The Truth about Fast and Furious

Watergate? Contempt? Laughable.

Educate yourselves.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.co...furious-truth/

Watergate? Contempt? Laughable.

Educate yourselves.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.co...furious-truth/ Originally Posted by timpage

Little Timmy Boy, it's you who needs the education; quit drinking the Kool-Aid.

watch the wingers in denial here.

they wont bother to read it ... lol


snip

Quite simply, there's a fundamental misconception at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal. Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands. Issa and others charge that the ATF intentionally allowed guns to walk as an operational tactic. But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn.


ooooooopsie.

typical rightwing fiasco ... dig deep enough until you get shit on your hands

Holder's and Obama's opponents have been ranting and raving about a non-existent problem for months now. The Fortune article proves without ANY doubt that today's vote pushed by Darrell Issa and a compliant Republican Congress of absolutely brainless idiots with the single motive of damaging this country's leaders! Their attempts to do so are damaging this country with divisive diversion from the real job that still faces us - JOBS and the Economy!

This article is written like a Cosmopolitan submission with more emphasis on the ATF agents, their personalities and office politics than what was the authorized scope of the project and how it was going to succeed.

The author seems very apologetic for the ATF agents saying they were underfunded and unable to get prosecutors to assist them. Frankly, if that office was incompetent, I don't understand why Holder just turn over the documents fire a couple of agents and walk away.

Reading the article is a waste of time.

The second paragraph reads:

"The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws."

Yet, on 6 April 2012, convicted Russian arms dealer Viktor Bout was sentenced to 25 years behind bars by a U.S. federal judge in New York.

Mr. Bout, 44, was convicted of conspiring to kill American citizens, officers and employees by agreeing to sell weapons to drug enforcement informants who he believed were members of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, a terrorist organization known as FARC [a narco-terrorist organization -- just like those in Mexico].

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/03/nyregion/viktor-bout-guilty-in-arms-trafficking-case.html?ref=viktorbout

Again, the second paragraph in the OP's cite reads:

"The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws."

Below is more evidence that the OP's article is founded on lies:

Brownsville, Texas—Conspiracy to Make False Statements and Straw Purchases
In October 2008, the USAO-SDTex announced that one defendant, who had already pleaded guilty to charges against him, was sentenced to prison for trafficking in firearms. The defendant pleaded guilty to conspiracy to make false statements in firearms transactions. This defendant paid four other persons to make firearms purchases on his behalf (a.k.a., “straw purchases”). While the judge concluded that the defendant was the organizer in this case and engaged in trafficking firearms to Mexico, this lead defendant was prosecuted under two provisions, which together made up the charge against him. They were: (1) 18 U.S.C. § 371, which makes it an offense to engage in a conspiracy to commit any offense or defraud the United States, and (2) 18
U.S.C. § 924(a)(1)(A), which makes it unlawful for a person to “knowingly make any false statement or representation with respect to the information required ... to be kept in the records of a person licensed under this chapter.” Each of these offenses carries a penalty of not more than five years’ imprisonment and/or a fine. In this case, the defendant, who organized these transactions, was sentenced to 46 months in prison to be followed by a three year term of supervised release. The four other co-defendants, who made the purchases on behalf of the lead defendant, were each prosecuted and sentenced under 18 U.S.C. § 924(a)(1)(A) for making false statements on the forms that are required to be filled out in connection with a firearms purchase. The sentences of these four co-defendants range from probation and home confinement to time in federal prison.

Victoria, Texas—Smuggling of Firearms
In December 2008, the USAO-SDTex along with the ATF announced that one individual, as a result of an investigation through Project Gunrunner, pleaded guilty to eight counts of various federal firearms statutes. According to the USAO’s release, the individual had purchased more than 500 firearms over the last several years and smuggled them into Mexico for resale. The ATF’s investigation revealed that the individual would purchase specific firearms for customers in Mexico by placing orders with numerous firearm dealers throughout Texas, and listing himself as the “actual buyer.” Additionally, the individual would file a Texas tax exemption form indicating the firearms were for resale in order to avoid payment of sales taxes on his purchase. This individual would then smuggle the firearms, via a compartment in the motor home he used, to make deliveries to various locations in central Mexico. The firearms statutes implicated in this case of firearms trafficking to Mexico were: (1) 18 U.S.C. § 924(a)(1)(A) and 18 U.S.C. § 924(a)(2), each of which provides a fine and/or not more than 5 or 10 years’ imprisonment, respectively, to those who knowingly make a false statement or representation with respect to information required or in connection with the sale of a firearm from a licensed dealer; (2) 18 U.S.C. § 554, which carries a penalty of not more than 10 years in prison and/or a fine if a person “fraudulently or knowingly exports ... or attempts to export ... from the United States any merchandise, article, or object contrary to any law or regulation of the United States, or receives, conceals, buys, sells, or in any manner facilitates the transportation, concealment, or sale of such merchandise ... prior to [its] exportation knowing [it] to be intended for exportation contrary to any law or regulation of the United States”; (3) 18 U.S.C. § 924(b), which imposes a fine and/or imprisonment for not more than 10 years on any person who “ships, transports, or receives a firearm or ammunition in interstate or foreign commerce” and who either has “intent to commit therewith an offense punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year,” or has “knowledge or reasonable cause to believe that an offense punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year is to be committed therewith”; and (4) 18 U.S.C. § 924(a)(1)(D), which imposes a fine and/or imprisonment of not more than five years for any other willful violation of the provisions (in this case 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(1)(A)-dealing in firearms without a license). All of these provisions carry a maximum fine of $250,000 and a maximum of three years of supervised release following completion of the sentence imposed.

