Loss of Manners or Equal Rights?

While not a voyeur per se, I do have a bad habit of watching people at clubs, restauramts and stores. I dropped by the dry cleaners on the way home last night to pick up some items and watched two men casually walk into the store without holding the door open for a lady that was struggling to leave with a huge arm full of clean clothes. I couldn't tell from the nonchalant way they casually strolled in whether their parents had done a poor job of raising them to be gentlemen or if they were too wrapped up in that "can't miss" phone call taking place to bother with the world around them. You could tell she was surprised, perhaps disappointed. I opened the door for her and got in line. I was really embarassed that two men in the 20's (perhaps early 30's) couldn't be bothered to be gentlemen.

Is this a thing of the past? Has chivalry become a lost art? Have women asserted themselves and expressed their desire to be treated as equals so much that men have adotped a "be careful what you ask for" attitude?

I rasie the questions in this forum because many of the comments I see regarding how men act during sessions with Providers is seemingly at odds with the general conduct of the two slobs I encountered at the dry cleaners. Does a man have to be anticipating getting some tail to compel him to act like a gentlemen? Is the only time a woman can expect doors to be opened for her or simple courtesies provided only when the man expects to get between her legs or down her blouse?

Does a man have to be anticipating getting some tail to compel him to act like a gentlemen? Is the only time a woman can expect doors to be opened for her or simple courtesies provided only when the man expects to get between her legs or down her blouse? Originally Posted by txcwby6

No.

Torito

I always hold the door open for women and men. I always get the oddest look from people when I go to QT and will spend 5 minutes holding the door open for everyone coming in and out. Many are pleasantly suprised by this action that I will stand there and motion for everyone else to come in and out while I wait with the door open.

I get the oddest facial expressions from people when I am coming home from Dallas Executive Airport and stop at the QT on 67 south of I-20. I am normally the only white male in their 40's who is at this QT and I will hold the door open for everyone coming in and out. This is a very busy location and the older black men & women think it's the nicest thing someone can do and say thank you in a genuine voice and at times the men have shaken my hand when I finally enter the store, however the younger black men & women give me the oddest looks and when they say thank you they say it in a hesitatingly I'm suprised anyone does this, especially an older white male.

I tell everyone that my mother always told me that manners dictate you should always open a door for a lady, and it's always polite and can make someone's day to hold open a door. It is a lost gesture that shows someone whether male or female, unspoken respect, especially if they are having a bad day. I always make sure to look the people in the eyes and smile. If they hesitate and motion for me to go first, i always smile, nod my head in the direction of the entrance and tell them to go ahead, I've already got the door.

Now the man in me says "I wear sunglasses when doing this so I can look at the girls butt after she smiles when I hold open the door."

Von Spieler,

I too have seen the same reactions when I hold the door for someone. Not just for elderly, ladies, but even for young people. At the same time, I have seen some people, with a downtrodden look on their face suddenly brighten up at receiving a show of respect, especially when I am wearing a business suit, and they may be dressed in their dirty work clothes at the end of a long day. (And some days I get pretty tired of holding that dang door at the QT. Those guys have a booming business.)

My dad was in his late 40s when I was born. As a young lad, I once heard him speaking to a young black guy, probably 25 years younger than him, and he answered the guy's questions with a Yes Sir, and a No Sir. I, being the little ass that I am, asked him after we parted ways why he treated this young guy with such respect. His reply was that you treat everyone with respect. Of course, my dad had already had the conversation about the "N" word, the only time he ever spoke it in front of me was to tell me to never use that word, so the race issue never entered my mind.

Perhaps if we all, especially our politicians, learned a little respect for each other, we could actually solve the world's problems.

It is in the upbringing and I think a lot of it has been neglected in recent generations. Many of the providers on here claim to appreciate the older clients for just that reason. God knows, we need something in our favor.

Von Spieler,

I too have seen the same reactions when I hold the door for someone. Not just for elderly, ladies, but even for young people. At the same time, I have seen some people, with a downtrodden look on their face suddenly brighten up at receiving a show of respect, especially when I am wearing a business suit, and they may be dressed in their dirty work clothes at the end of a long day. (And some days I get pretty tired of holding that dang door at the QT. Those guys have a booming business.)

My dad was in his late 40s when I was born. As a young lad, I once heard him speaking to a young black guy, probably 25 years younger than him, and he answered the guy's questions with a Yes Sir, and a No Sir. I, being the little ass that I am, asked him after we parted ways why he treated this young guy with such respect. His reply was that you treat everyone with respect. Of course, my dad had already had the conversation about the "N" word, the only time he ever spoke it in front of me was to tell me to never use that word, so the race issue never entered my mind.

Perhaps if we all, especially our politicians, learned a little respect for each other, we could actually solve the world's problems. Originally Posted by tigercat

I'm amazed that so many women find the gesture uncommon. I had one young lady actually stop in her tracks, perhaps thinking "OK.. what's going on here?" before walking thru the door and thanking me.

