Please list/mention Obama's Accomplishments

Stern, theres no point in trying to reason with F Shart. Hes been brainwashed. There are very powerful lobbies who want the western world to turn into a crime infested third world shithole, and brainwashing via the mainstream media has proven to be quite successful.

Taking money that has been rightfully earned and giving it to someone who had no hand in earning it isn't the solution either. If I make millions of dollars I should be the one to decide if I wish to give it away or not.

Working hard to become a success at something has long been the American dream because of the rewards it can reap. Nobody will feel inclined to innovate or work hard if they know the financial benefits will just be taken from them in the end. Originally Posted by Sternomancer

You're missing the point. The issue is not taking away money rightfully earned, the issue is over each of us paying a fair and proportionate share of those earnings. Top earners are not paying their fair share and we have a lack of revenue as a result. There's other issues at play here as well. It's a known fact that the wealthy are by and large responsible for job creation in this country. Currently, those jobs are being sent to third world countries while the wealthy enjoy huge tax breaks and subsidies. Do you disgree that some incentive is perhaps needed to motivate these employers from doing this? Why provide tax breaks and subsidies to employers who refuse to invest in their own country's economy or refuse to provide employment for it's citizens? We know for a fact tax breaks do not equate to job creation. Look no further than the Bush years for proof of this. What has our job growth been since the Bush tax cuts were enacted? Look it up.

It is also a known fact that the wealthy mostly benefit from capital gains. Why should the wealthy be allowed to benefit in the form of tax breaks on capital gains while placing their money in investments abroad?

Capitalism only works if the money is kept at home.

Of the history of the American Revolution and early American history I can recall, illegal immigration wasn't an issue in the formation of the Constitution leading to inclusion in it. What part of it are they violating? Originally Posted by Sternomancer

In the case of Arizona and Alabama, both the Fourth (Search & seizure) and the Fourteenth Amendment (both the Supremacy clause and Equal Protection clause). In a nutshell, being Mexican is not considered "probable cause" in the eyes of the law. Federal law always takes precidence over State law, and all laws must be applied equally and fairly.

From what I've heard the laws regulating illegal immigration are federal laws enacted separately from the Constitution. Originally Posted by Sternomancer

"From what I've heard" might just be part of the problem here. Look up Title 8, Section 12 of the United States code. It doesn't matter that the U.S. Code was enacted seperately from the Constitution. The Fourteenth Ammendment dictates that Federal law supercedes State law.

Why are States wrong for enforcing them if the feds won't or can't do it? I believe the 10th Amendment granting States powers not specifically granted to the federal government gives them a good legal standing. Originally Posted by Sternomancer

It may, but being "wrong" is relative now isn't it? Our country was built on immigration and not everyone shares the view that illegal immigrants are truly a problem. Consider the goal in such legislation as Arizona and Alabama have proposed? Is it their goal to actually enforce immigration laws, or do they simply want to kick Mexicans out of their states? My money is on the latter, and that they're not interested in too many Canadians here that have overstayed their visas. That my friend is not enforcing anything but racism and prejudice.

Besides, illegal immigration is just that - illegal. Anyone crossing the borders as such is a criminal and should be dealt with regardless of whatever country they come from and not allowed to move through the country as they please. Originally Posted by Sternomancer

I'm afraid it's not that simple. Crossing the border is indeed a criminal act, but only about half of all illegals are border jumpers. The rest of them are visa over-stayers that have not commited any crime. Simply being here undocumented is a civil matter, not a criminal matter.

Now, I am going to share a few statistics with you, but you need to answer this question for yourself. What's your real problem with illegal immigrants and what would you do to solve that problem?

