Dateline Bejing, China 2030.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTSQo...ature=youtu.be
- LazurusLong
- 10-22-2010, 11:13 PM
- slowmover
- 10-23-2010, 10:10 AM
This is a political ad using U.S. citizens, filmed in Washington D.C. Wanna open the floodgates for everyone to post their favorite political ad? Here we go again.
- Lust4xxxLife
- 10-23-2010, 08:18 PM
I think it is where we're headed,but it is not because of anything to do with the last recession, Obama, or even Bush. The seeds were planted a long time ago and I think the end result is inevitable and unstoppable now. In 20-30 years, America will be 'the new Europe' and China will be 'the new America'.
Why do I think this?
1. America is dumbing down. Our education system is nothing like it once was. Our teachers are underpaid and undertrained. Yes, there are exceptions in some elite communities, but generally, we're failing to educate our kids to compete on a global scale and that is our undoing.
2. We're a nation of naval-gazers and we can't afford that anymore. When America was the planet's 'It Girl', it was ok to be an inward focused nation. That's no longer the case. If America doesn't become more savvy about what goes on in the rest of the world, we're going to become a lot less relevant to the rest of the world. We won't know how to compete.
3. We drink too much of our own kool-aid. What is more important for our kids to learn – that America has been a global powerhouse for 100 years or that China has been a global powerhouse for 1800 of the last 2000 years? China took the eye off the ball for the last couple of hundred years, but I think it's clear to everyone that they're on the rebound. I hate that my kids have to waste an entire course on 'Texas History'. WTF? How does that help America compete? The major events in Texas history can be covered in a couple of classes of American history.
4. Our military is a depreciating asset and the value is eroding fast. It's already only useful in 2nd and 3rd world countries. Our military is useless against adversaries like China and Russia because all we could ever threaten is mutual destruction. We could never 'defeat' either country. We can't even defend our own borders adequately from mexican bandits, for christ's sake. We might as well start selling off pieces of the military to Exxon-Mobile and Chevron because that's who they're working for, for the most part.
5. The new Super Powers will be based on economic and technologic superiority. China is already on a path to achieve economic superiority. The status quo will get them there. America is still the technology powerhouse but China is graduating more PHDs than America is graduating college students in total – and we're cutting education budgets while they increase them – so how long do we think our advantage will last? Not long, if we don't wake up.
Do I think all is lost? No, not yet... but that's the path we're on. We need change, not politics-as-usual. Is the Tea Party the answer? No! They're ignorant dummies who don't understand our position in the world and would spend even less on education and the right programs if they had their way. They are the enemy. The Tea Party is far more of a threat to America in the long term than any mideast terrorist organization.
BTW - I think both of the mainstream parties are also not dealing with the issues I've raised. There are NO lights at the end of the tunnel yet.
Ok, this was a fun post. I feel better already. Time to go pour a glass of wine and watch some mind-numbing TV!
L4L
Why do I think this?
1. America is dumbing down. Our education system is nothing like it once was. Our teachers are underpaid and undertrained. Yes, there are exceptions in some elite communities, but generally, we're failing to educate our kids to compete on a global scale and that is our undoing.
2. We're a nation of naval-gazers and we can't afford that anymore. When America was the planet's 'It Girl', it was ok to be an inward focused nation. That's no longer the case. If America doesn't become more savvy about what goes on in the rest of the world, we're going to become a lot less relevant to the rest of the world. We won't know how to compete.
3. We drink too much of our own kool-aid. What is more important for our kids to learn – that America has been a global powerhouse for 100 years or that China has been a global powerhouse for 1800 of the last 2000 years? China took the eye off the ball for the last couple of hundred years, but I think it's clear to everyone that they're on the rebound. I hate that my kids have to waste an entire course on 'Texas History'. WTF? How does that help America compete? The major events in Texas history can be covered in a couple of classes of American history.
4. Our military is a depreciating asset and the value is eroding fast. It's already only useful in 2nd and 3rd world countries. Our military is useless against adversaries like China and Russia because all we could ever threaten is mutual destruction. We could never 'defeat' either country. We can't even defend our own borders adequately from mexican bandits, for christ's sake. We might as well start selling off pieces of the military to Exxon-Mobile and Chevron because that's who they're working for, for the most part.
