changes you vs another running at the same time that was nothing but venomous - joke or not.

Seeing those two running side by side in coed gave me the idea for the final touches to the private ad forum I had in mind - that you had to be well-behaved to use it.

If some of you don't like the rules then don't join the forum or start your own. Simple as that.

Just like anything else, time will tell the true intentions of anything or anyone. I know what my intentions are and eventually so will everyone else. Why would I set myself up to look incompetent, vindictive and greedy?

This forum is really and truly about providing a valuable service to the community in an more civil environment. No pushing, no shoving, no intimidating, no board games. Just your basic information exchange - without all the bullshit.

It probably is as much about tone as it is substance. Using myself as an example, I'm likely going to couch a position in much different language here than in the ML, while attempting to convey very similar thoughts. If I know I have to play by different rules because of forum requirements, I can do so.

I suspect that most of the folks that have contributed to this thread are smart enough to know the same, and that just because they didn't play nice on occasion in one forum doesn't mean they won't in another. Originally Posted by TinMan

Ah, but you're not really typical. You're always calm and civil even when you strongly disagree and even with people you dislike and even when provoked. In over 10 years, I don't think I've ever seen you lose your temper and lash out You are what THN's forum should aspire to, but I think you over-estimate other people's ability to follow your example. Hopefully, you will be proved right and I will be proved wrong.

Ah, but you're not really typical. You're always calm and civil even when you strongly disagree and even with people you dislike and even when provoked. In over 10 years, I don't think I've ever seen you lose your temper and lash out You are what THN's forum should aspire to, but I think you over-estimate other people's ability to follow your example. Hopefully, you will be proved right and I will be proved wrong. Originally Posted by Chevalier

+1! Tinman is in a class all his own! His board posture is ideal for sure but not realistic for everyone obviously.
People get passionate about their opinions. As long as it is a genuine opinion and not just caddy mudslinging I don't see it being an issue in the forum. The people who continually act hateful toward others are the people I'm hoping to avoid in the new forum. There's always room for criticism and difference of opinion but the bullying and board stalking can stay in the public forum. I've just had enough of that stuff.

Just to say again THN, a most excellent idea. You are a marvel, a well spoken woman, with a creative mind.

A fan....

Chevalier, I think Rehke defined very well what a civil discourse is ...
The tone can be high and passionate but at the same time with respect and dignity ...
Conversations should never be restricted otherwise what the point is? ...
There is a difference between insults: http://www.eccie.net/showpost.php?p=...2&postcount=84

And where the questioning or subject is uncomfortable, but done without insulting and in a respectful way ...
http://www.eccie.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=128
Originally Posted by DarthDVader

Sometimes Respectful is in the eye of the beholder.

A correction - I excluded from "arguably civil" phildo's "last post." I should have checked back. What I had in mind as his "last post" is the one you linked to. I did not intend to describe his post that you just linked as "arguably civil." On that post, yes, I think you find a consensus to the contrary. My apologies for any confusion.

THN seems to have considered his earlier posts acceptable.

In phildo's defense (not white maidening here since i've never met him but), he is known for being pretty cynical. I do appreciate his posture on this thread though, he's managed to keep the insults down while still interacting on the thread, which exemplifies nature of the forum. Thank you phildo. Originally Posted by thathotnurse

As did I. But you, DVD, were criticizing his tone and posts before that one, in a way that sounded rather personal. I thought you (and others) considered those earlier posts to be uncivil. Perhaps I misread your (and others') reaction to those earlier posts.

This forum is really and truly about providing a valuable service to the community in an more civil environment. No pushing, no shoving, no intimidating, no board games. Just your basic information exchange - without all the bullshit. Originally Posted by thathottnurse

How is this forum going to be moderated? Will this be a private members only forum? What new information will this forum provide that I'm not already getting? Not for it or against it, I just want to understand more.

Nice swing and take on the civility Chevalier et all. Tinman I think everyone would agree is reasonable and considerate. I believe you can have civil discussions with differing opinions - happens all of the time at home and work. Take DDV - we've disagreed and I respect the way he responds and agree with much of what he posts - total respect for him. His tone to me, as I take it, is considerate and respectful. I'm as guilty as anyone of being tough sometimes - I state my honest opinion. I try not to, but I sometimes take pop shots but I hate that because that's not my normal character. Luckily for me people have been understanding when I do so.