Most folks have this strange notion that they should all "be deported". Ever think about that reallistically? Best estimates I've read claim there are about 20 million undocumented aliens in this country. How are we going to round up, incarcerate, provide for, and process 20 million people? Our entire prison and jail population contains about 2.2 million people. Where in the hell would you put 20 million people? Who would pay for all the new detention centers that would have to be built? Who's going to pay to care for 20 million people while they are processed and ultimately deported? It costs $129 a day to house one inmate. Math time, and you Republican Tea Party types should appreciate this, being all anti-big government and all:

20 million x $129 = $2,580,000,000

That's right, two and half BILLION dollars PER DAY it would cost us to detain 20 million people. How long do you suppose it would take to process all these people once detained? Months? Years? The thought is staggering. That's not even including the cost of all the new detention centers that would have to be built, the new judges that would need to be hired, and the thousands upon thousands of new DHS employees that we would need to go out and round up these people. Incidentally, you going to give these new DHS folks a badge and a gun and say "Go get em"? Are they going to go door to door asking people for papers at gunpoint? Welcome to 1984, Police State much? Consider that it took Hitler six years to round up 11 million Jews. He had an entire army and he was really trying! How long do you suppose it would take us to round up 20 million illegals?

Now, ever considered the cost in revenue or output? Most anti-immigration meatheads don't want to believe or even consider this, but what do you suppose would happen to our economy if we removed 20 million undocumented aliens? You think these people are a tax burden? Hardly! I've read quite the contrary that these folks are pulling in far more dollars than they are costing. Our economy is devasated at the moment mostly because of lack of revenue and 9% unemployment represents only about 14 million people. You want to take another 20 million folks out of our revenue streams? 20 million people that buy things (sales tax), rent apartments (property tax), buy and drive automobiles (gasoline tax, registration), and WORK! Yes, work. Not all of them work under the table and many are paying in to Federal coffers just like you and I. The only difference is that undocumented aliens are inelligible to collect Social Security, welfare, or unemployment benefits like you and me.

There's been some very good studies done to support all this, I would encourage you to read some of them. One was done right here in Texas by our former comptroller and resident Granny Carole Strayhorn who said this:

"The absence of the estimated 1.4 million undocumented immigrants in Texas in fiscal 2005 would have been a loss to our gross state product of $17.7 billion. Undocumented immigrants produced $1.58 billion in state revenues, which exceeded the $1.16 billion in state services they received. However, local governments bore the burden of $1.44 billion in uncompensated health care costs and local law enforcement costs not paid for by the state."

http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/undocumented/


Here's a few more:


"Based on this study, the total state tax revenue attributable to immigrant workers was an estimated $2.4 billion (about $860 million for naturalized citizens plus about $1.5 billion for non-citizens). Balanced against incremental fiscal costs of $1.4 billion for education, health care, and law enforcement, immigrants in Arizona generated a net 2004 fiscal contribution of about $940 million toward services such as public safety, libraries, road maintenance, and other areas."

It also does a disservice to those who immigrate legally and put in the time and effort to become a citizen. Originally Posted by Sternomancer

The above post is a perfect example of someone who needs a real social life and some real friends.... Sad so sad.

F-Sharp-"It may, but being "wrong" is relative now isn't it? Our country was built on immigration and not everyone shares the view that illegal immigrants are truly a problem"

Really? Tell you what, put in a FOIA request to Austin PD asking them to release stats on how many crimes in Austin are committed annually by illegal immigrants. Care to know what you'll get? A refusal. That's right, an outright refusal to comply with the FOIA. Why? Because the Federal Government tells them not to release that info. Then approach any Austin PD Detective that works property crimes and ask them how many of the property crimes in Austin are committed by illegal aliens. You'll quickly discover that depending on the location and type of crime, many times over HALF of these crimes, including burglary of vehicle, burglary of habitation, burglary of business, etc are committed by illegal immigrants in our city. You don't think THAT'S a problem?

You also flat out misrepresented what Arizona and Alabama were trying to accomplish with their law. No, you could NOT be stopped simply for "looking Mexican" as you put it. If however a Police Officer made lawful contact with you, ie...you committed a traffic violation, were a suspect of a crime etc...and during the course of that stop he developed probable cause to believe that you were in the country illegally, it gave him the right to detain you. What's wrong with that?

As it stands now in Austin, our Police Officers are FORBIDDEN to contact Immigration even when the subject admits to being in the country illegally and even if he's committed a crime. Austin is a "Sanctuary City" meaning it's a magnet for a criminal element within the illegal alien population since they know our police can't take action even when they KNOW they are illegal. It's ridiculous. No other country would put up with that.