5. The new Super Powers will be based on economic and technologic superiority. China is already on a path to achieve economic superiority. The status quo will get them there. America is still the technology powerhouse but China is graduating more PHDs than America is graduating college students in total – and we're cutting education budgets while they increase them – so how long do we think our advantage will last? Not long, if we don't wake up.
Do I think all is lost? No, not yet... but that's the path we're on. We need change, not politics-as-usual. Is the Tea Party the answer? No! They're ignorant dummies who don't understand our position in the world and would spend even less on education and the right programs if they had their way. They are the enemy. The Tea Party is far more of a threat to America in the long term than any mideast terrorist organization.
BTW - I think both of the mainstream parties are also not dealing with the issues I've raised. There are NO lights at the end of the tunnel yet.
Ok, this was a fun post. I feel better already. Time to go pour a glass of wine and watch some mind-numbing TV!
L4L
- LazurusLong
- 10-23-2010, 11:50 PM
L4L.
Agree with you on almost all points and appreciate the very valid input.
I'll respond to the minor things we disagree on once the effects of the beer has worn off and I can type properly again.
Agree with you on almost all points and appreciate the very valid input.
I'll respond to the minor things we disagree on once the effects of the beer has worn off and I can type properly again.
- Lust4xxxLife
- 10-24-2010, 01:18 AM
- CenterLock
- 10-24-2010, 01:51 PM
I'm not L4L, but I do agree with his points. This is not a builder nation anymore - this is the "want" nation. When work was supplanted by welfare and failure was replaced by political correctness in some form of "it wasn't my fault", the direction of the country was clear.
This change hasn't happened overnight, nor has it been the result of one drastic change. It has been years (yes - LONG before Obama and Bush) of compromise, years of believing we were the greatest "just because" without recognizing in any real sense that we were the greatest because Americans worked to make it that way, and years of "but I want".
I agree that teachers are underpaid - but I agree more that they are under-trained and more importantly over managed. For what a teacher is required - let alone allowed - to teach in the classroom, their pay is more or less adequate. (Yet I said I agree they are underpaid? If given the responsibility AND the ability/freedom to teach what is required, they should be given pay commensurate with that responsibility. Until then, pay them for what they are actually allowed to produce.) I was elated when the "Leave no child behind" initiative was originally discussed. Not because I thought it would be implemented differently than it has been, but because I felt someone - somewhere - GOT IT. Seeing it implemented as "lower standards so no child will fail" kept me in reality. Then I was in for a shock when I spoke to some teachers that told me they were "not allowed to fail a child because that might impact them psychologically in the future". Not allowed. Do not mark a failure as a failure because it might hurt them later in life. When? When they are filing their welfare paperwork?
As for our military (L4L's point #4): I see this as a moot point. Our military is still one of the (if not, in some respects, THE) best in the world. The fact that we could not "defeat" a country such as Russia or China matters less in the grand scheme of things than anything else mentioned. And the reason stated is why - we have mutual destruction as a deterrent on the military side, and an economic whirlwind on the other. We choose instead to fight each other in other countries under the guise of (or in some cases just because that's where the chips fell) fighting for the "little guy". When I was in Germany, I was made well aware that the older generation remembered what our fathers did; while the younger generation saw us as nothing more than bullies and "global police". How's that for perspective? They were both right.
I'm disgusted with the direction we are going. I love this country - don't get me wrong. Is it too late? No. But there is NO way Americans will stand by and let it be fixed properly. Why? Because, as I said in the beginning, we are a nation of "wants". We want our cake and eat it too. You can't have it both ways. You want to _fix_ things? Start with an across the board cut in EVERYTHING except taxes. Make the government run the way we are expected to run our businesses and households. When you get everything balanced in v. out - throw out laws / bills / etc that make failure taboo. 1000 failures? or 1000 ways NOT to make a light bulb? That mentality has to be made clear. Success is for those who succeed, not for those who "can't fail". How far do you think this mentality would go in public view? About as far as the question: Who is John Galt?
But there IS a light at the end of the tunnel - it just so happens to be a train.
[Thanks for the dip in something more thought provoking than rates]
This change hasn't happened overnight, nor has it been the result of one drastic change. It has been years (yes - LONG before Obama and Bush) of compromise, years of believing we were the greatest "just because" without recognizing in any real sense that we were the greatest because Americans worked to make it that way, and years of "but I want".