Does everyone agree with EVERY post someone types? Of course not, but in the civilized world you respond appropriately. Easier on here to not be civilized because we have an hour to edit and we won't see many of the people in person. I've never taken a shot at someone I plan to ever see - if I took at a shot at them I obviously don't like them. BUT, out of respect for others I have bitten my tongue if someone I know likes a person I do not. Besides the physical groups, there are sub groups - Tara or Lola fans for example - I'm sure they have a mutual respect for each other based on their adoration of said lady. Look at posts - I have that respect for some guys - DDV for example because of our adoration of THN.

Hmmm - is this a rant as I sit here and eat my lunch or make some actual sense? Don't know, on my iPhone so it's too hard to go back and read everything.

I will try to moderate it the same manner in which I have moderated it's introductory thread here - professionally and as needed. But not as visibly. Issues that arise will be handled discretely if at all possible.

It will have more precise location based ad thread stickies, an fbsm only ad sticky and a short notice availibilty ad sticky.

To my knowledge, those are not available on the open forum without a lot of time and effort on the part of the gent. It will be out of the public eye and screened - that is also not available in the open forum so utr providers may feel more secure posting ads in there.

How is this forum going to be moderated? Will this be a private members only forum? What new information will this forum provide that I'm not already getting? Not for it or against it, I just want to understand more. Originally Posted by biglatinmale

As for the last question, if the initial idea didn't contain something that you thought was lacking in the general forums, then it is likely of no interest to you. For me, as an example, I want to see more short-notice posts from ladies and ads that are more specific to the general location in which I hobby.

If I wasn't as time-constrained and geographically-challenged as I am, I'd probably pass on it as well.

if I took at a shot at them I obviously don't like them. BUT, out of respect for others I have bitten my tongue if someone I know likes a person I do not. Originally Posted by EasyLover214

A lot of people take that approach, and maybe that will work out well in THN's forum. Personally, I think better would be the way I would characterize Tinman's approach. Disagree with ideas or opinions, and state facts (e.g., in a tactful negative review), calmly -- and don't make negative comments about the person's character or personality (that is, no negative attacks), even if one dislikes that person.

That's my personal preference, and aspiration. I don't claim to live up to it, and I certainly would not insist that should be the governing philosophy of THN's forum, even if I intended to be a member.

One thing that inevitably evolves in small, private, clique forums is the disintegration of discretion. In every one that I have witnessed the process goes like this. The members feel special and a family / friendship element kicks in. Next, everyone is chummy and exchanging too much personal information, getting together for drinks / dinner / lunch. Then the inevitable rift develops, members are pressured into taking sides, vendettas develop and....it's all downhill from there.

Small and cozy can turn out much worse than big and anonymous. Usually the people who want small and cozy are those with the thinnest skins and there lies a big problem.

If you have an answer to deal with all that, than I wish those going in the best of luck.

It boils down to this...

Who is footing the bill.

The Golden Rule is he who has the gold makes the rules.

If THN wants this forum and is paying the bill then it is her rules, regardless of anyone's opinion. But if you attempt to spread the cost you will have a harder time with a few chiefs enforcing their opinion of what is proper discourse.

Frankly, several of the posters here have been through this before. Whether or not you agree, the owners of a private forum felt differently and people were excused.

This proposition is difficult and time consuming AT BEST. There is a reason they don't last.

It boils down to this...

Who is footing the bill.

The Golden Rule is he who has the gold makes the rules.

If THN wants this forum and is paying the bill then it is her rules, regardless of anyone's opinion. But if you attempt to spread the cost you will have a harder time with a few chiefs enforcing their opinion of what is proper discourse.

Frankly, several of the posters here have been through this before. Whether or not you agree, the owners of a private forum felt differently and people were excused.

This proposition is difficult and time consuming AT BEST. There is a reason they don't last. Originally Posted by Boltfan

Holy fuckballs. And Darth called ME a cynic!! And that Jarvis dude sounds like an echo...echo...echo...I feel like joining hands with them and singing Kumbaya.

So now that this topic has reached beyond the point of fluff and OTHER cynics are asking "where's the beef'?" will this move forward? Or, does the ostentatious and continuous silence on that subject make this a threAD of epic proportions?

Shoot, just put a "Full Contact/No Holds Barred" sub-forum within the new forum and funnel all the objectionable discussion there. Call it the "Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here...." sub-forum -- kind of a Sandbox on steroids sort of place where people who don't post with the requisite degree of hostility are given the boot back to Candyland. Now that's an mf'er I can moderate....

Just a thought, but with all these sub-forums, this is sounding more like an entire "board" unto itself than merely a new "forum." Not that there's anything wrong with that.