As far as us not wanting to pay our fair share in taxes? How is paying over 1/4 (and closer to a third if you add in the money we spend on property, sales, gasoline and other taxes) of your check to the government each and every month NOT paying our fair share?
And surely you jest when you say that we republicans continue to vote to spend more money. Last I checked it was a Democratic controlled Congress until 2010. The Democrats had control for almost FIVE years. Last I checked it's the Democrats fighting tooth and nail against spending cuts. The truth is the majority of "cuts" aren't cuts at all, simply a promise to stop spending more.

And like it's been pointed out. No one is stopping YOU, Hollywood mouthpieces or any liberal elitists from paying MORE money to the IRS if you feel so strongly that our government deserves more of our money. As the saying goes, put your money where your mouth is.
Do that and then lecture on wealth distribution and all the other ridiculous notions that are being put forth. Somehow though, I'm confident in assuming that you won't be sending any extra money to the IRS come beginning of next year.

I think we should all just ask our employers to give us a 1/4 more in pay increase per year. Hey Boss I need pay raise this year since I have found more gadgets and things to buy to make my life more pleasurable. When he says no, just say why not the government increases what they need every year.....

If you think the government is so much better at spending your hard earned dollars give them your checkbook. Don't get upset when it has a negative balance and you can't feed your family.

Warren Buffet said that the rich can pay more money. Then why does this guy have a team of accounts to save him money on taxes. He could just get rid of that department and pay more taxes.

I am all for getting rid of tax loop holes and simplifying the tax code. Just do not raise taxes because that affects the consumer more than the rich. The added cost of taxes is just passed on to the consumer. In turn that hurts small business owners and the middle class. Real world economics and common sense.

Illegals.....I do not know about you, but when I get stopped for speeding I have to show my DL to the officer. I think illegals should have to show their DL as well. If you are here illegal and not legally there is a reason for that so deport their ass.

F-Sharp-"It may, but being "wrong" is relative now isn't it? Our country was built on immigration and not everyone shares the view that illegal immigrants are truly a problem"

Really? Tell you what, put in a FOIA request to Austin PD asking them to release stats on how many crimes in Austin are committed annually by illegal immigrants. Care to know what you'll get? A refusal. That's right, an outright refusal to comply with the FOIA. Why? Because the Federal Government tells them not to release that info. Then approach any Austin PD Detective that works property crimes and ask them how many of the property crimes in Austin are committed by illegal aliens. You'll quickly discover that depending on the location and type of crime, many times over HALF of these crimes, including burglary of vehicle, burglary of habitation, burglary of business, etc are committed by illegal immigrants in our city. You don't think THAT'S a problem? Originally Posted by DTorrchia

Not sure what one thing has to do with the other, meaning, what the fuck does crime have to do with illegal immigration? Criminals are criminals, here legally or not, which is exacly why the FBI does not track those statistics. Arizona tried to make this same case trying to convince the pea brains in that state that illegal aliens were responsible for all the crime there. They're not. The fact of the matter is that Arizona and other border states do have a crime problem, but it has nothing to do with "illegal aliens". It has to do with drug traffickers and cartels who are constantly fighting over the drug trade in these states. Going after undocumented aliens who simply came here for a better life is not going to solve that problem. Law enforcement already has all the legal tools they need at their disposal to deal with that problem, and immigration legislation wont benefit them in the least. That is, of course that instead of arresting and convicting drug mules caught carrying a few hundred pounds of pot across the border they would rather ask them for papers to prove that they are in the country legally. The whole idea of it is simply ridiculous. I lived in Arizona for two years and I can tell you that the law enforcement there is not only under-funded, but incompetent as well.

Let's look at it another way....

If what you are saying is true, then our prison population would reflect a disproportionate amount of hispanics given that 50% of all illegal aliens are of hispanic decent. So, if "over HALF of these crimes" are committed by illegal aliens, then we would expect to see "over HALF" of our prison population to be of hispanic decent right? Well, here's the breakdown by citizenship, not even close to half!

United States:158,374(73.1 %)Mexico:39,871(18.4 %)Colombia:2,554(1.2 %)Cuba:1,712(0.8 %)Dominican Republic:2,540(1.2 %)Other/Unknown:11,658(5.4 %)

http://www.bop.gov/news/quick.jsp

In fact, most of the other statictics I've read show that hispanics don't commit any more crime than any other nationallity and are on par or less than their make-up of our population. If you're going to use crime as a determination as to who you're gonna deport, starting with U.S. citizens who make up 73.1% of the prison population according to these statistics would be a far wiser choice.