I agree that teachers are underpaid - but I agree more that they are under-trained and more importantly over managed. For what a teacher is required - let alone allowed - to teach in the classroom, their pay is more or less adequate. (Yet I said I agree they are underpaid? If given the responsibility AND the ability/freedom to teach what is required, they should be given pay commensurate with that responsibility. Until then, pay them for what they are actually allowed to produce.) I was elated when the "Leave no child behind" initiative was originally discussed. Not because I thought it would be implemented differently than it has been, but because I felt someone - somewhere - GOT IT. Seeing it implemented as "lower standards so no child will fail" kept me in reality. Then I was in for a shock when I spoke to some teachers that told me they were "not allowed to fail a child because that might impact them psychologically in the future". Not allowed. Do not mark a failure as a failure because it might hurt them later in life. When? When they are filing their welfare paperwork?
As for our military (L4L's point #4): I see this as a moot point. Our military is still one of the (if not, in some respects, THE) best in the world. The fact that we could not "defeat" a country such as Russia or China matters less in the grand scheme of things than anything else mentioned. And the reason stated is why - we have mutual destruction as a deterrent on the military side, and an economic whirlwind on the other. We choose instead to fight each other in other countries under the guise of (or in some cases just because that's where the chips fell) fighting for the "little guy". When I was in Germany, I was made well aware that the older generation remembered what our fathers did; while the younger generation saw us as nothing more than bullies and "global police". How's that for perspective? They were both right.
I'm disgusted with the direction we are going. I love this country - don't get me wrong. Is it too late? No. But there is NO way Americans will stand by and let it be fixed properly. Why? Because, as I said in the beginning, we are a nation of "wants". We want our cake and eat it too. You can't have it both ways. You want to _fix_ things? Start with an across the board cut in EVERYTHING except taxes. Make the government run the way we are expected to run our businesses and households. When you get everything balanced in v. out - throw out laws / bills / etc that make failure taboo. 1000 failures? or 1000 ways NOT to make a light bulb? That mentality has to be made clear. Success is for those who succeed, not for those who "can't fail". How far do you think this mentality would go in public view? About as far as the question: Who is John Galt?
But there IS a light at the end of the tunnel - it just so happens to be a train.
[Thanks for the dip in something more thought provoking than rates]
- Lust4xxxLife
- 10-24-2010, 04:35 PM
CenterLock - great post. I think we're pretty much in sync.
You reminded me of a point I forgot to make when you mentioned 'builder' nation.
When this nation of ours – which I love and fear for – was on the upswing, we built things for ourselves and others, and we were also our own biggest market. Now we import far more than we build.
Oh, and guess what? China is building things for themselves and for others, and they are becoming their own biggest market as they shift towards becoming much more of a consumer society.
Trade barriers aren't the answer. That will just open the door for inefficient companies to sell shoddy products. No, what's needed is a revitalized American spirit. We need to want to 'buy American' if there is an American option. It's for the good of all of us.
You reminded me of a point I forgot to make when you mentioned 'builder' nation.
When this nation of ours – which I love and fear for – was on the upswing, we built things for ourselves and others, and we were also our own biggest market. Now we import far more than we build.
Oh, and guess what? China is building things for themselves and for others, and they are becoming their own biggest market as they shift towards becoming much more of a consumer society.
Trade barriers aren't the answer. That will just open the door for inefficient companies to sell shoddy products. No, what's needed is a revitalized American spirit. We need to want to 'buy American' if there is an American option. It's for the good of all of us.
