I am a Indy but like obama

Real quick:

San Marino would be a good representative sample of this country if we had 300 million wealthy caucasion bankers, with no drug problems, gun violence, or third world immigrants.

Health and Wealth are linked - many studies have been done....in fact, they were used to support the bill.

Drugs and Alcohol cause 'preventable death' as the WHO terms it. Our country has more guns. Our country has more young people. Our country has more people driving cars, and at a much younger age and with less experience.

Compared to Luxemburg, our country is younger, is violent, is full of minorities (who statitically die earlier than caucasions), has half the income (and there is a causal relationship between health and wealth), has millions of immigrants from an almost third world nation, and is at war (yes, those deaths are included in the mortality rates).

The WHO list is not useful in discussing American healthcare.

The question is "will the bill make healthcare better in the US". The answer the administration keeps giving is it will be "more available to people"....not encouraging.

I get it, we are never going to agree...but lets see where we are 10 years from now.

Will the program cost 4 times as much as anticipated (like Tenncare)? I can only hope that's the worst it gets.

Will millions of people have dropped off the private health insurance roles (mirroring Tenncare)?

Will the premiums people pay be orders of magnitude higher than what we currently have been told?

Will medical offices have closed down, due to below cost reimbursement rates?

Will there be a shortage of doctors?

We can only predict, but a look at the performance of Medicare, Tenncare, Hawaii, Romneycare, Canadian system, UK NHS, give us a glimpse, and it isn't pretty.

"Those costs need to be reined in to make health care affordable for all."

Looking at my personal situation, I predict:

1. In a few years, my employer will drop our plan, and pay the penalty (they will save money)

2. Just like BC/BS abandoned Tennessee, there will be very little available to me in private insurance...and I will purchase a 'public option' plan.

3. This plan will cost me more than what I presently pay to supplement my employer's plan...what has happened in Tennessee

4. I will be treated like a dog and a beggar when I go for health services (personal experience in th
5. A bean counter will decide if I am eligible for certain life saving treatments (personal experience with SO and child in the Army)

All I am asking is for one single example of a government run healthcare system that people are happy with. Just one single example...that's all. Since nobody can give me one, it is only logical for me to suspect that our new system will not be successful. I'd love for somebody to prove me wrong. Originally Posted by lacrew_2000

You want one govt run healtcare that people are happy with? Well at the Health Care Town meetings and the Tea Party rallies why were so many people shouting:"Keep my hands off my Medicare?" I am a Pharmacist by profession and have had very few issues with the govt run health plan known as Tricare- so there you go.

LaCrew and any other skeptic of Obama: If Obama is so bad why are we not in a full blown depression. Now matter what you think of Obama he at least will go down in history as not getting us in a Depression. Let's face it- when Obama took office we were at the brink of a Depression- had Obama enacted the wrong policies we would have been in a depression and that is something NO Republican or Independent can deny. Month after month there has been signs of economic recovery- albiet it's slow but still progress has been made- last month we had the biggest job growth in 4 years and that's even if you take out the people who got hired for the census.
I will go on record and sya the only way Obama loses in 2012 is if we are in a Depression and even the most pessimistic econmistic sees the Unites States returning back to normal in late 2011 to early 2012. Palin has no chance at all- Mitt Romney passed a bill in his state that is so freaking similar to Obamacare that it's not even funny. Where were the Tea Party activist when Romney's health care bill passed in his state?

I gave Obama credit for supporting TARP...and as hard a pill as that was to swallow, that is what kept us from spiraling out of control.

But things are still bad...still pushing 10% unemployment.

We just got some bad job loss numbers today (24,000) (not only must new jobs be created, old jobs must be maintained).

And we got news today of a new record month for foreclosures, a 19% jump.

So we're not out of the woods yet. Obviously there's no use arguing about it....if some people think 10% unemployment and record foreclosures are acceptable, I can't convince them otherwise.

J.C. Watts (who incidentally supported Obama) gave a speech in Topeka once, and he described how capital flees taxation, regulation, and unpredictability. He's right...look at how many wealthy people have fled California and New Jersey. And right now, even after the passage of the healthcare bill, there is still alot of unpredictability...nobody knows what it means yet until HHS 'implements' it. This is chasing away capital and preventing hirings. A competing company in my business just did more layoffs last week...so I'm stil a little worried (scared shitless) and skeptical that we are on the right track.