The statistics just don't reflect the outright conjecture you've tried to base your argument on. It would appear that whoever or wherever you're hearing this bullshit of yours from is probably just making it up.

You also flat out misrepresented what Arizona and Alabama were trying to accomplish with their law. No, you could NOT be stopped simply for "looking Mexican" as you put it. If however a Police Officer made lawful contact with you, ie...you committed a traffic violation, were a suspect of a crime etc...and during the course of that stop he developed probable cause to believe that you were in the country illegally, it gave him the right to detain you. What's wrong with that? Originally Posted by DTorrchia

What's wrong with that is the probable cause part. You tell me what probable cause law enforcement might have in detaining a Canadian caucasion who dresses and talks just like you and me, with a valid drivers license, here on an overstayed visa and pulled over for speeding down the 10 freeway in Phoenix. What possible reason does the officer have to detain him and check the status of his citizenship? He doesn't. Here's your ticket, "Have a nice day".

The state law can not be applied fairly and equally, and singles out one race of people, which is partly why the courts have deemed it unconstituional. Additionally as stated before, simply being in this country "illegally" is not a criminal offense under Federal law, it's a civil matter dealt with in civil court. Arizona and Alabama have tried to make it a crime hence attempting to supercede Fedeal law, another constitutional violation.

You want to go after border jumpers? Go for it! It's already a criminal offense and you don't need SB1070, or anything else in addition to the laws that are already in place to do it.

Didn't you learn ANY of this stuff in school? I mean seriously, these are basic, fundamental Constitutional rights and laws we're talking about here. I guess the public school system has really gone to shit since I attended.

As far as us not wanting to pay our fair share in taxes? How is paying over 1/4 (and closer to a third if you add in the money we spend on property, sales, gasoline and other taxes) of your check to the government each and every month NOT paying our fair share? Originally Posted by DTorrchia

What "us" are you talking about? I was referring to the 5% of the population making over $250,000 a year. I don't fall in to that category, do you? There's no "us" in that equation.

The above post is a perfect example of someone who needs a real social life and some real friends.... Sad so sad. Originally Posted by Wyldeman30

You offering to be my friend Wyldeman?

You offering to be my friend Wyldeman? Originally Posted by F-Sharp

I don't make friends with bitter self loathing people.... Maybe if you changed your whole rational and forgive all those that picked on you in your youth just maybe you will make some friends. I really hope you can find some happiness someday.

Just for you Sharp.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...-10391695.html

By Laura Strickler and Jack Weingart




New data from the Arizona Department of Corrections shows that undocumented immigrants are increasingly over-represented in the state's prison population.



In June 2010, undocumented immigrants represented 14.8 percent of Arizona state prisoners, but accounted for only 7 percent of the state's overall population according to the Department of Homeland Security.




The new data also revealed for the first time a breakdown of crimes for which undocumented immigrants were incarcerated.



For example of all the prisoners serving time in Arizona state prisons for kidnapping, 40 percent were undocumented. Of those in prison on drug charges, 24 percent were undocumented. And 13 percent of those serving time for murder were undocumented immigrants, according to the new data from the Arizona Department of Corrections.



The number of undocumented immigrants in Arizona state prisons has also grown in recent years. In December, 2004 there were 4,098 undocumented immigrants in the Arizona state prison population making up 12.6 percent according to state data. By June 2010 the number had increased to 14.8 percent for a total of 5,983 incarcerated undocumented immigrants.



Criminologist professor James Alan Fox from Northeastern University was not surprised by the new information, "You take any population that tends to be poor and you will have a higher rate of individuals in prison," he said. "One, there is a correlation between social class and criminality and two there's a correlation between social class and the likelihood you'll be sent to prison for the same crime as compared to people in a higher social class."



Fox says this is due in part to inadequate legal representation for low-income people. And he adds: "There's a title of an old book the rich get richer; the poor get prison."



FBI crime data indicates a 10 percent decline in Arizona's crime rate from 2000 to 2009 which some see as a sign that undocumented immigrants have not made the state more violent overall.