- The_Waco_Kid
- 10-24-2010, 09:38 PM
I'll review and post a few comments at a later date but just this about China. the county is a complete and total dump. Dirty, filthy and poor from one end of it to another. I've been there 5 times, in several different areas. Shenzhen is a relatively new city only founded in 1979. Filthy. i saw parents walking along the street and simply stop and pull down their kid's pants and let him pee on the sidewalk. same thing in Zhengzhou some 1,000 miles away. While this country clearly has many issues and i generally agree with most of what's posted China as it is today will not exist in 20 years. in 2025 there will a be new Youtube video about the total collapse of communism in China, brought about by 700 MILLION migrant workers fueling China's growth. Recently China passed Japan as the second largest economy in the world. Japan's reaction? Who fuckin' cares? Why? The average Japanese makes about 36,000 US dollars a year, the average Chinese about 4,300 US dollars a year. That's why. without a massive redistribution of wealth in China there will be the Mother of all Cultural Revolutions. one of the reasons China exports 95% of its good is that 90% of its people couldn't even afford to buy those goods. Remember there's no such thing as a "billionaire" in a communist country yet the Chinese government are allowing an elite few to amass American like wealth. on the backs of the vast majority of its people. China experiences up to 80,000 "mass demonstrations" a year. We call them Riots. Shenzhen has probably more security and surveillance systems (made by the way by American companies in violation of US Law) in order to spy on it's citizens than any other large city in the world including London. Good luck with that. it will only buy some extra time before the communist system totally fails in China. These people will revolt and hang the Chinese leadership in Tienanmen Square. And there won't be a damn thing the Chinese Military can possibly do to stop it. You'd be asking the military to shoot their own families and even if they did there isn't an army large enough to handle it. What would China do? nuke their own country? Nope. Either they re-distribute their wealth to raise the standard of living by an order of magnitude or they fall. That cuts completely against communist doctrine, wealth. not the exact article i read but close enough ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/wo...1&pagewanted=2
in China there are on average some 35,000 FORCED abortions per day. Think about that. that's up to 13 Million per year. all due to the one child policy. The police WILL kick in your door, drag your pregnant wife off to some filthy hack abortion clinic and force an abortion. and for repeated violations they will eventually sterilize women. all while an elite few drive around Beijing in $200,000 Bentleys. and these ultra rich can have as many kids as they want. Why? because they simply pay the "fine" each year, because they can afford it, unlike the vast majority.
This country has serious problems, without doubt. China has much larger problems. They have an new economic model that is in complete conflict with the dogma of Marxist doctrine. they have 700 Million slave laborers. They have an elite ultra rich. If you think there is a growing imbalance of "have" and "have nots" in the US, try China on for size. Remember when Japan bought up about half of America or so it seemed in the 80's? When their economy went south we bought it all back for pennies on the dollar. All that US debt China holds won't help them one bit if they continue to "enslave" the vast majority of their population. If you opened China's for borders for one day 3/4 of the country would probably leave en mass. Then who would make all those cheap goods? Certainly not the ultra wealthy.
The Chinese government will not allow travel visas to single females to one country. The United States of America. Why? they'd never come back.
America is the modern day Roman Empire. corrupted by the very politicians who are supposed to uphold the constitution but take lobbist money right and left instead of doing what is right for America.
America has problems. China has way more problems than we do.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/wo...1&pagewanted=2
in China there are on average some 35,000 FORCED abortions per day. Think about that. that's up to 13 Million per year. all due to the one child policy. The police WILL kick in your door, drag your pregnant wife off to some filthy hack abortion clinic and force an abortion. and for repeated violations they will eventually sterilize women. all while an elite few drive around Beijing in $200,000 Bentleys. and these ultra rich can have as many kids as they want. Why? because they simply pay the "fine" each year, because they can afford it, unlike the vast majority.
This country has serious problems, without doubt. China has much larger problems. They have an new economic model that is in complete conflict with the dogma of Marxist doctrine. they have 700 Million slave laborers. They have an elite ultra rich. If you think there is a growing imbalance of "have" and "have nots" in the US, try China on for size. Remember when Japan bought up about half of America or so it seemed in the 80's? When their economy went south we bought it all back for pennies on the dollar. All that US debt China holds won't help them one bit if they continue to "enslave" the vast majority of their population. If you opened China's for borders for one day 3/4 of the country would probably leave en mass. Then who would make all those cheap goods? Certainly not the ultra wealthy.
The Chinese government will not allow travel visas to single females to one country. The United States of America. Why? they'd never come back.
America is the modern day Roman Empire. corrupted by the very politicians who are supposed to uphold the constitution but take lobbist money right and left instead of doing what is right for America.
America has problems. China has way more problems than we do.
