America the Free

Caution: Philosophical post here triggered by my good Nazi friend LL.

I wonder what the fuck is up with this country? Seriously, when did we kick the statue of liberty out of bed and demonize immigrants? I love people, especially hard working people who want to come here and make this country stronger. Our economy in Texas would fall apart without the 'undocumented' hard workers that we have here. My fat neighbor might have to mow his own lawn.

Here's the post that set me off, but it is not unique so I'm not picking on just my Nazi friend LL:

When you swim a river or walk through a cut in a border fence, you are not "undocumented", you're fucking trespassing and breaking our laws! Go get in line and wait like my relatives did! Originally Posted by LazurusLong

When MY relatives came here from Ireland, they didn't have to apply. They just showed up with a will to contribute. The line they were in was not an application line, it was a registration line. After registering, they were provided with food, shelter, clothing, and medical care. Then they were turned loose to make a living and pay taxes, and that's what they did. The same was probably true for your ancestors, LL.

Today, we have a lot of dumb-asses who think it's better to keep new arrivals underground so they *can't* pay taxes and *can't* contribute to medicare, etc.. That's retarded. They *want* to contribute but WE won't let them. WE are the dumb-asses.

LL, why don't you go to Washington and tell them to take down that damn Statue of Liberty in New York before the country gets sued for false advertising?

End of rant...

L4L

L4L,

Funny how progressives only want to hang onto old things when it suits them and not the Constitution as it was written.

The saying on the Statue of Liberty about giving us your hungry and weak and poor can't be found anywhere in the Constitution because the founders expected you to carry your own weight and make a go out of it.

MY personal stance is that we need to privatize the entire immigration and citizenship process and get rid of the government hacks who make people wait years and years to get a VISA>

We also need to figure out a way to make sure than when people do come to visit, when the VISA is expired they leave because that is one of the largest pools of illegals here.

I'm against the flood of people through our southern border because they are not coming here to become Citizens, they are here only to work and as a result hey have no desire to "become" American and in every part of every city they congregate, they turn it into a 3rd world conditions of a ghetto like what they left.

That's complete bullshit. My place in Dallas is across Central from some Hispanic areas of East Dallas. Those areas are not ghetto-like in any way. There are affordable homes for families; good affordable restaurants; small family owned shops and bakeries; etc. I don't eat Mexican food that often for dinner, but I often drive to the other side of the freeway for lunch to many small, family run restaurants where I am quite welcome and safe, even if I need to work a bit on my rudimentary Spanish to be understood by the staff. And frankly, and many of the restaurants, someone there will speak English far better than my pidgen Spanish. I'd hardly call that third world or ghetto-like. It was what American was like before corporations and chains took over (other than the language barrier).

well said tth and and lust...in some way i feel sorry for lazarus and his narrow world view. i don't like him...but i don't have to (hell i even got a 10 day ban for mentioning his prior handle on aspd...won't do that again) sad so many people blame immigrants for our problems and not the greedy corporations and lobbyists who would sell their mothers in a second to make another fucking dollar. that and the citizens united decision are fucking up our country. not some hard-working people that seem to be an easy target for simple-minded people.

JPdM

I don't understand it either, but it's not new and it will probably never change. Before the Hispanics, it was the Irish, the Italians, the Germans, the Catholics, the Jews, etc etc etc. My experience with the "illegals" has been the same as TTH: they work hard, they keep their neighborhoods clean, they start businesses, etc. They come to the US to work and for a better opportunity for their families....same as most of our parents, grand-parents, great-grand parents or whatever the case may be.

It's a shame that the bigots and the racists control the debate with their unending talking point that the only thing that matters is that they are here illegally. And, it's also a shame that we can't move past that by allowing all these folks a legal path to citizenship.

You know, this issue...for me...epitomizes why I could never be a Republican. The demonization of an entire class of people who come to the USA to pursue their dreams: a job, a better way of life for their family, an education for their children. Shameful.

Laz sez:
#1- "MY personal stance is that we need to privatize the entire immigration and citizenship process and get rid of the government hacks who make people wait years and years to get a VISA."
Privatize my Ass- So somebody can pay TOO much for process...just like the mountain of "credit card" debit from the Bush Wars Contractors
...brilliant...Part of the problem is not having enough people to deal with the onslaught of legal immigrants...smaller gov't and head up ass-ness in action...


#2- "We also need to figure out a way to make sure than when people do come to visit, when the VISA is expired they leave because that is one of the largest pools of illegals here."
I am totally with you on this point. I just don't think we have had the will to pursue this. Reagan buggered that with his actions years ago. I also think that the Gov't or Corporates would fuck it up just like the "War on Drugs"...Pot smokers in Jail...really...mostly due to stage one thinking and the inability to have a nuanced view on any topic. ALL DRUGS ARE BAD! That keeps it simple for the dummyheads and hooples.