Tonight on the CBS Evening News, correspondent Bill Whitaker examines this question and speaks to law enforcement officials in Arizona about the connection between immigration and crime.

Did you read what you posted Budman? .. or are you agreeing with F-sharp? All your article proved out is what poor blacks have known for decades... he has the money skates, he who has the public defender goes to jail. For the undocumented his friends and family don't even show up to watch.

I am all for getting rid of tax loop holes and simplifying the tax code. Just do not raise taxes because that affects the consumer more than the rich. The added cost of taxes is just passed on to the consumer. In turn that hurts small business owners and the middle class. Real world economics and common sense.. Originally Posted by Wyldeman30

Where exactly do you get this backward ass logic of yours from exactly? You don't have the even the slightest clue about economics do you? Well, here's some "Real world economics" for you. Without raising taxes, this country will lose it's credit rating within the next decade. We are well beyond the ability to pay off our debt by simply closing loopholes and simplifying the tax code. Anyone who thinks differently must have failed 5th grade math. I have some more bad news for you, a small hike in taxes should be the least of your worries if we do loose our current credit rating. We're talking about hundreds of billions of dollars in interest and massive inflation world wide if that happens.

"A downgrade would increase the borrowing costs. JP Morgan already estimated a downgrade would cost the U.S. government $100 billion a year. But the buck doesn't stop there, the higher interest rate and payments would trickle down to state, local governments, business and individual as well, since most loan interest rates are benchmarked against the U.S. Treasury rate.

A downgrade could also have a negative impact on the dollar, driving up consumer inflation, while diminishing consumer purchasing power. Moreover, the U.S. treasury accounts for a significant portion of many portfolios around the world, as it is historically the "safe" investment. A downgrade of U.S. bonds would have a serious wealth reducing effect on a global scale. It would also derail consumer and business confidence. No investment/spending equals no new job creations, which would make the unemployment situation even worse."

http://seekingalpha.com/article/2844...edit-downgrade

Illegals.....I do not know about you, but when I get stopped for speeding I have to show my DL to the officer. I think illegals should have to show their DL as well. If you are here illegal and not legally there is a reason for that so deport their ass. Originally Posted by Wyldeman30

You Sir are truly amazing! In the very same paragraph you gripe about tax hikes, then insist we foot the bill for our government to deport 20 million people. This is such typical mindless Republican logic. You want something until the bill comes due, then gripe about having to pay for it. It is nothing short of amazing, and you have to applaud someone who can be so outlandishly hypocritical in public.

Just for you Sharp.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...-10391695.html
Originally Posted by Budman

A slightly higher illegal inmate population would be expected in a border state such as Arizona. You might also consider that they've been trying to "crack down" on illegals there for many years now, which you would expect to lead to a disporportionate amount caught and incarcertated. All you proved was what I already said, Arizona has a crime problem, not an illegal alien problem. One does not have anything to do with the other. You also are not taking in to account that the hispanic population, including illegals has dropped considerably in the last few years. Most of that inmate population was most likely caught and incarcerated when they made up more than 11% of the state before all this b/s starting going down.

Arizona poulation, 2009 - 6,595,778
Estimate illegal immigrant population - 560,000

6,595,778 / 560,000 = 11.77%

"The federal government estimated that Arizona had one of the fastest growing illegal immigrant populations in the country, increasing from 330,000 in 2000 to 560,000 by 2008.1"

"Arizona has adopted other laws to deter the settlement of illegal immigrants in the state in recent years. The federal government estimates that the illegal immigrant population dropped by 18 percent in the state from 2008 to 2009, compared to a 7 percent drop for the nation as a whole.2 This may be evidence that the state enforcement efforts are having an impact."

http://www.cis.org/Announcement/AZ-Immigration-SB1070

Keep trying though, you're at least digging for information and that's a big improvement in and of itself! And it's a lot more than I can say for others around here.

EDIT: Whoa! Hold on just a minute...I just re-read what you wrote with a different eyes. Were you actually defending something I posted?

Sharp,
I certainly don't agree with you. My point is you can find and spin numbers to suit your needs regardless of where stand on an issue. You make the claim that it is understandable that a border state would have a higher percentage. You're right but your numbers are watered down by lumping in all the states that don't have an illegal alien problem.