http://web.ncf.ca/fl512/government/gun_trafficking_and_the_southw est_border4.html

so whats your point?

some get busted some dont .. posting those cases doesnt mean squat

how many guns did gunrunner turn loose and how many convictions resulted from those guns?

we need some percentages IB, PERCENTAGES!

so whats your point?

some get busted some dont .. posting those cases doesnt mean squat

how many guns did gunrunner turn loose and how many convictions resulted from those guns?

we need some percentages IB, PERCENTAGES! Originally Posted by CJ7

Again, the second paragraph in the OP's cite reads:

"The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws."

The OP's cite is 100% a lie. How's that for percentages, CBJ7?

Again, the second paragraph in the OP's cite reads:

"The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws."

The OP's cite is 100% a lie. How's that for percentages, CBJ7? Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Without a targeted federal gun trafficking law, prosecutors are forced to rely on other statutes that agents and prosecutors say are difficult to enforce and riddled with loopholes.

Chief among them: a frequently used law against lying on the ATF’s Form 4473 at a gun shop—especially in claiming the buyer is purchasing for himself, rather than someone else. But court decisions have made this “straw buyer” charge difficult to prove and judges often don’t take it seriously. The issue has been highlighted in recent months by both U.S.

Attorneys posted along the border and the Justice Department’s inspector general.
Current laws also keep the ATF in the dark on sales of assault rifles, the cartels’ weapon of choice. Recent efforts to require that border gun stores immediately report multiple sales of these rifles to ATF—which might create investigative leads—have so far gone nowhere. And despite launching Project Gunrunner in 2006 to stop gun smuggling into Mexico with money earmarked by Congress, the ATF has only 224 agents assigned to the special effort, according to a Justice Department report. The ATF says those agents are currently managing 4,600 open investigations, along with monitoring illegal sales at 8,500 licensed gun shops along the Southwest border.

Michael Bouchard, a former ATF assistant director who oversaw the bureau’s field operations until 2007, summed up the problem succinctly. The laws, he says, are “very weak,” the resources “very few.”



seems kinda hobbled to me, not to mention youre splitting hairs between "statutes" and federal gun trafficing law.

Without a targeted federal gun trafficking law, prosecutors are forced to rely on other statutes that agents and prosecutors say are difficult to enforce and riddled with loopholes.

Chief among them: a frequently used law against lying on the ATF’s Form 4473 at a gun shop—especially in claiming the buyer is purchasing for himself, rather than someone else. But court decisions have made this “straw buyer” charge difficult to prove and judges often don’t take it seriously. The issue has been highlighted in recent months by both U.S.

Attorneys posted along the border and the Justice Department’s inspector general.
Current laws also keep the ATF in the dark on sales of assault rifles, the cartels’ weapon of choice. Recent efforts to require that border gun stores immediately report multiple sales of these rifles to ATF—which might create investigative leads—have so far gone nowhere. And despite launching Project Gunrunner in 2006 to stop gun smuggling into Mexico with money earmarked by Congress, the ATF has only 224 agents assigned to the special effort, according to a Justice Department report. The ATF says those agents are currently managing 4,600 open investigations, along with monitoring illegal sales at 8,500 licensed gun shops along the Southwest border.

Michael Bouchard, a former ATF assistant director who oversaw the bureau’s field operations until 2007, summed up the problem succinctly. The laws, he says, are “very weak,” the resources “very few.”



seems kinda hobbled to me, not to mention youre splitting hairs between "statutes" and federal gun trafficing law. Originally Posted by CJ7

No hair splitting to it! The author stated in paragraph two of his article that there were no federal laws against trafficking guns; that is a patent lie, CBJ7.

No hair splitting to it! The author stated in paragraph two of his article that there were no federal laws against trafficking guns; that is a patent lie, CBJ7. Originally Posted by I B Hankering

there isnt, thats why feds use vapid statutes to make cases

there isnt, thats why feds use vapid statutes to make cases Originally Posted by CJ7

Again, since you are such an illiterate reader, CBJ7:

18 U.S.C. § 924(b) imposes a fine and/or imprisonment for not more than 10 years on any person who “ships, transports, or receives a firearm or ammunition in interstate or foreign commerce”

As exemplified and stated above, that statute is used to prosecute individuals who illegally engage in international gun trafficking.

ATF has only 224 agents assigned to the special effort, according to a Justice Department report. The ATF says those agents are currently managing 4,600 open investigations, along with monitoring illegal sales at 8,500 licensed gun shops along the Southwest border.

Michael Bouchard, a former ATF assistant director who oversaw the bureau’s field operations until 2007, summed up the problem succinctly. The laws, he says, are “very weak,” the resources “very few.”


hobbled