#3- "I'm against the flood of people through our southern border because they are not coming here to become Citizens, they are here only to work and as a result hey have no desire to "become" American and in every part of every city they congregate, they turn it into a 3rd world conditions of a ghetto like what they left."

I am with some the folks above, except that I will say that this is the kind of rhetoricthat has been applied to every race and ethnicity. I'd like to mention that asshole from Germany that caused the deaths of millions with that kind of language, but I am pretty sure that Laz does not possess that kind of panache.I hope...This is also looking at the topis as clearly in "black and white"( pardun the pun)...every immigrant that comes here doesn't cause "there goes the neighborhood" consequences...I am White "Amurican" native Texan neighbors that do just fine at fucking up Mr. Birddawgs neighborhood, thank you very much...I love my Hispanic neighbors and my katrina refugee neighbors that are setting an example of how to move into a neighborhood and do some good.

As long as the people causing the real problems can keep us looking at illegals, taxes, regulations, etc as the cause of all our woes they can run rampant looting this country.

It's a shame that the bigots and the racists control the debate with their unending talking point that the only thing that matters is that they are here illegally. And, it's also a shame that we can't move past that by allowing all these folks a legal path to citizenship.

You know, this issue...for me...epitomizes why I could never be a Republican. The demonization of an entire class of people who come to the USA to pursue their dreams: a job, a better way of life for their family, an education for their children. Shameful. Originally Posted by timpage

Bigots and racists because they use the existing laws as an argument? Laws are in place for a reason. Many laws are archaic and should be changed to reflect the times but you still have to respect the laws until they are reformed.

There are legal paths for immigration. I know the path is super slow and in need of change but it does exist. No one knows the hard work put forth by our southern neighbors any better than my first hand experience in the construction industry. I have had many hard working individuals that were here illegally but continued the path to gain legal status and have gone on to open a business of their own. Outstanding!
Then there have been those that used fictitious social security numbers, falsified information so no taxes would be taken from their pay, and then left the country to return home until they needed money again. The cycle would then continue.

Where do you draw the line? I commend anyone who sets out to improve their quality of life and persevered. But you can't skirt the law to get what you want as an individual. Why? Because it is illegal?

I am still looking for an answer to a question I have on the basic difference between the beliefs of a Democrat and a Republican. I can't be a Democrat because I don't agree with everything that comes from that side. I can't be a Republican because I don't agree with everything that comes from that side. Am I missing something or am I just a misfit?

That's complete bullshit. My place in Dallas is across Central from some Hispanic areas of East Dallas. Originally Posted by TexTushHog

Bullshit?

You have a "place" in Dallas? I'm guessing you don't live here all the time like I do or like most everyone else?

You've also bragged in other forums about your income so I'm pretty sure you're not around any of the true ghetto areas like south of I-30.

Let's try this. There are what I'll call 3 main types of illegals who enter this country.

1. The gangs/drugs and bad guys. NO, I am not including the other 2 below in here. I'm talking the MS-13 types who are here only to make profits from the drug import business. Drugs and violence.

Do you honestly want to try and convince people that the MS-13 gangs live in homes and areas like you describe where you'd feel safe going to get dinner with family and friends? Talk to the local cops in your neighborhood and ask them in a casual way whether there are areas you should avoid and don't be shocked when they tell you about the areas.

2. 2nd group are the hard working folks who WANT to become citizens and have escaped Central and South America countries where they have no future. They are trying to acclimate to this country and trying to get through the citizenship process but like every other big government entity, they are taking 3 steps back for every step forward. They are trying to play by the rules but the rules suck and as I posted above, the system is broken and needs fixed for them.

3. The 3rd group are those who have no intention of ever becoming citizens like my relatives. They are here simply to make enough cash to send home and will never put down roots in any neighborhood or city but instead will live and sleep on a dirt floor if needed and will not give a shit about the condition of the house or block and will trash it because that's al they know and have zero desire to ever improve or change their condition.

Bigots and racists because they use the existing laws as an argument? Laws are in place for a reason. Many laws are archaic and should be changed to reflect the times but you still have to respect the laws until they are reformed.

There are legal paths for immigration. I know the path is super slow and in need of change but it does exist. No one knows the hard work put forth by our southern neighbors any better than my first hand experience in the construction industry. I have had many hard working individuals that were here illegally but continued the path to gain legal status and have gone on to open a business of their own. Outstanding!
Then there have been those that used fictitious social security numbers, falsified information so no taxes would be taken from their pay, and then left the country to return home until they needed money again. The cycle would then continue.