Medicare - I know several doctors. The two major hospital systems in Topeka require their general practicioners to take on 10% of their patients as Medicare patients. They do this as a public service to the community...the reimbursement rates are lower than their cost.

I currently know two people who have reached medicare age, but cannot find a doctor, because of poor reimbursement rates.

The healthcare bill is actually 'deficit neutral' as a result of diverting $500 billion in Medicare collections from medicare to the healthcare funding.

Please don't use Medicare as a success story. It is actually a harbinger of what to expect - private insurance companies will not be able to compete with Obamacare and close shop. Doctors won't get rewarded for going through medical school with Mercedes and boats...and students will become accoutants and lawyers instead.

I gave Obama credit for supporting TARP...and as hard a pill as that was to swallow, that is what kept us from spiraling out of control.

But things are still bad...still pushing 10% unemployment.

We just got some bad job loss numbers today (24,000) (not only must new jobs be created, old jobs must be maintained).

And we got news today of a new record month for foreclosures, a 19% jump.

So we're not out of the woods yet. Obviously there's no use arguing about it....if some people think 10% unemployment and record foreclosures are acceptable, I can't convince them otherwise.

J.C. Watts (who incidentally supported Obama) gave a speech in Topeka once, and he described how capital flees taxation, regulation, and unpredictability. He's right...look at how many wealthy people have fled California and New Jersey. And right now, even after the passage of the healthcare bill, there is still alot of unpredictability...nobody knows what it means yet until HHS 'implements' it. This is chasing away capital and preventing hirings. A competing company in my business just did more layoffs last week...so I'm stil a little worried (scared shitless) and skeptical that we are on the right track. Originally Posted by lacrew_2000

Yes, but remember- this all was in place before Obama went into office- you don't fix a recession over nite- yes the recovery will be slow, but I am confident that the worst is pass us- consumer soending has been up and like I said there has been a lot of good signs and you have to admit- despite what you say about Obama he could have fucked things up and had us in a Depression. What really makes me angry is Right Wing people like Rush saying h Obama fails- I don't care what President is in office- I want that President to do good, because if Obama or any other President fails the country fails. no one wants to talk about National Security how Obama's administration has captured/killed more terrorist operative in 1 & 1/2 years than 7 years under Bush.

Medicare - I know several doctors. The two major hospital systems in Topeka require their general practicioners to take on 10% of their patients as Medicare patients. They do this as a public service to the community...the reimbursement rates are lower than their cost.

I currently know two people who have reached medicare age, but cannot find a doctor, because of poor reimbursement rates.

The healthcare bill is actually 'deficit neutral' as a result of diverting $500 billion in Medicare collections from medicare to the healthcare funding.

Please don't use Medicare as a success story. It is actually a harbinger of what to expect - private insurance companies will not be able to compete with Obamacare and close shop. Doctors won't get rewarded for going through medical school with Mercedes and boats...and students will become accoutants and lawyers instead. Originally Posted by lacrew_2000

That's the irony of it- how stupid does the Tea party look when they call Obama Socialist yet they don't have problems with the govt running their medicare. Oh don't forget that a lot of reimbursements losses are a result of Bush's Medicare Part D prescription plan which cost 100 billion tax paying dollars and you know what??? Medicare Part D was not paid for- it went directly to the defecit- but no outcry frm the Tea partiers.
Also are you aware that the AMA endorsed Obama's plan- yes there will be some doctors who will benefit from it and others who wont, but you made the strangest statement ever and you made a statement that shows whats wrong with Am,erica: you say that Doctors won't get rewarded with going through Medical School with Mercedes amd boats... Are you Freaking Kidding me? If a student is going to medical to be rich and not for the love of the field then the hell with him/her. Those type of Doctors who are in it so they can buy a boat or a Mercedes is the type of doctor that will run unnecessary test and bill the crap out of the insurance companies- they will take money/tickets/bribes from drug companies to pus and prescribe high end brand drugs. You just proved that your values is with the $- you are a typical Republican. Success isn't measured by a Mercedes or a Boat- the late Sam Walton drove a freaking pick up truck! maybe if we weren't spending an estimate(your words) 200 million a day In Iraq- we could have used that money to pay for kids to go to medical school- Do you know how may tutions and loans that could be funded with 230 million dollars a day???

the doctors are why you to have college reform too the cost for docs has to stay stable once again I say stop pouring my little money to other countries and we will have the money to help our self. if a country messes with us put a big hole in every building that somebody in control lives or works in & call a day. And if you don't wont to bomb then a sniper with a 50cal will work also. Nothing says don't mess with me like a 50 cal not 100k troups were they can kill one of ours but a black op sniper team thats say hay we know were you are at all times.