- Lust4xxxLife
- 10-25-2010, 12:06 AM
@Waco Kid - the ignorance of your post is exactly the problem I refer to that is taking down America. Communism is long gone in China. China practically invented capitalism and they're back, baby! You want to believe that China is fucked up and that's why we shouldn't worry. You confuse an average lower standard of living in China with 'fucked up' and that's naive. Their average standard of living is increasing as America's decreases. Here are some specific points for you to consider:
1. Each country has a maximum population that it can sustain without collapsing. Look at our economy right now. We're all pissed because of about 35 million illegal immigrants. What would we do with another 800 million people? Think about it. You don't think we wouldn't implement population control? Hell yes we would!
2. I've spent a lot more time in China than you have. Yes, there are a lot of 'dumps' but there are also a lot of high-end neighborhoods and as our neighborhoods are decaying, China is building new ones. Remember, our economy is migrating to China. That's a fact. China's dumps are being upgraded, ours are being created. The neighborhoods in Detroit are no worse than the neighborhoods in China.
3. China rules with more force than we're comfortable with. They have no choice. They have about 200 million people (and growing) living well in the developed cities and another 800-900 million people living in poverty. If they didn't rule with an iron fist, there would be anarchy. Again, what do you think would happen in this country if 800M poor people arrived tomorrow? Do you think the same kind of freedoms would be possible? Of course not!
4. If we had another 800M people to deal with, how many more 'protests' or 'riots' do you think we'd have to deal with? I'll tell you... LOTS!
We need to educate Americans. We can't afford to have a population of dummies who think that China is still communist and religion is good. China wrote the book on capitalism! The rest of the developed world is moving on and we risk being left behind.
1. Each country has a maximum population that it can sustain without collapsing. Look at our economy right now. We're all pissed because of about 35 million illegal immigrants. What would we do with another 800 million people? Think about it. You don't think we wouldn't implement population control? Hell yes we would!
2. I've spent a lot more time in China than you have. Yes, there are a lot of 'dumps' but there are also a lot of high-end neighborhoods and as our neighborhoods are decaying, China is building new ones. Remember, our economy is migrating to China. That's a fact. China's dumps are being upgraded, ours are being created. The neighborhoods in Detroit are no worse than the neighborhoods in China.
3. China rules with more force than we're comfortable with. They have no choice. They have about 200 million people (and growing) living well in the developed cities and another 800-900 million people living in poverty. If they didn't rule with an iron fist, there would be anarchy. Again, what do you think would happen in this country if 800M poor people arrived tomorrow? Do you think the same kind of freedoms would be possible? Of course not!
4. If we had another 800M people to deal with, how many more 'protests' or 'riots' do you think we'd have to deal with? I'll tell you... LOTS!
We need to educate Americans. We can't afford to have a population of dummies who think that China is still communist and religion is good. China wrote the book on capitalism! The rest of the developed world is moving on and we risk being left behind.
- Boltfan
- 10-25-2010, 11:44 AM
Ignorance?
Why do people like you immediately drop the ignorant card when you don't agree with someone's opinion. Just because he does not agree with you does not make him ignornant.
Why do people like you immediately drop the ignorant card when you don't agree with someone's opinion. Just because he does not agree with you does not make him ignornant.
- Lust4xxxLife
- 10-25-2010, 12:20 PM
Ignorance?I humbly apologize to The_Waco_Kid and to anyone else who is offended by my use of the word ignorant. It was not intended as a personal attack but reading it now I can see that it could easily be taken in the wrong light. I should have made a more generic statement.
Why do people like you immediately drop the ignorant card when you don't agree with someone's opinion. Just because he does not agree with you does not make him ignornant. Originally Posted by Boltfan
We, as a nation, are generally ignorant when it comes to China. Our educational material is outdated, the media likes to play up the things that attract eyeballs, and our government has multiple agendas.
As I tried to express in the previous post, take a minute and think about what this country would be like with another 800 million poor citizens inside our borders. Think about the impact on health care, urban communities, population control, and government controls. Don't assess China using our context... it doesn't work.
- Boltfan
- 10-25-2010, 12:33 PM
Thanks L4L,
This has been an interesting conversation. I think WK's point is that because of the 800 million more poor China will eventually fall. I certainly think the US would not be able to handle 800 million more people here living in shacks made of cardboard. I do also agree that many people in the US are ignorant of what 3rd world poor really looks like. Living in both San Diego and El Paso I spent a good deal of time in Mexico. The poverty in the US versus poverty in Mexico/China, etc. is far different.