Where do you draw the line? I commend anyone who sets out to improve their quality of life and persevered. But you can't skirt the law to get what you want as an individual. Why? Because it is illegal?

I am still looking for an answer to a question I have on the basic difference between the beliefs of a Democrat and a Republican. I can't be a Democrat because I don't agree with everything that comes from that side. I can't be a Republican because I don't agree with everything that comes from that side. Am I missing something or am I just a misfit? Originally Posted by cheatercheater

Hmmm...interesting. Sounds like you knowingly hired illegal workers in your construction industry business? Why you.....you CRIMINAL!!!!!

The path to legal immigration is virtually non-existent and you know it. The quota's are tiny, the wait is long and it's expensive. And there is one reason it will stay that way: the Republicans will throw up roadblocks at any reform attempt, calling it amnesty. It's a winning issue for them, they can use it to garner support from the loyal hateful base. Nothing pulls Republicans together better than some imaginary scarey boogieman like an illegal alien...who threatens all righteous thinking Americans' way of life. Read above....we're being invaded by hordes of mexican gang members. They are coming across the river in landing craft and we are powerless to stop the murdering, raping, brown hordes!!! The only thing scarier to the haters than illegal immigrants is a black President with more brains than them....It's pathetic.

Riddle me this: why is there so little complaining about the US companies that hire and pay the illegals? Where is the outrage over the fact that these workers would not be here but for the fact that there are jobs and paychecks waiting for them when they show up? Oh, wait....those are Americans and American companies who are facilitating the violation of our immigration laws....and that's OK because it's capitalism and free market. After all, the undocumented workers provide a cheap, plentiful labor pool and that is good for business and maximizing profits. So...it's OK. I'm sitting here in my office right now looking out at a construction site with dozens of hispanic workers doing their jobs. I guarantee you that if ICE showed up right now and started making meaningful ID checks, 90% of those guys down there would be on there way to jail and being deported. And, I also guarantee you that the GC's and the subs on the job who made the hiring decisions know that 90% of those workers are undocumented. And so it goes.

If the Republicans really wanted to fix the problem, they would propose criminal penalties for businesses hiring undocumented workers and would fund mechanisms for enforcement and criminal prosecution. If US businesses were being charged and fined criminally for such violations, they'd stop hiring undocumented workers. And the workers would stop coming if there were no jobs. Not gonna happen.

Finally, I just won't argue with you that there is frequently an underlying current of racism and bigotry in the intolerance exhibited by the loudest anti-immigrant squawkers....it's self-evident and if you don't recognize it, I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise. You read the post about the dirty mexicans sleeping on dirty floors. I'm not saying you subscribe to it....but many of the loudest voices on this issue do. Cheers.

You know for a country built on immigration, you would think by now we would know how to "fix" this problem.

As for America the Free? Free for who? Nothing is Free in this world especially Freedom, ask any soldier stationed over seas. America? When did that word only belong to the "Americans" born in the US? Any person born on the NORTH or SOUTH American continent can count themselves American.

As the daughter of a hardworking immigrant woman I resent the very notion "we" are what's wrong with this country. Everytime someone trys to tell me to "Go Home!" I love educating them and have genealogy that goes back to 1800's that shows my mother's family here in TX & Chihauhau to the days when Tejas was still Mexico. I am home this is the land of my people.

History can teach us so many things if we took the time remember all the lessons. Every "founding" father of Texas came here from somewhere else, became Mexican Nationals & Catholic to boot! and then revolted. Is that the American Dream?

Mexicans have often been the scapegoats of the American government each time they needed a "bad guy" to blame. Last Depression? Mexicans got the short end of the stick then too. Taking all the "American" jobs, introducing their evil ways, Marijuana, and corrupting good ol' American citizens.

When will we ever learn?