I've dated some very strong-willed woman over the years. Some were very much into the femininist movement (dating myself now!) and others were independent-minded. Only one was concerned that my gestures (opening doors for her, letting her go thru first, standing up when she left the table) were expressed only on women. We had quite a debate (we both did that in high school and college...many people thought we were arguing) before she relented and accepted that it was something I would do for all women (another debate) and not just her (no. 3).

I consider myself to be a very forward thinking & fiercely independent woman and always have and always will respect those persons I meet with the lost art of "manners" ... It seems that people raised to be "gentlemanly or ladylike" are a dying breed. Personally...I feel there is no substitute for class just like "hot" will never be a substitute for Beautiful. Gentlemen... a true lady will admire and respect a man who is dignified and polite. Who cares what a bitch thinks anyways. Imho.

I've had similar issues. Only one (ex)gf took me to task about opening doors and generally letting a lady go first. I was very much raised to treat a lady like a lady. I just gently apologized, told her it was (and is) ingrained behaviour that was very difficult to correct, and she got to liking it.

Nowadays a lot of people dont recognize courtesy. It takes practice and forethought, and if you do it right, people don't think about it. They just think later, oh that was such a nice guy.

Chivalry ain't dead, but it's limping heavily. Even most polite guys don't think about all the rules. Guys walk on the outside of the street, guys hold the door for ladies, unless the door opens outwards, then it's okay to go first and hold it, guys always go first on revolving doors (to get them started-but I've backed off that one to allow whatever the lady seems inclined to do), etc. So few people even think about that stuff, let alone recognize it.

I was "encouraged" to read Amy Vanderbilt's Book of Etiquette by my maternal grandmother before I was 10, and was expected to adhere to every rule therein. I do my best even today, although I know I slip on some of the more obscure things. Personally, I believe it should be taught in 4th or 5th grade, but the chances of that are nil.

What I find interesting about seeing this thread in the Dallas section is the notion that manners are poor here in North Texas. Although they may have slipped some locally, anyone who spends significant time on either coast will probably find the level of gentility here in DFW is far superior to that found in SoCal or the Northeast! So I guess there is some solace to be found in the notion that we are among the last bastions of civility in a much ruder world.

I'm going +1 on this. So true. I have had the same experience at a convenience store.

Chivalry is not dead, but definitely on the endangered list.

Heck, if I'm walking with a gal to a restaurant door, then I'm likely having her walk ahead of me, and most of the time she's already grabbed the door handle by the time I can reach for it myself.

Oh well, I keep doing it, whether it gets appreciated, or not.

Does a man have to be anticipating getting some tail to compel him to act like a gentlemen? Is the only time a woman can expect doors to be opened for her or simple courtesies provided only when the man expects to get between her legs or down her blouse?

No.

Torito Originally Posted by Torito

agreed!!!

i often hold the door open for adults and children or either sex, whether i am entering or leaving a place. additionally, i generally let people out of a place before i enter.
it's just what i do.

now, if it would get me some extra delites, i would definitely consider laying a red carpet at the door.

It is a lost art, many things have also become "lost" such as church every Sunday, Sunday School, dinner with the family at 7pm sharp, regular prayers, respect for the elderly, police, men and women in uniform, opening doors for ladies, shaking hands, keeping your word, the list is (sadly) a long one.

Why is it the fem nazis out there berate you when you do open a door? The only pleasure I get is that the other people around notice what a bitch they are.

Why is it the fem nazis out there berate you when you do open a door? The only pleasure I get is that the other people around notice what a bitch they are. Originally Posted by pyramider

At least those people make it vocal. What I despise worse are those people you hold the door for that don't even acknowledge your presence. I always give them a loud "YOU'RE WELCOME" as they walk off then watch their responses. Its 50/50 clueless/bitch.

I'm in my early (creeping slowly up on mid) 30's and I do random acts of kindness for strangers all the time, its simply how I was raised. I find it appalling how little respect people in general give to each other and even more disturbed at how clueless people have become. Like a massive herd of cattle content to sit around and chew their own cud as the other cattle are led to the butcher.

Chivalry and politeness are one thing, apathy is another thing entirely.

EDIT:
Upon further reflection. I just realized I judge women I take on on dates based upon their interpretation/acceptance/expectance of me doing chivalrous things. For example, when we go out I always make it a point to open the door for her, help her into my truck, and close the door for her. With that little notion in mind of the kind of guy I am....when we get where we are going does she let me get to the door first and open it? If she gets there first, does she step aside and let me open it? If she opens it and I complain (which I do), how does she respond? Does she do it again?

Originally Posted By Vitruvian - What I despise worse are those people you hold the door for that don't even acknowledge your presence. I always give them a loud "YOU'RE WELCOME" as they walk off then watch their responses. Its 50/50 clueless/bitch.

There was a time when I used to get a little irked when no one aknowledged but just like the commercials where things are paid forward by those who see your actions, many do see me open the door and especially when I hold it open for many people at for a long period of time. At least you know that if some you open the door for don't appreciate the gesture, others see that there are those of us who do these gestures and maybe it will stick with them.