This has been an interesting conversation. I think WK's point is that because of the 800 million more poor China will eventually fall. I certainly think the US would not be able to handle 800 million more people here living in shacks made of cardboard. I do also agree that many people in the US are ignorant of what 3rd world poor really looks like. Living in both San Diego and El Paso I spent a good deal of time in Mexico. The poverty in the US versus poverty in Mexico/China, etc. is far different.
- Guest032213-02
- 10-25-2010, 12:45 PM
Wow, wonderful political argument! No jumping all over each other! I saw a post like this try to get started on another board, and it became nothing but name calling You all are awesome!
- The_Waco_Kid
- 10-25-2010, 07:41 PM
1. You don't think we wouldn't implement population control? Hell yes we would! Originally Posted by Lust4xxxLifeNo we wouldn't FREE countries don't impose their will on their citizens. We have a Constitution. for now at least or as long as the Second Amendment is alive and well. The founding fathers knew full well what could happen to a defenseless population. All threats foreign and domestic ...
unfortunately that means we have to tolerate Octomom but that's freedom for ya!
True enough but we only have one Detroit. China has dozens. Ok, throw in New York City too.
2. The neighborhoods in Detroit are no worse than the neighborhoods in China. Originally Posted by Lust4xxxLife
3. China rules with more force than we're comfortable with. Originally Posted by Lust4xxxLifeso did Adolf Hitler, seems to me that didn't turn out too well for Germany.
4. If we had another 800M people to deal with, how many more 'protests' or 'riots' do you think we'd have to deal with? I'll tell you... LOTS! Originally Posted by Lust4xxxLifeExactly how would we suddenly find 800 million more people? wave a magic wand? Just like China the population grew over time.
the real point is that any population large or small that is allowed to be free and prosper has no reason to riot. Unless you are talking about a Walmart midnight sale!
China is still communist and religion is good. Originally Posted by Lust4xxxLifeso China is a .. Democracy? Not.
China wrote the book on capitalism! Originally Posted by Lust4xxxLifeWe wrote the book on capitalism we just need to read it again.
and stop playing with both hands tied behind our backs.
The rest of the developed world is moving on and we risk being left behind. Originally Posted by Lust4xxxLifeThat is a fact!
by the way you realize that this entire discussion would be deemed subversive in China? oh i forget China isn't a communist country. wonder when that happened?
Boltfan makes a good point, the depths of poverty elsewhere, like India, Brazil, Mexico City, etc. is vastly different than the poverty we know here. We three have seen it first hand and it ain't pretty.
a bit off-topic but since your avatar is one of my fav movies (and novel by Anthony Burgess) how about a little trivia about Alex and his droogs?
What does Darth Vader have in common with Alex?
- CenterLock
- 10-25-2010, 08:58 PM
I truly wish I had the time to give the full response I'd like to give, but to briefly address a few points:
1. "Free" countries impose their will on the populace all the time. They just do it in a different manner (starting with a reason why - regardless of the truthfulness of that reason)
All threats - define threat. Guns drawn? Education system failing? Massive overspending? I view all as threats to this country - and that's just the first three I could type.
4. Population control, L4L? Really? In America? Surely you jest. We're too "civilized". Instead we'd just spend more to provide inadequate services to even more people.
No reason to riot, Waco? Really? Small example: LA. Larger scenario: you're free to prosper but there are not enough resources to do so. Or... take the humanity into account: since when does there have to be a logical reason for people to do things?
We did not write the book on capitalism any more than the Chinese. We just based a new country on the ideals - and China adapted them to fit their regime.
Really is a good thread...
1. "Free" countries impose their will on the populace all the time. They just do it in a different manner (starting with a reason why - regardless of the truthfulness of that reason)
All threats - define threat. Guns drawn? Education system failing? Massive overspending? I view all as threats to this country - and that's just the first three I could type.
4. Population control, L4L? Really? In America? Surely you jest. We're too "civilized". Instead we'd just spend more to provide inadequate services to even more people.
No reason to riot, Waco? Really? Small example: LA. Larger scenario: you're free to prosper but there are not enough resources to do so. Or... take the humanity into account: since when does there have to be a logical reason for people to do things?
We did not write the book on capitalism any more than the Chinese. We just based a new country on the ideals - and China adapted them to fit their regime.
Really is a good thread...