I want my doctor to dream about getting his Mercedes when he's struggling through medical school and getting $180,000 in debt. I don't want smart people becoming accountants, because they can't afford $180,000 in debt, and will have no ability to pay it off when they graduate.

Yep, I just proved my values....I believe people act in their own self interest, and have a strong belief in capitalism. I don't apologize for it...and I'm shocked that anyone would think its an indictment on my character. That system just happened to create the absolute best nation that has ever graced the surface of this planet.

BTW, the Tea Party crowd are exactly the same people who complained about Medicare Part D?!?!?...why would you say otherwise?!?!?

One more thing I just can't let go (kinda like the $billion a day claim ). Obama did not inherit 10% unemployment. In fact, he warned us that unemployment could rise as high as 8%, unless we passed the stimulous bill. Somehow, it passed, and we blew past that milestone. He owns the unemployment numbers. 'Bush's fault' can only work for so long.

One more thing I just can't let go (kinda like the $billion a day claim ). Obama did not inherit 10% unemployment. In fact, he warned us that unemployment could rise as high as 8%, unless we passed the stimulous bill. Somehow, it passed, and we blew past that milestone. He owns the unemployment numbers. 'Bush's fault' can only work for so long. Originally Posted by lacrew_2000

I think the high unemployment was coming regardless of what stimulus package was passed. The problems of the economy were far greater than anyone imagined and the unemployment would have been higher than 10% if no stimulus package had passed. True, unemployment wasn't 10% when he came into office, but it was heading that way regardless of who got elected and in spite of any attempts to head it off. I truely believe that had McCain got elected, his economic policies would have been similar to those of Obama.

btw, what's your issue with accountants?

No issue with accountants...I just picked a profession that smart people might go into, and not be worried about government price fixing....as an alternative to medical school. Could be attorney, engineer, veternarian..just about any profession other than medicine will still be free market based (kinda depressing to think about).

Uncertainty about the healthcare bill has kept companies from hiring.

Uncertainty about the cap and trade bill has kept companies from making new investments in infrastructure.

Uncertainty about the possible sunset of the Bush tax cuts has caused wealthy people to hoard money.

Campaign declarations that we will spend ourselves out of our situation by taxing the rich has caused wealthy people to hoard money.

Raising the debt ceiling to $14 trillion has caused enormous concerns over future inflation.

All of these things are having a very negative affect on job growth.

There are also more stealthy regulatory things being done by the executive branch. Small examples that I have become aware of in my little corner of the world include turbidity monitoring on construction sites, fire sprinklers in residential houses, mandatory residential green building standards, stricter guidelines on pre-1978 lead paint removal...all of which will slow housing development. These regulatory policies are implemented purely through the executive branch, and have a huge impact on the economy.

I don't think McCain would have been identical to Obama on most economic issues...that makes no sense.

Cheaper, you are aware that President Obama has proposed doubling our foreign aid?

Right now, its around $23 Billion....didn't we spend more than that bailing out one company (GM)?

The stimulous bill is something like 30 times as great as our foriegn aid.

A few years ago, $23 million would have been alot of money, but now its chump change (to use an Obama phrase). Eliminating foreign aid will have little effect on our current situation.

So had McCain been elected, we'd have full employment and the Dow would be at 15,000?
Don't believe that tax cuts would have fixed anything. I work with a lot of contractors. Cuts in the income tax rates won't make up for the lack of work to bid on.
Business decisions should not be based on income taxes. Business should make decisions on the ability to make money, not save taxes, although taxes are a part of that mix.
The economy was tanking before the election and McCain, if elected, would have been under intense pressure to do something about job creation or stem the job losses.

"So had McCain been elected, we'd have full employment and the Dow would be at 15,000?"

Umm...no...I don't think I said that. But I'd venture a guess that we wouldn't be at 10% unemployment.

I work with the people who hire those contractors...and they are on pins and needles just waiting to see what happens...and its the 'waiting' that is the problem.