Hmmm...interesting. Sounds like you knowingly hired illegal workers in your construction industry business? Why you.....you CRIMINAL!!!!!
The path to legal immigration is virtually non-existent and you know it. The quota's are tiny, the wait is long and it's expensive. And there is one reason it will stay that way: the Republicans will throw up roadblocks at any reform attempt, calling it amnesty. It's a winning issue for them, they can use it to garner support from the loyal hateful base. Nothing pulls Republicans together better than some imaginary scarey boogieman like an illegal alien...who threatens all righteous
thinking Americans' way of life. Read above....we're being invaded by hordes of mexican gang members. They are coming across the river in landing craft and we are powerless to stop the murdering, raping, brown hordes!!! The only thing scarier to the haters than illegal immigrants is a black President with more brains than them....It's pathetic.
Riddle me this: why is there so little complaining about the US companies that hire and pay the illegals? Where is the outrage over the fact that these workers would not be here but for the fact that there are jobs and paychecks waiting for them when
they show up? Oh, wait....those are Americans and American companies who are facilitating the violation of our immigration laws....and that's OK because it's capitalism and free market. After all, the undocumented workers provide a cheap, plentiful labor pool and that is good
for business and maximizing profits. So...it's OK. I'm sitting here in my office right now looking out at a construction site with dozens of hispanic workers doing their jobs. I guarantee you that if ICE showed up right now and started making meaningful ID checks, 90% of those guys down there would be
on there way to jail and being deported. And, I also guarantee you that the GC's and the subs on the job who made the hiring decisions know that 90% of those workers are undocumented. And so it goes.
If the Republicans really wanted to fix the problem, they would propose criminal penalties for businesses hiring undocumented workers and would fund mechanisms for enforcement and criminal prosecution. If US businesses were being charged and fined criminally for such violations, they'd stop hiring undocumented workers. And the workers would stop coming if there were no jobs. Not gonna happen.
Finally, I just won't argue with you that there is frequently an underlying current of racism and bigotry in the intolerance exhibited by the loudest anti-immigrant squawkers....it's self-evident and if you don't recognize it, I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise. You read the post about the dirty mexicans sleeping on dirty floors. I'm not saying you subscribe
to it....but many of the loudest voices on this issue do. Cheers. Originally Posted by timpage

Knowingly hiring undocumented immigrants is illegal and is punishable with fines and incarceration. Before recent changes, you had to accept the ID at it's face value. Meaning there
wasn't a way for non governmental companies to access a database to verify a number belonged to the holder. Now many companies are requiring everyone to reprovide documentation for verification. But, yes, I am a criminal.
I am not sure if you are for or against the issue of undocumented workers. You want Republicans to stop arguing
that it is illegal but you offer them a way to fix it and make tougher penalties for those allowing them to work thus eliminating the basic premise of them coming. I don't care if every member of Congress were Democrats or tea partiers, you aren't going to fix an issue as big as immigration reform. As you said, it ain't going to happen!
I understand rascism and bigotry exists but when you blanket an entire class as such you are doing the same thing as some here are doing against immigrants.
And just to lighten it up, they aren't coming by landing craft as there are so many places you just walk across the river bed without getting your toes wet. I lived within a few miles of the border in El Paso for many years so I know. Who knows, I could be a dirty Mexican. Wave to me from your high rise office!!

Republicans block immigration reform?

Seriously?

When Obama first took office he had BOTH houses of Congress and shoved through any new law he wanted including the bullshit Obamacare.

Let me ask my Democrat friends, why the hell didn't the Dems do SOMETHING about immigration when they held all the cards and all the power?

When since the amnesty that was passed under Reagan has the GOP ever had that much power, BOTH Houses of Congress with filibuster proof majorities?

ONLY the Dems have had that recently.

And they did squat about the issue so please look in the mirror andquit blaming the GOP for not wanting to reward the illegals.

The UNION Civil servants in the immigration offices have created such a boondoggle that I'll say it again, PRIVATIZE the process and demand cost cutting and speed. Get rid of the protected government employees who can't be fired for being incompetent and lazy and see what happens.

I notice not ONE of those who think my sig line is offensive have offered a SINGLE option to fix the problem because THAT is what Dems do, they belly ache about things but won't suggest ways to FIX this issue.

Knowingly hiring undocumented immigrants is illegal and is punishable with fines and incarceration. Originally Posted by cheatercheater

Show me one corporate officer who has gone to jail for hiring undocumented workers. If the government really wanted this practice to stop, they'd send company Presidents to jail. Then companies would stop hiring undocumented workers. But you know, and I know, that won't happen. (Nor do I think it should, for that matter.)

Mexicans have often been the scapegoats of the American government each time they needed a "bad guy" to blame. Last Depression? Mexicans got the short end of the stick then too. Taking all the "American" jobs, introducing their evil ways, Marijuana, and corrupting good ol' American citizens. Originally Posted by Porsche 996

Porsche, when the Reconquista is complete, just be sure to remember which gringos were on your side, por favor!! We're not all pendejos.

Show me one corporate officer who has gone to jail for hiring undocumented workers. Originally Posted by TexTushHog

Ah, but Mr LAWYER, you see it's the lawyers who craft schemes so that the employers are never held responsible.

The companies lawyers have told them to hire only through SUB contractors and the SUB contractors are the ones who are held liable for any hiring violations.

And because those SUB contractors are also crafted by LAWYERS, they are held many times in other countries so just how would you propose we arrest and perp walk them?

Fix the immigration problem's first step is to execute all the lawyers making over 100K a year.