BM33,
This isn't about their legal representation or their position in the income food chain. It was purely about prison population.

Sharp,
I certainly don't agree with you. My point is you can find and spin numbers to suit your needs regardless of where stand on an issue. You make the claim that it is understandable that a border state would have a higher percentage. You're right but your numbers are watered down by lumping in all the states that don't have an illegal alien problem.

BM33,
This isn't about their legal representation or their position in the income food chain. It was purely about prison population. Originally Posted by Budman

Well, for a moment let's put aside the rhetoric and not talk about the crime problem, but consider solutions to the actual "illegal alien problem". We know that deporting 20 million people is impossible, both from a logistical and financial standpoint.

I've been saying forever that if you want to solve this "problem" once and for all, you need to address the cause and not the symptoms. Take away their reasons for coming here and the issue will resolve itself; ie: jobs, education, and healthcare. Make employing an illegal so henious that employers wont think twice about it. Require all education facilities to verify residency status before allowing students to attend. I wouldn't go so far as to deny a sick and dying person medical attention, but I would require health providers to report anyone without medical insurance to the proper authorities. This of course is assuming the mandate in the new healthcare legislation sticks, but there are other options if it doesn't.

I also have another proposal. Even if you did these things I suggest above, it still leaves 20 million people here without jobs and most likely homeless. Most would be displaced having been here so long and unable to return to their country of origin. How about a guest worker visa with a path to citizenship? I envision that if they have no prior criminal record and can pass a basic health exam, we create a program in which these folks could register for a work visa. Under this program, they would remain employed for five years and both migrant and employer would be taxed a percentage for the privilege. This would solve two problems at once...the first makes these people legal and as such would all be tax-paying and contributing to the Federal purse, and the additional percentage of their income would be also be added to the coffers, not only paying for the program itself, but bring in additional revenue. Even at 5%, imagine how quickly our deficit would resolve itself. Anyone want to do the math on that? I've put my calculator away for the evening.

The employer charge has two purposes. One, it would add to revenue streams, but more importantly it would also serve as motivation to hire legal residents first.

Most Republicans are against this type of reform saying it's "rewarding criminals" and a bunch of other shit that makes no real sense. Fact is, we only punish ourselves by not implementing it, and these folks are not going away any time soon.

Sharp,
I’m not going to get into a long political debate with you but I will address this issue. Here is what I think needs to be done.


1. Seal our borders. Stem the wave of illegals coming into our country.


2. Streamline the process for people to enter legally.

3. Eliminate the anchor baby rule.


4. Put in place a reasonable process to determine if someone is legally allowed to work here.


5. Decide what to do with the 10-20 million illegals already here. Deporting them is not feasible but rewarding them is not the answer either. I’m not sure what the answer is but IMO if you are convicted of anything you are deported and never allowed to enter the US again.


6. Sue every sanctuary city in the country.

7. Eliminate any public funds that go to illegals. No food stamps, welfare, instate tuition, medical care, ect. The only medical care should be life threatening emergencies.

I’ve heard numerous politicians scream about how the blame lies with the employers. If we didn’t hire them they would leave. We should fine the employers. Make an example out of them This may sound good for the audience but it is bullshit. I ran a construction company for over 25 years and we hired hundreds of skilled laborers. Most were Mexicans. By law we were required to get a copy of a SS card and one other form of ID. A list of acceptable ID’s was provided by the federal government. I’m not sure what system is in place now but when I was involved there was not a way to verify if the SS #’s were good or not. In one case we were notified by the IRS that one of our employees SS # was not any good. He had been with us for several years. Once it was determined that he was using a forged SS card we told the IRS that we would let him go. The IRS told us that we could not fire him for this. Figure that one out. Until the feds put a process in place to immediately verify the SS # of potential employees and make a SS card that can’t be forged by a second grader don’t tell me the employers are to blame. In the case of Walmart being sued for hiring illegals. That was purely for show and going after the deep pocket. Walmart hired a subcontractor to handle a specific job. The subcontractor hired illegals. Do you think Walmart should be responsible for checking the status of every employee of their subcontractor?